And yet we all seem to agree that all the back up players are all deadwood or unreliable, the ‘drop off’ in quality is too big for them to be trusted.
So how do you make a back up plan when that’s the case? Honestly I’d love to know
Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?
- Thread starter The Boy
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
So how do you make a back up plan when that’s the case? Honestly I’d love to know
Play the youths like Ole keeps claiming he's going to do instead of just playing them in pointless matches?
Drop the underperforming players?
Or you know actually play a formation which suits the players we have like a decent manager would do instead of just blaming the lack of quality players for his formation.
There's plenty of options that Ole can do but all he does is just persist with the same starting 11 every game and hopes for the best even when we keep dropping points.
Seems you've been trying to get me triggered with the accusatory statements and now the smiley. No need for all that, we're both fans here.
And we shall continue down the same path under yet another manager? We’re honestly just setting up managers to fail, Ed as director of footballing matters isn’t work, he is the 1 constant post Sir Alex, we can continue to blame the players and the managers, it will change nothing.
I think it is incorrect to say Ole has no system. Based on the following.
Against weaker teams Ole's tactic is to use Pogba and Bruno to play probing forward passes to Rashford-Martial-Greenwood repetitively until a defensive mistake is forced, hence our incredibly high number of penalties. Once a lead is established, United can then allow the opposition onto them and hope to break at pace again using Bruno, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood's speed and pick off opponents. Matic is perfect as a covering DM due to his physical presence and QB style passing range. Bruno was specifically chosen as a priority signing because of his willingness to force forward passes, even in situations where he might lose the ball. Its a matter of risk v reward.
Against stronger teams, Ole's tactic is to sit deep, invite pressure and then release our pacy forwards on the break. In these games he also tends to opt for more legs in midfield and may use McTominay ahead of Matic or Fred ahead of Pogba. If a lead is taken United can again sit back and look to pick off oponents on the break.
What I don't understand about this tactic though is his insistence on using Lindelof and Maguire in a high line, weaker teams with fast forwards exploit this again and again against us. I actually don't mind Lindelof as a player, I think he is decent on the ball and as a ball playing CB I actually prefer him to Maguire in that role. The problem is that he is completely useless 1vs1. Maguire is capable 1vs1 but only against large target men strikers. He gets beaten for pace all the time and looks embarrassingly bad when doing it. I understand that AWB was bought because of his ability to recover and sweep up behind these 2. However, I think it is painfully obvious that AWB can't cover for both of them and a pacy hard hitting defender needs to be bought to play alongside Maguire or Lindelof. I wonder if Ole thought Bailly or Tuanzebe would be this partner for Maguire but just hasn't developed. Maybe Mengi can be that guy, otherwise we need to invest in a pacy commanding CB. I don't have a huge amount of ideas for this option but I know Alaba is trying to force a move away from Bayern, there is talk of Koulibaly but he would be incredibly expensive. Funnily enough, if we had not signed Maguire, Soyuncu would probably be a better partner for Lindelof.
Against weaker teams Ole's tactic is to use Pogba and Bruno to play probing forward passes to Rashford-Martial-Greenwood repetitively until a defensive mistake is forced, hence our incredibly high number of penalties. Once a lead is established, United can then allow the opposition onto them and hope to break at pace again using Bruno, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood's speed and pick off opponents. Matic is perfect as a covering DM due to his physical presence and QB style passing range. Bruno was specifically chosen as a priority signing because of his willingness to force forward passes, even in situations where he might lose the ball. Its a matter of risk v reward.
Against stronger teams, Ole's tactic is to sit deep, invite pressure and then release our pacy forwards on the break. In these games he also tends to opt for more legs in midfield and may use McTominay ahead of Matic or Fred ahead of Pogba. If a lead is taken United can again sit back and look to pick off oponents on the break.
