Are the premier league sides ahead of the rest of Europe these days

Not really. There are an elite group that are ahead of everyone else: city, bayern, Liverpool, Madrid, Barca & PSG. Arguably add in Atletico (probably harsh on atletico for me to have an “arguably”) and Juve (but they’ve both regressed from previous years). This “group” has just been made more competitive by the rebuild of Madrid/Barca and the emergence of Pool/City.

The rest are all fair game without much dominance, but the English counterparts (United, Chelsea etc) are infinitely wealthier than the other clubs in the next category.

If United & Chelsea get their spending right and their managers progress to the next level, they could well join that first group. But it could easily not happen as spending doesn’t equate to progress.

Edit: @MadMike correction PSG probably shouldn’t be named in the elite as they’ve achieved nothing of note. I’ve just always seen them as one of the favorites, even though they always seem to choke, without fail.

The Premier League is just about the best quality in Europe at the moment. Bayern are excellent and are on that sort of level.

I’d say the top two English clubs are better than any side in La Liga or Serie A. I know Liverpool went out of the Champions League, but that happens in knockout competition.

More worrying for La Liga will be that both Barca and Real are going to need something of a rebuild in the coming seasons as they are on the decline at the moment. Juventus, the best side in Serie A, are pretty poor at the moment too by their standards and are in the same boat.

Ish said:

Not really. There are an elite group that are ahead of everyone else: city, bayern, Liverpool, Madrid, Barca & PSG. Arguably add in Atletico (probably harsh on atletico for me to have an “arguably”) and Juve (but they’ve both regressed from previous years). This “group” has just been made more competitive by the rebuild of Madrid/Barca and the emergence of Pool/City.

The rest are all fair game without much dominance, but the English counterparts (United, Chelsea etc) are infinitely wealthier than the other clubs in the next category.

If United & Chelsea get their spending right and their managers progress to the next level, they could well join that first group. But it could easily not happen as spending doesn’t equate to progress.

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Not sure how PSG are top 6 elite ahead of everyone else. They’ve been struggling in knockout stages of CL since forever. Last 3 years they got knocked out in round of 16. Best they’ve done in a decade is quarter finals. They get knocked out every time they meet formidable opposition. Opposite of elite.

Barca and Madrid are bang average now compared to where they were. Atletico are still a seriously tough team to beat on a big night and Bayern are cut above everyone else out there.

No reason why ourselves, Liverpool and City can’t challenge for the Cl for the next few years

MadMike said:

Not sure how PSG are top 6 elite ahead of everyone else. They’ve been struggling in knockout stages of CL since forever. Last 3 years they got knocked out in round of 16. Best they’ve done in a decade is quarter finals. They get knocked out every time they meet formidable opposition. Opposite of elite.

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Agreed. Only teams I’d want to avoid next year if we were in the CL knock out stages would be Bayern and Atletico. Absolutely no fear of any of those other teams, every one of them is there for the taking.

MadMike said:

Not sure how PSG are top 6 elite ahead of everyone else. They’ve been struggling in knockout stages of CL since forever. Last 3 years they got knocked out in round of 16. Best they’ve done in a decade is quarter finals. They get knocked out every time they meet formidable opposition. Opposite of elite.

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Agreed with that mike. I guess I should have clarified my definition of elite (in that context) or just changed the word from elite to “favorites”. They’re usually there or thereabouts but agreed with the jist of what you say - they haven’t earned the right to be named amongst the top 5-6 in Europe.

Put in a edit/disclaimer to my post

Mark_Barca said:

Might be the worst post Ive ever read.

The claim sides like Brighton, Norwich, Newcastle etc are well ahead of sides in other leagues is utter nonsense. The lower sides in England are horrific.

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Yeah, the same Brighton who beat Spurs and Arsenal (twice), and took points off Chelsea and Leicester.

Or Newcastle who also beat Spurs, along with us, Chelsea, and drew with City.

