Dutch football announce pilot scheme where a woman will play with a man's team in the 10th tier of Dutch football

SER19

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"Chip on shoulder" is, among other things, synonymous with entitlement. The other two accusations aren't particularly kind either.

And no, I haven't said anything about the exact type of person you are. I said that making the assumption that this was because of entitled women says something about you. In you case, that you have a particularly uncharitable view of women's football and/or its players. And no, you having coached women wouldn't make that impossible, given that you have coached women and still managed to describe them as a group having an "inferiority complex/chip on shoulder/constant obsession over position relative to male football."

It's also kind of precious that you're having a go at me making unkind assumptions about you, when I only addressed it because you made an unkind assumption with regards to the reason behind this.
No I didn't. I replied to the quoted text, and elaborated based on my feelings about the preoccupation many high profile voices in the women's game seem to have with men, in the very clear context of the way the OP presented this. Of course this is less relevant in terms of this specific girls story which isn't clear in the OP.

You said 'These knee-jerk reactions are extremely telling of the people that post them'

What is extremely telling. Stop projecting your obsession about 'entitled women' on me I didn't bloody say anything like that.
 
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Halftrack

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No I didn't. I replied to the quoted text, and elaborated based on my feelings about the preoccupation many high profile voices in the women's game seem to have with men, in the very clear context of the way the OP presented this. Of course this is less relevant in terms of this specific girls story which isn't clear in the OP.

You said 'These knee-jerk reactions are extremely telling of the people that post them'

What is extremely telling. Stop projecting your obsession about 'entitled women' on me I didn't bloody say anything like that.
I just fecking showed you were you did! Or have we moved on to denying reality now?

As for "what is extremely telling": The first post you made, I don't think there's ever been any ambiguity surrounding that. As for what I assumed, I've already explained it to you.

You keep acting as if your assumption was entirely reasonable. Pray tell, do you think it's reasonable to label women footballers as a group as having an "inferiority complex/chip on shoulder/constant obsession over position relative to male football"? Because if you don't, then there's nothing reasonable about the initial assumption you made. If you do, then my assumption about you is entirely reasonable.
 

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What is competitive for you? Is it just the PL?

If we are looking at the footballing pyramid of England for example and the clubs which are registered and could eventually get to the PL, I'd argue that is a competitive level and I most definitely would argue that there will be a woman who is physically superior to a man at that level. Once again, I'm not saying it is ALL women or ALL men.

It's the truth if you want to generalise, yeah. If you're capable of broadening your mind to the fact that not all females or males are the same (Even when it is confined to the small percentage of footballers that make it) then you can see how it is possible for a woman to have the potential to compete in a mixed game.
Competitive level in my understanding is any semiprofissional environment.
Marta wouldn't make it in the Conference, you might not believe it, but the best female teams in the world get thrashed by teenagers, which pretty much sums it all.
You are making this point because you completely underestimate the physical difference, it's not even close, some women are really strong but still they lose to men in so many physical aspects, which is why trans women who were formerly mediocre male athletes smash female records with hands tied, even after all the hormones they remain machines when compared to the biological females.
 

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Competitive level in my understanding is any semiprofissional environment.
Marta wouldn't make it in the Conference, you might not believe it, but the best female teams in the world get thrashed by teenagers, which pretty much sums it all.
You are making this point because you completely underestimate the physical difference, it's not even close, some women are really strong but still they lose to men in so many physical aspects, which is why trans women who were formerly mediocre male athletes smash female records with hands tied, even after all the hormones they remain machines when compared to the biological females.
I've already said that a female team would get beaten by a male team. It doesn't sum it all at once. 1 woman and 10 men against 11 woman or 11 men is very different to 11 women vs 11 men.

No, I do not underestimate the physical difference. I understand the differences and have already said multiple times I accept that on average men will be stronger than women and the quickest/strongest men in the world will be quickest/strongest women in the world. This is something that I have not denied throughout the thread. What I have repeatedly said is that there will be people of either sex that buck that trend.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself in this thread now, gonna dip.
 

