Not bad for a PE teacher.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Why leave out Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Fred and Dalot from your list?
It's true that Ole has been backed too, but don't counter a lie with another lie.
you're banging on the wrong door here mate. My criticism where more tactical. I am sure if you relax and rewatch some of our games we have played recently you will find it is difficult for us to bring the ball out of defense even against average teams. Our defenders take ages to do that and we are not even sure what sort of team we are, do we press or we dont? We tend to force playing through the centre and our wing play is poor, that much is obvious. Is it coaching or personnel ? I hope we sort it out soon.
I like all our players except if they stop to put in the effort. But criticism of AWB's ball playing ability is very valid especially for a 60m pound purchase playing for a club our size. I am not saying we should bin him but its unlikely to significantly improve with time as we saw with Smalling. My hope is Laird lives up to his potential so we have more options.
I am not Ole out man and I believe constructive criticism is valid as this place is not pyongyang.
He is a United fan though.
I appreciate Ole and I think this is the first time we are truly building something since Fergie but criticsm of how we play is valid. That is why we are fans. At the end of the Ole like every manager will be judged based on result but ina nutshell, I appreciate his work.
I think he is talking about the first window.
60 m pound? He was 45, possibly rising to 50? Are we just randomly adding 20% to transfer fees now?
I agree, we don't look great bringing the ball out from the back. I'm very relaxed watching United to be honest, because I enjoy it. You and many others here don't seem to. People here seem to expect everything to happen instantly. I understand, as do many others, that things take time.
AWB doesn't look great going forward. But he's improving. And, given time and his young age, I think he'll improve more. We're now actively trying to play out from the back a lot more. I don't particularly love it, but we're trying it. We're not great at it, but you know what they say about how you get to Carnegie Hall? The same rings true for things like bringing it out from the back, and pressing, and attacking patterns. Things are improving. Give it time. You'd rather someone comfortable on the ball, maybe Ole would rather someone who is better defensively. That seems to be the case, and our defence has improved massively this year. He has a vision, give him time to see it through.
Criticism of how we play is valid, I agree. But ... all the time? Do you not think he deserves some leeway as we rebuild? We've shown flashes recently that good stuff is coming - do you think it should be every single week?
I actually think a lot of people forget just how bad we were at times under Fergie. No team can play amazing stuff all the time. Since lockdown, we've been good more often than bad, in my opinion.
I mean we had some pretty decent play against FCK yesterday, even my mate who is a real Madrid supporter said United is going to win EL. He added that he havent seen United play this type of attacking football for some years. And he’s the type that always give United stick whenever he gets the chance. I told him we have been playing decent lately. So do me a favor and go watch all goals under ole for the last 7-8 months and compare it to the goals under Mourinho and LVG, and tell me you don’t see a pattern of play? The quality of the goals is just so obvious, that we are playing better.
Is a fans forum, I would be surprised with anything less.
I doubt the majority are saying sack him, they are just pointing the obvious about tactics and there level of conviction.
Ole has been immense especially with how he's gone about rebuilding the team and in my opinion he needs time. But when I see deficiencies in our game, I am obliged to state it as a fan whose opinion does not go beyond this web page.
I hope we bring in more technically gifted players in though, because the more we have the easy on the eye we will be to watch and win games.
Why limit it to that though? Must be to fit his agenda.
I think Ole has earned another go next season for our post-lockdown results but I wouldn't say no to replacing him with Nagelsmann if he were available.
Oh so because Ed didnt manage to sell some of the players it's Jose's fault?
Every manager when comes into a club has some targets that want to be delivered and some players that dont fit his playing style. It's not his fault or his job to get rid of the "deadwood".
You have to be open to seeing new and positive changes.
If you’re closed minded and entrenched in a ‘OGS is a PE teacher’ type opinion, and fear of being wrong in that view determines your self worth, you won’t ever see anything new or positive.
Such a strange definition of being backed.
I'd say, Moyes aside, all our managers have been backed. It can be argued that the club bottled it in Jose's final summer and should have backed him more.
Ole has arguably been backed the most, and will definitely be the most backed manager if we sign Sancho and a couple more this summer.
Genuinely asking how is Ole more backed than Jose or van gaal. Not saying Ole has not been backed but to say he has been the most backed manager when Jose and van gaal signed bunch of duds doesn't make sense.
The club didn't bottle it per se, rather Jose full on went in to to meltdown pretty soon after he had his contract renewed. Would you give him another CB after he purchased two already which for differing reasons, were not meeting standards? And that's before we consider his poor use of the resources which he already had.
Just so that I can wrap my head around what you're saying, are you actually arguing Ole will be backed more than Jose "I broke the world transfer record" Mourinho if he gets Sancho?