Compared to the 13th and 15th placed teams in Spain who managed to beat one top 4 team all season, between them.

11101 said:

Yeah, the same Brighton who beat Spurs and Arsenal (twice), and took points off Chelsea and Leicester.

Or Newcastle who also beat Spurs, along with us, Chelsea, and drew with City.

Compared to the 13th and 15th placed teams in Spain who managed to beat one top 4 team all season, between them.

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Spurs and Arsenal are not top 4 teams.

The tables have turned

Mark_Barca said:

Might be the worst post Ive ever read.

The claim sides like Brighton, Norwich, Newcastle etc are well ahead of sides in other leagues is utter nonsense. The lower sides in England are horrific.

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You claim the content of a post without substance is horrific only to reply without providing any kind of substance for your theory. That‘s horrible posting because it turns threads like this one into a back and forth without much if any content.

Liverpool - I think the A.Madrid defeat was actually really harsh on them, Atletico parked the bus and then a mistake by Liverpool's keeper opened the door for them to smash and grab.
City - The only team I can see having a chance at stopping Bayern.
Chelsea - Been a strange season in strange circumstances for them, spending a lot of money now so you'd expect them to put up a better fight in Europe next season if they did draw someone like Bayern again.
Spurs - Their "golden era" is over and I can't see them making top 4 again for a while. No surprise they were beaten by Leipzig, especially without Kane and Son. Europa is their level for the next few years.

United - one of the favourites for Europa this season and with Sancho and maybe a couple of others could be a threat in the CL next season.
Arsenal - God bless Arsenal may they never change.
Wolves - Still in Europa and will be a threat to Sevilla.

English sides on average are as good as any now, but it's very hard to argue they are ahead. Not all English sides are performing well obviously.

I'd say that to argue that EPL is ahead you'd need to have at least 3 out of 4 UCL representatives being genuine challengers for the crown. Like when Real, Barca and Atleti were competing for it and constantly making semis, in the years 13-18



Barcelona and Real Madrid are coming off, as the Ronaldo and Messi eras are coming to an end and those two behemoths have largely invested badly in recent years (especially Barca). It's too early to say if the EPL is ready to provide a period of relative dominance. This season hasn't followed up from the last when 3/4 semi-finalists were EPL teams. Tottenham and Chelsea were roundly beaten and the former have had an extremely poor season compared to last year's heights. Spurs' meteoric rise was a bit of a firework and not comparable to Atleti's steady rise and establishment among Europe's elite.

Chelsea and United are still in the building phase and not yet ready to be included in the same breath as City, Liverpool, Bayern, Juventus and the Spanish giants. If they manage to close the gap next season with good acquisitions, it remains to be seen.

11101 said:

Yeah, the same Brighton who beat Spurs and Arsenal (twice), and took points off Chelsea and Leicester.

Or Newcastle who also beat Spurs, along with us, Chelsea, and drew with City.

Compared to the 13th and 15th placed teams in Spain who managed to beat one top 4 team all season, between them.

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See that team 'Eintracht Frankfurt' that you said would be a relegation side in England, they hammered Bayern Munich 5-1 in November. They drew with Dortmund as well. Also beat RB Leipzig twice, that team that beat Spurs comfortably in the CL this year!

Narrowly lost to Bayern in cup SF, a side that spanked Chelsea and Spurs over two ties.

EF also won at Arsenal this season. Only lost on pens to Chelsea in SFs of Europa League last season.

But aye, would be like Norwich in the PL

Wade3 said:

You claim the content of a post without substance is horrific only to reply without providing any kind of substance for your theory. That‘s horrible posting because it turns threads like this one into a back and forth without much if any content.

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No substance is required when someone posts the most ridiculous suggestion that EF would be in a relegation battle in EPL.

rcoobc said:

If that

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both United and Chelsea are on an upward curve and will be a bigger force next season

Making a strong top four that is unrivalled

United favourites for the EL and City not far behind I the CL.