What I don't understand about this tactic though is his insistence on using Lindelof and Maguire in a high line, weaker teams with fast forwards exploit this again and again against us. I actually don't mind Lindelof as a player, I think he is decent on the ball and as a ball playing CB I actually prefer him to Maguire in that role. The problem is that he is completely useless 1vs1. Maguire is capable 1vs1 but only against large target men strikers. He gets beaten for pace all the time and looks embarrassingly bad when doing it. I understand that AWB was bought because of his ability to recover and sweep up behind these 2. However, I think it is painfully obvious that AWB can't cover for both of them and a pacy hard hitting defender needs to be bought to play alongside Maguire or Lindelof. I wonder if Ole thought Bailly or Tuanzebe would be this partner for Maguire but just hasn't developed. Maybe Mengi can be that guy, otherwise we need to invest in a pacy commanding CB. I don't have a huge amount of ideas for this option but I know Alaba is trying to force a move away from Bayern, there is talk of Koulibaly but he would be incredibly expensive. Funnily enough, if we had not signed Maguire, Soyuncu would probably be a better partner for Lindelof.
Even though I'm open to giving Ole more time, my one view has never changed until now: Ole will never get any job offers from other PL clubs. And that's saying something in itself.
One of the few sensible posts in this thread. Of course Ole has a system, whether it is the right one or not is debatable. But people saying he has no tactics and no system is pretty insulting really. Whether you rate him as a manager or not, Ole knows his football better than pretty much everyone on here, how he implements it and why are far more interesting topics than the repetitive he has know system, relies on individual skill etc etc
Unfortunately we have no choice. The only other alternative is try to remove Woodward/ Glazers and that's too unlikely to be any kind of strategy.
We have to keep hiring until we find a manager that can succeed despite Ed/ the board/ Glazers. That's the right man for the job at Old Trafford.
One game, with no training/pre-season for the team except half a week, and the Ole out camp is hyperactive again. Like last season and the unbeaten run from january, he will prove you wrong yet again. However, this time he will do better.
That is my prediction. And you doomsday people can go on predicting doom. The fact for me is that propably Ole is going to continue to get better and better results over time, even without getting the players he wants to come. Saying he has no system, that is just stupid. Saying he do not know how to coach is also stupid. And plain wrong. Debating his subs and lineups I can get. But the stupid nonsensic posts that Ole does not know what he does and do not know how to coach.. goies without saying that when you say stuff like that you have no clue what you are talking about. Ask someone he coached about it. Or maybe they do not know football either. Maybe only die hard keyboard fans that never even played football knows anything about how coaching and systems are used in football.. maybe not..
That is my prediction. And you doomsday people can go on predicting doom. The fact for me is that propably Ole is going to continue to get better and better results over time, even without getting the players he wants to come. Saying he has no system, that is just stupid. Saying he do not know how to coach is also stupid. And plain wrong. Debating his subs and lineups I can get. But the stupid nonsensic posts that Ole does not know what he does and do not know how to coach.. goies without saying that when you say stuff like that you have no clue what you are talking about. Ask someone he coached about it. Or maybe they do not know football either. Maybe only die hard keyboard fans that never even played football knows anything about how coaching and systems are used in football.. maybe not..
To be perfectly honest. We didnt start anyone new against Palace so they all should have been fully aware of the system of play.
Fitness certainly an issue, but that would also highlight when idividualism is the key to our success vs a cohesive system that gives us more than the sum of its parts
So are we full strength against Luton, getting more minutes in the legs and match sharpness or are we playing the 2nd string?
A good and solid formations doesn't change much, you make a few adjustment but the grand formation / lineup stays the same. We chop and changed formation too much it shows that we have no proper foundation.
And people should stop mentioning the lack of preseason, we're not the only team with the same situation, every other 19 clubs in the league have the same problem. It's not as if they have 3 months holidays and we only have 3 weeks.
And people should stop mentioning the lack of preseason, we're not the only team with the same situation, every other 19 clubs in the league have the same problem. It's not as if they have 3 months holidays and we only have 3 weeks.
Ole's success ratio is presently lower than Moyes was, when he was sacked
I don't think we can be to critical of lindelof , as Harry's partner. After all, Ole did give him a new 5 year contract when he took over !
When talking about British, you are referring to the likes of Lindegard, James, Brandon Williams, McTomminey, AWB ( who when he crosses the half way line, looks like a fish out of water ! ) and big Harry, the most expensive defender in world football. Playing with the likes of these guys in the 1st team squad, may win you a few games, but certainly not trophies !
Lesser teams are able to play quick passing football with targeted runs throughout games. We on the other hand are largely static, take several touches then scan the pitch for anyone open. I don't see an alternative conclusion other than our coaching is substandard.