I mean, it's not like Ole hasn't earned that backing, considering he had to make do without said record purchase for prolonged period this season as well as Rashford and Martial. Or that he sold Lukaku, let go of his most consistent midfielder in Herrera and the most highly paid player in the squad. A squad which he has supplemented with better defenders in the form of AWB and Maguire (which between them have meant that our once midtable-standard defence has improved to the extent that it is now the third best in the league, and only conceded three more than Liverpool's), or Bruno who transformed our season, or James who was our leading assist maker up until Bruno came in. And that's before we mention the improvements he has made to the likes of Martial, Rashford, McTominay, Fred, Shaw, et al.
Compare that to Jose's outlays, and we can see which one deserves the backing and which one needed binning off.
Currently I'd say its pretty even between Ole and Jose in terms of transfer outlay. The quality of the players the managers signed doesn't mean they weren't backed.
There seems to be some confusion between backing a manager and managers who were backed but signed shite. On the whole Ole has the best transfer record of all our post Fergie managers, I don't quite think his recruitment is as great as many others but overall he's done a very good job at bringing in better players. It cannot be deabted that if we sign Sancho this summer Ole is the most backed manager since Fergie. I'm not claiming that's a good or a bad thing.
100% yes. Don't really see how anyone can deny that. I get the impression you think I'm laying into Ole here, I'm really not.
See my answer further up to answer a lot of your points. I agree with you, currently, Ole deserves to be backed again this summer.
He has got the most money for season 1? Although the others got a lot too. Pogba cost a lot for Mourinho and Di Maria for LVG.
And yet Mourinho still came 2nd, with highest ever points score since SAF and was getting into cup finals (not semi's) and winning most of them for fun.
I love OGS and am happy he is at the club and hoping he does as well as I think he can. but this re-writing of history stinks. This agenda against Mourinho is not only tiresome but also never ever based on fact. Basically just a load of hot air.
Nothing, and I mean nothing, will ever make up for what he did during and after that Sevilla match. Nothing.
Ironically enough, he was the one who rewrote history with his football heritage comments. He spent the best part of 400m at that point, and had the barefaced cheek to talk about football heritage.
He said backed as much a Jose was. And you've conveniently left out Lindelof, Sanchez, Lukaku, Matic, Dalot, and Fred from your list, but that doesn't surprise me because the Ole Out mob wouldn't touch the truth with a 10 foot pole as they know their hackneyed analysis doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
If you care (which you probably don't) the tally is 370m for Jose and 192 m for Ole.
Lets just also forget he sold a few players too. £75m for a striker. What did Jose sell?
Where did Jose finish in the league?
Also Jose didnt have a winter window, which means he got all his targets in the summer, Ole didnt. he has to wait till the winter.
If you really want to compare, then don't put Bruno in there and have him as a winter transfer.
Still 23.7% of the votes are for sacking him, absolutely staggering!!
So if he isn't given the chance to finish his rebuild, is it going to be the manager to get the sack?
We all know Ole will struggle with a top 4 battle with this squad. a couple injuries and we are struggling again.
Looks like the theme for Manutd, back the manager in his first few windows then coast through.
We all know Ole will struggle with a top 4 battle with this squad. a couple injuries and we are struggling again.
Looks like the theme for Manutd, back the manager in his first few windows then coast through.
Looking at money in and money out is far too narrow of a way to look at who has been backed properly. You need to account for whether players are just signed to fill gaps or improve the quality of the team.
Lukaku, AWB, Shaw for instance were signings to fill naturally created gaps, you can't say that's a manager being backed to the hilt as much as not sabotaged. In fact the amount of positions managers had to make do in is as good an indicator as money.
Maguire and Bruno on the flip side were brought into to directly strengthen and replace weaker options. Pogba for the fee has to fall into this category although we were short in that position and Lindeloff too.
If Sancho comes in Ole for me will have had 3 signings made to really strengthen the team. Looking back i think Jose had almost 3 at a push but cheaper (Pogba, Lindeloff, Sanchez), LvG perhaps only 1 in Di Maria/Martial and Moyes 1 in Mata.
We've spent a lot between those managers but we've had a lot to back fill in my opinion, not to open the debate again on what Sir Alex left us with though.
Lukaku, AWB, Shaw for instance were signings to fill naturally created gaps, you can't say that's a manager being backed to the hilt as much as not sabotaged. In fact the amount of positions managers had to make do in is as good an indicator as money.
Maguire and Bruno on the flip side were brought into to directly strengthen and replace weaker options. Pogba for the fee has to fall into this category although we were short in that position and Lindeloff too.