Always naysayers

MadMike said:

People who say Juventus are on the same level as our top 2, must not have watched Juventus much this season. That’s the only team who has consistently performed well out of Italy in recent years and they’ve been pretty poor (by their high standards) this year.

Bayern on the other hand, I completely agree with. They are at least on par, if not better, than our top 2 this season.

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If their respective games against us are anything to go by they're well ahead of even City and Liverpool at this point.

We went toe to toe against City and Liverpool and competed, Bayern tore us to shreds.

There are times to have arguments about which is the stronger league. This is not one of those times. It only takes a quick glance at recent results to conclude that there is no stand out league in Europe at the moment.

Denis' cuff said:

both United and Chelsea are on an upward curve and will be a bigger force next season

Making a strong top four that is unrivalled

United favourites for the EL and City not far behind I the CL.

Always naysayers

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Top 5 in the bundesliga just as strong as United or Chelsea.

Chelsea just lost to a mid-table team in the FA Cup final.

11101 said:

Yeah, the same Brighton who beat Spurs and Arsenal (twice), and took points off Chelsea and Leicester.

Or Newcastle who also beat Spurs, along with us, Chelsea, and drew with City.

Compared to the 13th and 15th placed teams in Spain who managed to beat one top 4 team all season, between them.

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It doesn’t show the quality of Brighton/Newcastle but rather show the lack of quality of the “Top” clubs apart from City/Liverpool. The bottom 10 or so teams are absolutely shite in the PL just like in other leagues. It’s pointless to compare them.

I think the PL is the strongest. Used to be La liga, but it has declined recently.

rcoobc said:

Top 5 in the bundesliga just as strong as United or Chelsea.

Chelsea just lost to a mid-table team in the FA Cup final.

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I don't think so.

Both looking at how far 3rd-4th placed English clubs have advanced in the UCL in recent years vs German counterparts, as well as looking at EL... there's no much to support that statement. In UCL, Tottenham being a 3rd placed club made the final. How far did Schalke and Hoffenheim get?

And what about EL where EPL clubs have achieved 2 wins and an all-English final in the last 3 years, versus complete absence of German teams. And this year again English teams are appearing stronger.

To suggest Bundesliga is a strong in positions 3-6 as the EPL is a logical fallacy.

Eddy_JukeZ said:

I mean they've had more chances to win vs Pep's City than Klopp's Liverpool in the CL thus far.

You can't make the final every season.

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My point was on style of play and not really whether Liverpool are a good team. Pool are currently amongst the best teams Europe, but they don't look like they are dominating every game. They have spells of pressure and spells of being pressured. City on the other hand can make any team look bang average if they are on form. Problem with city is that when they are not on form, teams can set up to beat them in a one of game like United did in the league this season.

Mark_Barca said:

See that team 'Eintracht Frankfurt' that you said would be a relegation side in England, they hammered Bayern Munich 5-1 in November. They drew with Dortmund as well. Also beat RB Leipzig twice, that team that beat Spurs comfortably in the CL this year!

Narrowly lost to Bayern in cup SF, a side that spanked Chelsea and Spurs over two ties.

EF also won at Arsenal this season. Only lost on pens to Chelsea in SFs of Europa League last season.

But aye, would be like Norwich in the PL

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Yeah, so the team that came 9th in the Bundesliga is taking occasional scalps similar to the 15th placed team in the PL. Exactly my point. Brighton were in a relegation scrap until the last few games.

It's really not debatable that the PL is, team for team, stronger than the BL.

11101 said:

Yeah, so the team that came 9th in the Bundesliga is taking occasional scalps similar to the 15th placed team in the PL. Exactly my point. Brighton were in a relegation scrap until the last few games.

It's really not debatable that the PL is, team for team, stronger than the BL.

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Of course is debatable. There is no way to proof that some shit team in England is better than some shit team in Germany.