Le Red

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I've already said that a female team would get beaten by a male team. It doesn't sum it all at once. 1 woman and 10 men against 11 woman or 11 men is very different to 11 women vs 11 men.

No, I do not underestimate the physical difference. I understand the differences and have already said multiple times I accept that on average men will be stronger than women and the quickest/strongest men in the world will be quickest/strongest women in the world. This is something that I have not denied throughout the thread. What I have repeatedly said is that there will be people of either sex that buck that trend.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself in this thread now, gonna dip.
You did make your point across better in this last post though.
I still think 11 men vs 10 men + 1 woman is a huge disadvantage, not to mention the risk for her health. Either players will go easy on her, which makes the competitive part of the game a farce, or they would tackle her like they would normally do and she's in risk of being severely injured.
I understand she wants to keep playing with the boys like she always did, but they are adults now and she's going to be facing against "enemy" grown ups. I really doubt her friends go tough on her in training.
I also maintain that the nature of contact is a real concern. A lot of the groping that goes on in the game could easily be deemed a sexual offence if done by a man to a woman, specially in today's climate.
Point being, mixing men and women in any contact sport should be a major don't.
 

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You did make your point across better in this last post though.
I still think 11 men vs 10 men + 1 woman is a huge disadvantage, not to mention the risk for her health. Either players will go easy on her, which makes the competitive part of the game a farce, or they would tackle her like they would normally do and she's in risk of being severely injured.
I understand she wants to keep playing with the boys like she always did, but they are adults now and she's going to be facing against "enemy" grown ups. I really doubt her friends go tough on her in training.
I also maintain that the nature of contact is a real concern. A lot of the groping that goes on in the game could easily be deemed a sexual offence if done by a man to a woman, specially in today's climate.
Point being, mixing men and women in any contact sport should be a major don't.
It's amateur level, not the premier league though. At that level, you regularly see young kids who are clearly not physically developed playing, or old dudes who can barely run making up numbers when teams are short. Having a girl playing isn't going to be any different. If the team wants to play her, then it is up to them.
 

Number32

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I've already said that a female team would get beaten by a male team. It doesn't sum it all at once. 1 woman and 10 men against 11 woman or 11 men is very different to 11 women vs 11 men.

No, I do not underestimate the physical difference. I understand the differences and have already said multiple times I accept that on average men will be stronger than women and the quickest/strongest men in the world will be quickest/strongest women in the world. This is something that I have not denied throughout the thread. What I have repeatedly said is that there will be people of either sex that buck that trend.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself in this thread now, gonna dip.
What's the point of discussing either sex that buck the trend in a professional sport? There is a huge gap between that trend in amateur sports let alone professional.
It's not just testosterone hormone and physicality, women has more sensitive spots too, and hundreds of other reason why it's impossible to mix the gender in full body contact sports.
 

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Because someone from a town with 2000 people don't even have a women's team and she isn't good enough to market and grow women's football anyway.

The point of this isn't to make the best women players in the world play in semi-professional men's football teams, why would they want to?
I don't know why they would want to...that was my point!

The title of the thread is a bit misleading really, a 'pilot scheme' suggests that she is playing with the men as some kind of experiment to determine whether you could have mixed teams at a lower level. If it's just simply the case that there's no women's team and she wants to play for the men's team then don't see any issue at all.
 

NotThatSoph

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You are making this point because you completely underestimate the physical difference, it's not even close, some women are really strong but still they lose to men in so many physical aspects, which is why trans women who were formerly mediocre male athletes smash female records with hands tied, even after all the hormones they remain machines when compared to the biological females.
This just isn't true.
 