This is such a dumb argument. Wolves played their final game of the season six days before us and their first game of this season, which they won, a week before us. They had the exact same amount of rest and preparation time, pretty much. Why wasn't it an issue for them like it was for us?
Ole is not really a “system” manager - not like Pep, Klopp or, at a lower level, Bielsa or Wilder. He’s more of a “go out there and enjoy your football,” manager, relying on the players‘ talents to work things out.
After two years i still don't see it. In attack it still depends on what 2 or 3 players will do on individual quality. I don't have that feeling that goal will come for sure.
And why we start games so slow and letargic? I know that many make examples how in big games we do well. Yes, we do. But in those games we stay back and play like underdog. Is that Man Utd today? How many times against smaller teams Ole after the game says; "first half wasn't good"?
And why we start games so slow and letargic? I know that many make examples how in big games we do well. Yes, we do. But in those games we stay back and play like underdog. Is that Man Utd today? How many times against smaller teams Ole after the game says; "first half wasn't good"?
As said, I was extremely critical of Ole's Brexit FC strategy taken at the beginning of the season. I had people here telling me that Ole needed his British core. I thought it was nonsense really as the British core was already in place (Rashford, Shaw, McT, Jesse, Young + Williams, Greenwood, Henderson, Tuanzebe and Mengi coming through). Not to forget that people like Pogba and Martial had been around for enough time to be considered as locals unless of course being British grant people some sort of super power. So I insisted on seeing the bigger picture and bring people in according to their characteristics and value. Maguire might have been great at Leicester but a slow CB in an already slow defence is madness especially on those prices. No CEO love his manager to come knocking at his door asking for a new CB having just spent 80m on that same position. Which is why I was happy that Ole had learnt from it first through Bruno then through VDB.
Having said that, the board knew Ole was learning on the job. We knew that we hired a manager whose only success was at Molde and who made an utter mess at Cardiff. Sure he's got potential, his heart is at the right place and if we manage to make him a great manager then he'll probably retire in it. However he needs ample help. Take Lampard as an example. Chelsea have a top DOF, they got a CEO who actually love football and they brought a horde of players to strengthen their side. We need to help Ole succeed else we're setting him to fail. The only way to do so is to open our purses and to build the football side of the club with a Football CEO, a DOF (with knowledge about managing) etc. Let the inexperienced manager be surrounded by experienced people who can help him and also stop him from making expensive mistakes. It's good for him and it is certainly good for us.
That’s just freestyle football
So after 1 game the crazy people are out in droves again. Our exciting playstyle after the Covid break completely forgotten after 1 loss. So now we're back to 'no system that i can see' again. You lot must have lost some of your memory during the lockdown.
Well he needs to decide if he wants to continue in the competition. If he plays the 2nd string its not going to end well result wise.
If he plays the 1st string we know what will happen.
No system, no tactics, over reliance on individual brilliance and when that doesnt work we can always blame fitness
For me Ole does have a system, we are trying to press more, win the ball high up and break with pace. We just don't have the right tools for the job at the moment.
I think we are in a place where we are going to win more than we lose but if we dont turn up for every game then we are liable to be turned over by the smaller teams who are at it for that day.
The result against palace is probably more down to fitness than squad depth but we are short in areas and over the season we will struggle to meet the demands of being in all competitions.
Any talk of Ole not being good enough is fickle as I thought he did a great job to get us in the top 4 last season. Not being backed by the board will be his biggest downfall IMO.
I think we are in a place where we are going to win more than we lose but if we dont turn up for every game then we are liable to be turned over by the smaller teams who are at it for that day.
The result against palace is probably more down to fitness than squad depth but we are short in areas and over the season we will struggle to meet the demands of being in all competitions.
Any talk of Ole not being good enough is fickle as I thought he did a great job to get us in the top 4 last season. Not being backed by the board will be his biggest downfall IMO.
United played their best football in years last season, just saying.
Nowadays, that is a ‘bad manager’.
There is absolutely no excuse for this team to be coached so poorly, to be so easily prone of getting pressed, and to be totally unable to press the opposition. That is simply poor coaching, and no amount of top quality player addition is gonna fix that.