If Sancho comes in Ole for me will have had 3 signings made to really strengthen the team. Looking back i think Jose had almost 3 at a push but cheaper (Pogba, Lindeloff, Sanchez), LvG perhaps only 1 in Di Maria/Martial and Moyes 1 in Mata.
We've spent a lot between those managers but we've had a lot to back fill in my opinion, not to open the debate again on what Sir Alex left us with though.
It's reached the stage where both camps are lacking in nuance and equally annoying.
Imagine still living in JM`s rectuum after West Ham away game.
Before = League games before Bruno signed
After = League games after Bruno signed
Offensive Stats:
We're taking less shots but having more inside the penalty area. We've scored significantly more and when we do have a shot on target they're far more likely to result in a goal these days. We've made clear progress since Bruno joined, we're a far better attacking unit.
The defensive stats are impressive, I won't bore you with another table but the upshot is that we've reduced the accuracy of opponents, for example... only 36% of shots in the 6-yard box are on target after Bruno while before it was 55%. This in turn has resulted in a huge decrease in goals conceded. Going from conceding an average of 1.2 goals per game before Bruno to 0.3 after. Our defensive improvement coincided with Bruno helping the attack.
The progress we've made in the last 6 months isn't a fluke. We've improved across the board and look set to continue that progress into next season. It's still not title form, but it's not far off. But what we're really lacking is decent attacking options to come off the bench and score. We got 5 league goals this season from substitutes, Greenwood scored 3 of them. Lingard, James and McTominay all got 1.
After = League games after Bruno signed
Offensive Stats:
| Before | After | |
|---|---|---|
24 | 14 | League Games |
357 | 187 | Shots on Goal |
14.9 | 13.4 | Shots per Game |
47% | 39% | % of Shots Outside of Box |
46% | 57% | % of Shots in Penalty Area |
7% | 4% | % of Shots in 6-Yard Box |
35 | 30 | Goals Scored |
1.5 | 2.1 | Goals per Game |
14% | 17% | % of Goals Outside of Box |
66% | 73% | % of Goals in Penalty Area |
20% | 10% | % of Goals in 6-Yard Box |
9% | 17% | Conversion rate of SoT outside of Box |
32% | 50% | Conversion rate of SoT in Penalty Area |
54% | 75% | Conversion rate of SoT in 6-Yard Box |
We're taking less shots but having more inside the penalty area. We've scored significantly more and when we do have a shot on target they're far more likely to result in a goal these days. We've made clear progress since Bruno joined, we're a far better attacking unit.
The defensive stats are impressive, I won't bore you with another table but the upshot is that we've reduced the accuracy of opponents, for example... only 36% of shots in the 6-yard box are on target after Bruno while before it was 55%. This in turn has resulted in a huge decrease in goals conceded. Going from conceding an average of 1.2 goals per game before Bruno to 0.3 after. Our defensive improvement coincided with Bruno helping the attack.
The progress we've made in the last 6 months isn't a fluke. We've improved across the board and look set to continue that progress into next season. It's still not title form, but it's not far off. But what we're really lacking is decent attacking options to come off the bench and score. We got 5 league goals this season from substitutes, Greenwood scored 3 of them. Lingard, James and McTominay all got 1.
Well, 'bud' the fact people on here are citing the fact we finished 3rd, yet fail to mention we had the same points as last year is one. The fact we finished 33 points behind 1st is another.
This pretend psychatrist crusade which so many of Ole's blind followers seem to be on is also quite funny. We are not coming back to this thread for discussion about his future because we 'want to be proven right' but because the evidence on the pitch points to us having significant weaknesses associated with lack of cohesive approach to coaching.
Even if we won by 3 goals yesterday, it won't change the fact we rely on individuals to win us games, as opposed to scoring team goals. Rashford would still be inconsistent and our play would still lack direction. This is not an issue with ownership or fans failing to back the manager, it's an issue with coaching.
Getting upright because I called you bud? You're pleasant. This isn't a competition; no need to beat your chest. If you can't manage to behave in a civil way then, please, kindly sod off.
That's because finishing position is significantly more important than the points you finish with. We only got 79 points in our treble winning season, arguably the best team we've seen in the premier League era. That's the 3rd lowest points tally in the prem league era. That's why finishing position within a league has markedly more context.
Great. So I'll ask again. Where is the facts and stats that substantiate this claim? You're just repeating the same statement after confidently telling us there's a plethora of facts and stats, far more than we are able to supply to support our stance. I would like you to tell me some.
I can't have that. That's complete and utter nonsense. I suppose it's an improvement on 'we can't break teams down,' and 'we can only score on the counter attack.' We've scored some truly wonderful team goals in recent months.