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You did make your point across better in this last post though.
I still think 11 men vs 10 men + 1 woman is a huge disadvantage, not to mention the risk for her health. Either players will go easy on her, which makes the competitive part of the game a farce, or they would tackle her like they would normally do and she's in risk of being severely injured.
I understand she wants to keep playing with the boys like she always did, but they are adults now and she's going to be facing against "enemy" grown ups. I really doubt her friends go tough on her in training.
I also maintain that the nature of contact is a real concern. A lot of the groping that goes on in the game could easily be deemed a sexual offence if done by a man to a woman, specially in today's climate.
Point being, mixing men and women in any contact sport should be a major don't.
I don't get the bolded bit. If a woman manages to make it into a team that plays against 11 men, then obviously she has the physicality to deal with that. Otherwise she would have never made the team. We're not talking about the average woman here; it's about people that made it this far already.

Same with the woman in question. She has played league football with these guys all her life and is 19 (was it?) now. So she is fully grown, has played in the oldest youth leagues where everyone is around that age, and is therefore used to the physicality, both the roughness and the 'groping'. If that didn't work out for her, why would she or her club request that dispensation for her?

I get that it wouldn't work well to take 11 average men and 11 average women and mix them up into teams, but that's not what we're talking about here.
 

SER19

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I just fecking showed you were you did! Or have we moved on to denying reality now?

As for "what is extremely telling": The first post you made, I don't think there's ever been any ambiguity surrounding that. As for what I assumed, I've already explained it to you.

You keep acting as if your assumption was entirely reasonable. Pray tell, do you think it's reasonable to label women footballers as a group as having an "inferiority complex/chip on shoulder/constant obsession over position relative to male football"? Because if you don't, then there's nothing reasonable about the initial assumption you made. If you do, then my assumption about you is entirely reasonable.
Just going round in circles now but you're doing what the perennially offended do and lumping women broadly into one huge group. I absolutely believe many high profile voices in the women's game have an inferiority complex and preoccupation with the mens game that disserves the women's game and raises nonsensical comparative conversations between men and women. I also believe there are high profile women that are a credit to their sport and hope female football thrives. It might not suit your outrage that some people recognise diversity among a group that you want to put under one umbrella but that's your problem, not mine.

Presented in the text I quoted which by the way it was posted suggested a trial by Dutch football to move towards mixed football and my feeling that that conversation is decades away, and in light of several high profile discussions about women's football relative to the men's game, I felt quite happy to criticise what I see as damaging aspects of female footballs conversation.

You decided to lump me in with several other posts that outraged you and decided that it allowed you to make collective judgement about strangers and the type of people they are. My advice, which you don't have to take, is to not do that. It's a toxic, Internet fuelled trend that sees people instantly place others into some vaguely constructed group that makes one feel good about themselves because of the most minimal thing that has affronted them. By all means carry on doing it, but expect me to take exception to what I see as true arrogance and self righteousness every time you include me.
 

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Just going round in circles now but you're doing what the perennially offended do and lumping women broadly into one huge group. I absolutely believe many high profile voices in the women's game have an inferiority complex and preoccupation with the mens game that disserves the women's game and raises nonsensical comparative conversations between men and women. I also believe there are high profile women that are a credit to their sport and hope female football thrives. It might not suit your outrage that some people recognise diversity among a group that you want to put under one umbrella but that's your problem, not mine.

Presented in the text I quoted which by the way it was posted suggested a trial by Dutch football to move towards mixed football and my feeling that that conversation is decades away, and in light of several high profile discussions about women's football relative to the men's game, I felt quite happy to criticise what I see as damaging aspects of female footballs conversation.

You decided to lump me in with several other posts that outraged you and decided that it allowed you to make collective judgement about strangers and the type of people they are. My advice, which you don't have to take, is to not do that. It's a toxic, Internet fuelled trend that sees people instantly place others into some vaguely constructed group that makes one feel good about themselves because of the most minimal thing that has affronted them. By all means carry on doing it, but expect me to take exception to what I see as true arrogance and self righteousness every time you include me.
Except it was you who did the generalising, I just responded to it.