We can only prove top teams in a league are better than in some other league (EPL has improving but it is not far ahead, like for example Spain was for the most part of last decade), you can try to deduct the bottom but it is hard so, and there are many arguments against it (for example until winning the title, Liverpool being more dominant in this league - results wise - than any team has ever been in any top league. By itself this is a sign that the bottom is not very strong).

Weird timing of this thread considering the spankings Chelsea and Spurs have received at the hands of Bayern and Leipzig, and Liverpool being beaten by Atletico.

Still, English teams overall are the strongest in Europe. Premier League is the strongest league closely followed by Spain and then Germany.

Italy is a distance below, as the 4th league and the French League is just a joke.

The main difference from the earlier part of the last decade is the EPL now has two teams (currently) that can compete and lay individual claims to be the best side in Europe. That wasn’t an argument we could ever make in the past. It’s coincided with the end of the Messi - Ronaldo era and the PL getting a greater influx of quality coaches.

Teams like United Atletico BVB etc next season can also beat anyone on their day that’s the nature of knockout competition. An opponent might have a key player or a few key players out, injuries luck anything can happen in one off ties. We’ve had finalists in the last two seasons and both European winners were English sides.

There’s definitely a trend there that shows we’re a lot better than we were as a league. In terms of superiority it’s hard to argue. Taking league campaigns in to account people have said the quality of the leagues bottom sides is poor. Yet points totals for the 3/4th places sides have been the lowest they’ve been for a while. But would you bet against United beating a Juve/PSG/Madrid in a one off tie? It might not happen but it’s not unlikely or far fetched.

However as someone alluded to a lot of the European sides are in flux and may not reach the heights they once did even if they recover. Players like Messi and Ronaldo don’t come along often. Ole and Lampard haven’t really been tested yet in Europe. Chelsea with the way they play were always going to get a spanking off Bayern especially in European competition where teams like them are a lot easier to expose defensively, an area they already have deficiencies. Next season will be a good test for how strong the league is as they’ll be facing off with Europe’s other top 10-15 sides.

2005-2012, an English team in the CL final every year (bar 2010).

Hopefully we'll get back to that level of dominance. Unfortunately, if we do, it'll probably involve City, the twats.

MadMike said:

I don't think so.

Both looking at how far 3rd-4th placed English clubs have advanced in the UCL in recent years vs German counterparts, as well as looking at EL... there's no much to support that statement. In UCL, Tottenham being a 3rd placed club made the final. How far did Schalke and Hoffenheim get?

And what about EL where EPL clubs have achieved 2 wins and an all-English final in the last 3 years, versus complete absence of German teams. And this year again English teams are appearing stronger.

To suggest Bundesliga is a strong in positions 3-6 as the EPL is a logical fallacy.

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I doubt United of Chelsea or Leicester would have finished higher than 5th or 6th this year in the Bundesliga. Chelsea and United have improved a lot... Next year, yeah that's different. But hard on the last 15 months were way below.

Germany have 3 teams in the CL knockouts this season. Borussia Mönchengladbach were pushing Bayern for the top spot in the Bundesliga in the first half of the season.

The team that are most similar to United and Chelsea are Bayer Levekusen. Loads of highly talented youngsters. They're through to the Europa League Quarter finals. They missed out on the top 4 in Germany by a point or two, but could still qualify via the Europa League.

So, Germany: two teams left in the Champions League. Three got into the knockout phase. 5th placed team still in the Europa League fighting for CL football.

Vernon Philander said:

2005-2012, an English team in the CL final every year (bar 2010).

Hopefully we'll get back to that level of dominance. Unfortunately, if we do, it'll probably involve City, the twats.

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Why would you want that sort of dominance? Surely only United doing well in the CL is the only thing we should hope for

I’d say the bottom 10 in the PL is better than any other league, and a large part of that is due to the $ those smaller teams get from the TV deal. Whereas if you look at the top 6-7 teams in each top 4 league I think the gap is far less overall.