We also have our best team in years (well starting eleven). Especially in attack. Ole is good when he has good players, but he doesn't have a system so it all falls to pieces ones two players are missing.
“Comfortably the third best team in the league” has turned to “overachieved to finish third” in the space of one game
Well, for about 10 games after signing Bruno.
Also, it's not a very high bar, is it? Our previous manager was José Mourinho, after all.
Yes, which needs top class footballers for it to work - I guess that’s why he wants to buy Sancho etc. Rather than Klopp's team which can do well with a midfield that included Wijnaldum, Henderson, etc or a Sheffield United team that ran us close last season with a bunch of fairly ordinary players.That’s just freestyle football
Wolves had 33 days between their 2 competitive games, we had 26. Not exactly same amount of rest days.
All but two of our first choice starting XI was involved with their national team in between, or suffering from Covid related issues which didnt allow for first team training. Don't know the numbers for Wolves, but definitely not as many as us. So, not exactly the same prep time for the first team.
Oh and this Wolves you talk of, just lost to a championship team last night.
Wonder which argument is dumber now.
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We should have won on Saturday, yes. But our players are definitely not as sharp as they would be given a better pre-season.
You might want to explain to me how there's only 26 days between August 16th and September 19th.
The one with the incorrect Maths?
My bad on the dates, took Aston Villa game as reference. Egg, meet my face.
We where the third best team post January the problem is now we used the summer to let 3+ clubs catch up or overtake us in that regard.
I understand your point about our off field issues and internationals but Wolves also have a smaller squad and actually quite a lot of international players too, I believe. Personally I think it's crazy to suggest our shocking performance on Saturday was a fitness thing when it didn't seem to affect them at all against Sheffield Utd.
If it was a fitness thing then for me, that's more proof that we are simply a poorly coached team. The coaches, manager, club etc. had plenty of time to prepare for this situation.
Ole's system is more reliant on the players he has than any other coach in the top half apart from Mourinho probably. It explains why we fall apart when a player or two is missing.
I've seen Guardiola sides still play his style of football when they had KDB, Silva and Fernandinho out. They might drop points but you could see there was a fundamental system. If we have Bruno or Pogba out, all of a sudden our play style changes and probably for the worse.
When two or more starters are out we look clueless. The replacements in the team also play nothing like the players they are replacing in the team. It just shows his 'system' is just about putting good players on the pitch together.
Like someone else mentioned, his main quality is motivating players and creating a good team atmosphere and if you have good players that will take you a long way. However without a clear playing style or top coaching ability, we will never truly be successful under him.
I've seen Guardiola sides still play his style of football when they had KDB, Silva and Fernandinho out. They might drop points but you could see there was a fundamental system. If we have Bruno or Pogba out, all of a sudden our play style changes and probably for the worse.
When two or more starters are out we look clueless. The replacements in the team also play nothing like the players they are replacing in the team. It just shows his 'system' is just about putting good players on the pitch together.
Like someone else mentioned, his main quality is motivating players and creating a good team atmosphere and if you have good players that will take you a long way. However without a clear playing style or top coaching ability, we will never truly be successful under him.
It is a very natural bias. People who think Ole is the right man for the job need to justify it to themselves and others why we were so bad in our opening game. On the other end people who want Ole sacked consider Bruno and other teams dropping off to be the reason we got to third.
We were at top of the table if you look at matches from Feb-2020 and that wouldn't have happened without a system or right players
I know we are still short of top players in 4/5 postions but with the team we have can do better in coming weeks. I think yesterday match was all down to not having proper preparation.
CB/DM/RW are priority and then a FB/CF for sure, We should not ignore the importance of having a proper DM and we can clearly see it when Matic plays but we cant depend on Matic for entire season.
We keep saying how important to fill these postions but we are still way off, Hope we will get atleast 2 other players .
I know we are still short of top players in 4/5 postions but with the team we have can do better in coming weeks. I think yesterday match was all down to not having proper preparation.
CB/DM/RW are priority and then a FB/CF for sure, We should not ignore the importance of having a proper DM and we can clearly see it when Matic plays but we cant depend on Matic for entire season.
We keep saying how important to fill these postions but we are still way off, Hope we will get atleast 2 other players .