Assuming this was the first step towards a possible full integration of women in men's football is not an unreasonable assumption to make (though there was a link in the title that would have told you otherwise, in addition to a several posts in the thread had you just bothered to read), and isn't the one I took issue with either. The assumption that this was because women footballers have an "inferiority complex/chip on shoulder/constant obsession over position relative to male football" was, because there was nothing whatsoever in the OP to suggest this was the result of a push, a campaign, demands or complaints.

You didn't read, you made some assumptions, and instead of going "my bad" you doubled down on how not reading things is perfectly reasonable, and that when you use general terms, others are supposed to deduce that you obviously weren't actually speaking in general terms.
 

ghagua

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Yes, I'm serious asking that question. It was actually a rhetorical question, because it's absolutely obvious that someone who doesn't have a problem playing with 19 year olds physically will do fine against older players as well. It'll be harder, but the difference is nowhere close to big enough that you can't handle it. Especially when the 32 year old is one of the worst players playing organized football.

It's pretty hilarious that you're trying to insult me for asking that question. You actually believe that someone who is doing fine against 19 year olds will not even manage to be on the same field as someone a decade older. It's an insane thing to believe.

I, as a very physically fit, strong guy, would not be fit enough to compete with these athletes (not talking about skills), what makes you think a female would be able to cope competing against males in a contact sport? And yes, it was meant as an insult, it needs some logical thinking, something which you seem incapable of.
 

NotThatSoph

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I, as a very physically fit, strong guy, would not be fit enough to compete with these athletes (not talking about skills), what makes you think a female would be able to cope competing against males in a contact sport? And yes, it was meant as an insult, it needs some logical thinking, something which you seem incapable of.
Of course you would be, are you joking? Every adult man that is reasonably healthy is fit enough to play at the bottom of the amateur leagues. I did it as a 50 kg light 16 year old with a chronically bad back.
 

SER19

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Except it was you who did the generalising, I just responded to it.

Assuming this was the first step towards a possible full integration of women in men's football is not an unreasonable assumption to make (though there was a link in the title that would have told you otherwise, in addition to a several posts in the thread had you just bothered to read), and isn't the one I took issue with either. The assumption that this was because women footballers have an "inferiority complex/chip on shoulder/constant obsession over position relative to male football" was, because there was nothing whatsoever in the OP to suggest this was the result of a push, a campaign, demands or complaints.

You didn't read, you made some assumptions, and instead of going "my bad" you doubled down on how not reading things is perfectly reasonable, and that when you use general terms, others are supposed to deduce that you obviously weren't actually speaking in general terms.
No I didn't, I responded to the idea with my opinion which is informed by countless high profile talking points in the women's game in recent months. Perhaps your news from the women's game is tailored differently but what I have seen in huge volumes from high profile sources and outlets is discussion of the women's game relative to the men's. My own feelings are that it's better for the women's game when this stops and given the volume of these types of conversations and the op explicitly stating it was a trial with a view to seeing if women can join the men's game my reply is one I'm perfectly fine with. Expanding on the initiative with broader thoughts about mixed football and the narrative around 'women v men's game' might not be to your taste and that's fine, but my issue from the beginning has been your righteousness in deciding what it says about a person. I suspect something triggered a confirmation bias in you. Now you can keep going, but I've little else to add to you as I don't feel a conversation would be worthwhile at this point, only to reiterate that I will take exception next time you decide to insinuate or hint at 'what type of person' I am and seemingly lump me in with the other strangers who I or you have no idea are.
 

meamth

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At least I can point this out to the SJWs if it failed.

Of course it would, are you mad?
 

ghagua

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Of course you would be, are you joking? Every adult man that is reasonably healthy is fit enough to play at the bottom of the amateur leagues. I did it as a 50 kg light 16 year old with a chronically bad back.
Crap, I must be doing something wrong as it seems everyone on this site must be playing amateur league football. I'll just have to be a happy keyboard warrior.
 