German teams are the best they’ve been in a while, the issue for them is that either Bayern scoops up most of their players, or teams from abroad start picking apart the likes of Dortmund, Leipzig, Bayer, but the ability to pick up good talents and get the most out of them for 2-3 years remains strong.

The Italian league is on the rise outside of Juve. The Milan clubs finally appear to have their act together, especially Inter, Roma with new ownership looks promising, Lazio has a chance at CL football and serious investment in the squad for the first time in a while, Atalanta should have a few years left in their cycle, and Napoli has shown some real potential under Gattuso, along with the willingness to invest in the squad.

Spain is just a strong league overall, the results in Europe over the years prove that.

Lay said:

Why would you want that sort of dominance? Surely only United doing well in the CL is the only thing we should hope for

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I'm a football fan - we'd get to see the strongest in Europe in our very league which makes for exciting viewing

The PL was abysmal this year. We got third with a record low points total.

People just assume that more money = better league but that hasn't been the case in the PL for a very long time.

Funnily enough, this should have been the time for English teams to capitalize. The other major European leagues have all weakened in the last few years and instead of English teams using their muscle to assert dominance, they've still largely been shite in Europe, Liverpool aside.

Massive Spanner said:

The PL was abysmal this year. We got third with a record low points total.

People just assume that more money = better league but that hasn't been the case in the PL for a very long time.

Funnily enough, this should have been the time for English teams to capitalize. The other major European leagues have all weakened in the last few years and instead of English teams using their muscle to assert dominance, they've still largely been shite in Europe, Liverpool aside.

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Last year both the CL and Europa finals were all English teams. Could quite easily be City and United in the finals this year. United and Chelsea should be stronger next year too in the CL.

Massive Spanner said:

The PL was abysmal this year. We got third with a record low points total.

People just assume that more money = better league but that hasn't been the case in the PL for a very long time.

Funnily enough, this should have been the time for English teams to capitalize. The other major European leagues have all weakened in the last few years and instead of English teams using their muscle to assert dominance, they've still largely been shite in Europe, Liverpool aside.

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Agree.

The way money is wasted by some clubs is absolutely shocking as well. All the extra TV cash has done is inflate the price of average players, see Bournemouth and Fulham before they got relegate in 2019, loads of other examples of teams spending, spending spending and still being awful. Quality of the league isn't any better than 10 years ago

dbs235 said:

Last year both the CL and Europa finals were all English teams. Could quite easily be City and United in the finals this year. United and Chelsea should be stronger next year too in the CL.

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I've heard this every year about English teams and the CL and apart from Liverpool and maybe Spurs last year it never happens. City were supposed to dominate it, we were supposed to become big hitters again, Chelsea were supposed to get better, bla bla bla. Fact is until it actually happens we can't just assume that it will because there's no evidence to back it up. You're just assuming it will because, again, Utd and Chelsea look like they're spending big this summer, which, as we've seen before, guarantees nothing.

I'd say last season was the exception rather than the rule, too. No doubt Liverpool overall were the best team in Europe but Spurs were incredibly lucky throughout (like Chelsea in 2012) and got shown up by them in the final.

The Europa is probably a better argument for the teams in 5th - 8th in the PL being stronger than their European counterparts in fairness, which there is a legit claim for, especially as the Spanish teams who largely dominated the Europa League before that have all gotten a lot weaker

English teams continue to shit themselves in Europe.

Expecting United will be easily dispatched on tomorrow too.

We mocked France and Germany to a lesser extent for years. But Frances 7th best team gets in the semi finals. I apologise @JPRouve.

Evidently not.

Bojan11 said:

We mocked France and Germany to a lesser extent for years. But Frances 7th best team gets in the semi finals. I apologise @JPRouve.

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I always knew Germany was getting undeserved critics, because that league is seriously strong, just not competitive for the title because Bayern is a juggernaut, but two French teams really is something I never expected.