Ole sign this guy
Yes if we sign Sancho then one can say he has been the most backed but right now he is not the most backed. He has been backed, no doubt but Jose and van gaal were also backed and their signings were not that successful.
Also, considering people loved bringing net spend argument for Klopp, it has to be said we sold Lukaku for 70 odd million and also some other players. So his net spend is much less than Jose or van gaal.
Very good post, liked the analysis.
The bit about goals from bench is shocking stat, something we should improve a lot. It's sort of ironic too that we don't have goals from bench when we have Ole as manager
I thought that you would get that I was talking about each ones first (full) season.
Also I mentioned in my previous post that it's not the managers job to sell players. He has a list of players that doesn't match/want and he handles them to his superiors. Then they inform their players agents to find a team.
I don't see the manager of Dortmund telling us that Sancho is not for sale. It's been Zorc all this time. Meaning a superior to the manager.
Exactly Ole's tally is 200m for his first (full) season. Dont start about which one had the better transfers or not. This is not the case here.
@romufc What do you mean where did Jose finish in the league?
Basically your whole post is laughable.
It wasn't that apparent, really. My mistake. Nevertheless, the difference in the summer windows still favours Jose. All that really says to me is that the club will back its managers in the transfer market, as any club would do especially for a new manager. Including Bruno is a bit unfair because Jose appears to have chosen not to sign anyone in the winter window of his first season.
Great post and very impressive the way you've gone about the statistics.
Probably wasted on here as most in this thread and in all the Ole threads, think we have average centre backs, full backs who need replacing and a midfield who will be found out against the "big" teams, the same "big" teams who we more than held our own against this season and a manager who won't be able to take us another step up the ladder.
First of all, I don't remember being rude to you. That other guy has tested mine and other people's patience, so if he wants to play the law man, he'll get treated accordingly.
As for the rest, you insert your opinion on pretty much anything I've written like a fact and you say I haven't provided evidence? Where's your evidence we're improving besides a comparison to the league from >20 years ago. Anyone that works with data would understand that recent comparisons are more pertinent if you actually want to analyse performance.
As for the fact we've scored some great goals, that's exactly the point. We've scored great individual goals due to the great talent we have in our first team. But very few of them have any kind of pattern that you can ascribe to us as a team. I don't get why this is so difficult to understand. For comparison, Klopp's and Pep's teams were definitely following a play book, even with the wrong personnel.
Finally, the 'eye test'. We just don't look great and while that may sound biased, the same thing could have been observed when we finished 2nd with Mourinho. What's changed is we're recruiting better but that doesn't mean we're getting the best out of this team.
As I've said, OGS has until the end of next season as far as I'm concerned (for all that's worth) but that doesn't mean he's free of criticism until then.
You said it, not me. You can continue posturing all you like. If your only answer is to ask me to provide mine then it paints a pretty strong picture. I've asked you, quite politely, to provide these facts and stats three times now. I think it's become abundantly clear you don't have them. Is that a fair assumption?
That wasn't my evidence of our improvement. I would think the records we've broke, the goals we've scored, the higher finishing position, the 18 less goals we've conceded, having the most clean sheets in Europe, losing only once in 24 games, going 14 games unbeaten in the league, reaching 3 semi finals, beating Chelsea and City 3 times in season (first manager ever to do that to pep btw) and the improvement in individual players, along with the vast improvement in squad moral and the very clear direction we are going in, not to mention having the youngest squad in the league with the most academy players in Europe, are all pretty good markers of how far we've come. Let's not forget this is Ole's first full season and the mess our squad was in when he took over.
And they'd also understand that removing context to those numbers and comparing them with entirely different variables, is not a good way to analyze data. Yet here we are, with you attempting to say points vs points is a better comparable than where the team actually finished. It's not only entirely flawed, it's pretty desperate.
Again, nonsense. We've scored some great team goals.
Yes, the eye test. No only do the stats stack up heavily in Oles favour, not only are be breaking records and holding enviable form, we've also looked very, very good. Which is why you have a whole host of neutrals and fans alike, whom have been very critical of us over the years now singing our praises. You are very much in the minority. When posters can't even give credit for that without forcing in a weak caveat, then we know where there agendas stand.
Yes, first full season so you are comparing the 2 saying Ole got more money to spend. He got backed just enough and produced the results, got top 4 which was the aim. Jose finished 6th in his first full season.
It isnt the managers job to sell players? So it it his job to buy players? what rubbish are you chatting about? So Ole decided to pay £80m for Maguire himself?
So, if the club sells players for £300m and buys players for £100m the manager has been backed? Are you so naive? Talking about my post being laughable.
You are so far Ole out that you are forming narratives just to suit you.
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