OleBoiii

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I can't understand why anyone would get their knickers bunched up over this.
Yeah, I don't understand it either. What are they afraid will happen? That the woman gets injured? She's willingly taking the risk.

And it's not like every guy in the 10th tier in a small country is going to be an athlete or have a heavy build. I can guarantee you that there will be a bunch of skinny/tiny guys barely weighing 60 kilos. There's no reason an athletic woman weighing 70 kilos(+) wouldn't be able to keep up such amaeturs.
 

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Crap, I must be doing something wrong as it seems everyone on this site must be playing amateur league football. I'll just have to be a happy keyboard warrior.
If you want to play you can, nothing is stopping you. The woman in question is going to play for VV Foraút, from the village Menaldum with 2 600 people. They've got a team. My dad is from a village with 1 500 mostly old people. They don't have a restaurant, but they do have an amateur team.
 

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The manager may find it difficult convincing his players to be fully committed to every challenge on her. It's only natural to go easy, immediately putting your side at a disadvantage.
 

My only Eric

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I have one major concern regarding this..

Say during a corner kick, what happens when grabbing and pulling starts?

If some guy hits her ass or pulls her shirt (breasts) as they struggle for the ball, is he at risk of being accused of sexual misconduct?

If yes, then they should scrap this experiment.

If no, we all know some assholes will abuse this and sexually abuse her really bad.
 

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I have one major concern regarding this..

Say during a corner kick, what happens when grabbing and pulling starts?

If some guy hits her ass or pulls her shirt (breasts) as they struggle for the ball, is he at risk of being accused of sexual misconduct?

If yes, then they should scrap this experiment.

If no, we all know some assholes will abuse this and sexually abuse her really bad.
That's your major concern? That someone will be falsely accused of sexual misconduct? Why?
 

rcoobc

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I have one major concern regarding this..

Say during a corner kick, what happens when grabbing and pulling starts?

If some guy hits her ass or pulls her shirt (breasts) as they struggle for the ball, is he at risk of being accused of sexual misconduct?

If yes, then they should scrap this experiment.

If no, we all know some assholes will abuse this and sexually abuse her really bad.
Does this type of thing happen to you often?

"I didn't mean to touch her arse chief, I was only trying to open the door for her!"
 

adexkola

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I have one major concern regarding this..

Say during a corner kick, what happens when grabbing and pulling starts?

If some guy hits her ass or pulls her shirt (breasts) as they struggle for the ball, is he at risk of being accused of sexual misconduct?

If yes, then they should scrap this experiment.

If no, we all know some assholes will abuse this and sexually abuse her really bad.
I've played many a game with women. This has never been an issue.
 

rcoobc

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There is zero reason that women shouldn't be able to compete in the men's leagues.

Zero

None

Nada.

Just like a 14 year old can play in the under 16s. But 16 year olds can't play in the under 14s.

If she is good enough, she can play.

Men playing in the womens leagues, however, is a no.
Come at me
 

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There is zero reason that women shouldn't be able to compete in the men's leagues.

Zero

None

Nada.

Just like a 14 year old can play in the under 16s. But 16 year olds can't play in the under 14s.

If she is good enough, she can play.

Men playing in the womens leagues, however, is a no.
Come at me
Fully agree.

I also don't get this 'women are so much physically weaker'. Well, yes, in average a woman is physically weaker than a man. But many are much stronger than the average man. Or faster, or bigger etc. And this is the 10th level of Dutch football, essentially a regional amateur league. A woman who is good at football would perfectly fit (IMO, even in a much higher level) than that.

I know that people use U16 of males beating women's teams, but those same U16 would also toy with amateur teams. We are talking for the U16 of the best national teams, those are really talented kids.

And well, if she finds out that she cannot compete, that she would just stop playing. So, it is all fine.
 

Revan

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I, as a very physically fit, strong guy, would not be fit enough to compete with these athletes (not talking about skills), what makes you think a female would be able to cope competing against males in a contact sport? And yes, it was meant as an insult, it needs some logical thinking, something which you seem incapable of.
It is 10th level of Dutch football, anyone who can run and has played football in their life would be able to compete at that level.
 

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If anything this sort of decision will bring on the womens game which is only a good thing. I don't think there should be a hard barrier but the best players should play. I'm not sure practically how it would work in the current culture but i suppose that's on the existing system to allow for this to happen.
 

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If you want to play you can, nothing is stopping you. The woman in question is going to play for VV Foraút, from the village Menaldum with 2 600 people. They've got a team. My dad is from a village with 1 500 mostly old people. They don't have a restaurant, but they do have an amateur team.
Actually, their website says they have three regular adult teams, as well as one for players 35+ and another for players 45+. So it might not be a given you'll end up in that first team. (I'm sure I wouldn't have. :annoyed: )

Football is far and away the most popular men's sport in the Netherlands and it's very organized, so even those small towns can have clubs with multiple adult teams and youth teams at various age groups.

It is 10th level of Dutch football, anyone who can run and has played football in their life would be able to compete at that level.
My club in my hometown played on the same level. I played since I was 8, but I never stood any kind of chance to get into the first adult team. I wouldn't even have been able to make it into the second team (the reserves). So it's not that obvious, and this woman is probably better than I ever was. (Able male of average height and build - just not very skilled.)
 
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limerickcitykid

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Fully agree.

I also don't get this 'women are so much physically weaker'. Well, yes, in average a woman is physically weaker than a man. But many are much stronger than the average man. Or faster, or bigger etc. And this is the 10th level of Dutch football, essentially a regional amateur league. A woman who is good at football would perfectly fit (IMO, even in a much higher level) than that.

I know that people use U16 of males beating women's teams, but those same U16 would also toy with amateur teams. We are talking for the U16 of the best national teams, those are really talented kids.

And well, if she finds out that she cannot compete, that she would just stop playing. So, it is all fine.
The matches referenced are not u16s of the best national teams. It’s u15s of MLS and A-League academies. The kids aren’t amazingly talented, and a great deal of those wouldn’t be making it pro.

And they almost certainly wouldn’t be toying with any decent amateur team.Toronto FCs u18s has played in an amateur league and they didn’t toy with them, let alone an u15s side.
 

My only Eric

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I'm not saying she shouldn't play in the male team. If she's good enough.

However, there should be some sort of protection for the players just in case.
 

MiceOnMeth

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So some claim the physical difference between the average man and woman is vast and this girl will struggle and others think the physical disparity is overstated and a very fit woman will have no problems rubbing shoulders with these amateur chapeys.. Any studies that back either claim up?
 

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I'm not saying she shouldn't play in the male team. If she's good enough.

However, there should be some sort of protection for the players just in case.
Just in case of what? In case they're falsely accused of sexual misconduct by the female player? Do you honestly think there's a risk of this?
 

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So some claim the physical difference between the average man and woman is vast and this girl will struggle and others think the physical disparity is overstated and a very fit woman will have no problems rubbing shoulders with these amateur chapeys.. Any studies that back either claim up?
Well, we have a case study here of a woman who has played with guys all her life, wants to continuing doing so, and is accepted in the team by the guys. I'd say that indicates that she can manage herself in the relevant male football environment (Dutch 10th tier). Not a huge sample, but it's something at least.
 

My only Eric

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Just in case of what? In case they're falsely accused of sexual misconduct by the female player? Do you honestly think there's a risk of this?
Yes I do believe there is a risk of this.
No, it will not be common but it will inevitably happen if enough matches get mixed.

When millions and cups are on the line, not everyone will play fair.

Again, it will be extremely rare, however, being proactive in solving potential problems never hurts.

The reason I emphasize on this, is because I've witnessed something similar happen over some stupid 'friendly' competition with almost nothing valuable at risk.