Why does every single team in England play the same way against Liverpool? (i.e playing out from the back)

Wayne's World · Sep 28, 2020

I literally don't think I could think of anything more suicidal in English football is to try and play your way out from the back against a team who press as high as Liverpool. You are basically playing to their strengths by inviting the press on and letting the likes of Mane, Firmino and Salah to come right up and force a mistake from your backline. Watching Arsenal tonight and why would you want Rob Holding trying to dribble his way out from the back? He's not capable of doing it so why would you insist on it?

I actually think Klopp must be pissing himself laughing every night that he's system and style has still not been figured out yet he's been in the league since 2015. Five years he's been in England yet nobody seems to still know how to play against them and he can allow his full-backs to play as basically wingers for 80% of their games in the Premier League

Looking forward to Mings at the weekend trying to play it out from the back to an eventual mistake to allow Liverpool to score again.

mshnsh · Sep 28, 2020

Probably because Liverpool under Kopp press so much that every team is forced to play either that way or hoof the ball forward. Most top teams avoid hoofing the ball.

Wumminator · Sep 28, 2020

Why don’t they do what Liverpool do and just simply get every 50/50 decision their way?

groovyalbert · Sep 28, 2020

Hardly easy to go long with the best CB in the league waiting to mob up anything, plus they've got the most industrious midfield going. You'd be out on your feet by half time if you just kept inviting them on.

Wayne's World · Sep 28, 2020

groovyalbert said:
Hardly easy to go long with the best CB in the league waiting to mob up anything, plus they've got the most industrious midfield going. You'd be out on your feet by half time if you just kept inviting them on.

Exploit the flanks? You don't need to aim towards Van Dijk obviously but they are going to leave spaces when they are pressing you so go direct with your wingers and push forward.

Honestly don't understand trying to invite a team that good at pressing time and time again.

Bubz27 · Sep 28, 2020

Think they'll canter to this league as well. No one's stepping up.

FootballHQ · Sep 28, 2020

Burnley don't.

Actually only team in forever to get a point at Anfield although Liverpool had won the title by then.

James Peril · Sep 28, 2020

The OP is so naive it’s not worthy of a thread, but it’s the hatred of Liverpool taking its toll on people. Fair enough, it’s messing with my head too, but I’ve just given up on the delusion of them not being that great. They are in fact extremely good and they are a team from 1-11, every player has a purpose and they dictate every game. Moyes, Mourinho, Solskjær, Hodgson etc don’t really decide much, it’s Liverpool setting the pace and destroying whatever gameplan was there to begin with. Players are harrassed three times as hard as against any other team, they lose shape/control and start making mistakes. Of course the little room at the back is there for a reason, it’s a trap. You either fork it out for van Dijk to win the ball 100% or you pick that little angle where you see your player available, forgetting about three sharks biting the instant the ball is played. Again, it’s not teams being naive on purpose, it’s Liverpool dominating.

The only positive is that it won’t last forever and there isn’t a Klopp jr anywhere to replace him.

Josh 76 · Sep 28, 2020

Man to man marking the two full backs.
That would be interesting. No team has ever done that.

Morpheus 7 · Sep 28, 2020

Good thread, teams with dodgy players playing from the back. It's bad game management, you have to beat the press not invite it. Balls out to the wings isn't hoofball. Liverpool are a quality side but you need to target areas and get the ball up there, ask questions. I remember Newcastle beating Klopp press well a few years ago.

groovyalbert · Sep 28, 2020

Wayne's World said:
Exploit the flanks? You don't need to aim towards Van Dijk obviously but they are going to leave spaces when they are pressing you so go direct with your wingers and push forward.

Honestly don't understand trying to invite a team that good at pressing time and time again.

I think their flanks can be exploited, but it's a huge risk to commit to that. If they get the ball back, one of your flanks is immediately outnumbered by one of Mane/Robertson or Salah/TAA. Not a great prospect.

To play long to the flanks would require a CF who can pull out wide, dragging the CB with him, with engines running through the middle to lead the attack - to be fair, I could see the likes of Bruno and VDB doing this, but we'd need Martial/Rashford/Greenwood to work on their hold-up game.

Tapori · Sep 28, 2020

Josh 76 said:
Man to man marking the two full backs.
That would be interesting. No team has ever done that.

This.

Split striker plus diamond.

Crustanoid · Sep 28, 2020

I just think most teams don't bother turning up against them yet raise their game against us, Arsenal and more lately City and Chelsea. Their mediocrity for decades has caused every other team to slack off psychologically

paraguayo · Sep 28, 2020

Using logic, they shouldn't be so dominant on the ball with 3 defensive midfielders essentially but somehow it happens

Valley Blue · Sep 28, 2020

If & it’s a big if, you can break their press they open up in a big way. It’s the only way to beat them.....

VorZakone · Sep 28, 2020

paraguayo said:
Using logic, they shouldn't be so dominant on the ball with 3 defensive midfielders essentially but somehow it happens

Truth is, their midfielders all have solid technique and footballing IQ. They're not exactly Oriol Romeu or Victor Wanyama.

Ludens the Red · Sep 28, 2020

Wayne's World said:
I literally don't think I could think of anything more suicidal in English football is to try and play your way out from the back against a team who press as high as Liverpool. You are basically playing to their strengths by inviting the press on and letting the likes of Mane, Firmino and Salah to come right up and force a mistake from your backline. Watching Arsenal tonight and why would you want Rob Holding trying to dribble his way out from the back? He's not capable of doing it so why would you insist on it?

I actually think Klopp must be pissing himself laughing every night that he's system and style has still not been figured out yet he's been in the league since 2015. Five years he's been in England yet nobody seems to still know how to play against them and he can allow his full-backs to play as basically wingers for 80% of their games in the Premier League

Looking forward to Mings at the weekend trying to play it out from the back to an eventual mistake to allow Liverpool to score again.

You could understand it if they were using it to draw Liverpool in and then play into the spaces but Arsenal would beat a press than pass it back again to one of their centre backs. It was beyond stupid. They did it a lot last season under Emery then it stopped and suddenly it crept back in tonight.

el3mel · Sep 28, 2020

There's nothing called "system getting figured out". Just because you can think of a way to stop such system, it doesn't mean you can translate it to the pitch, and more importantly translate it to a successful way.

Wayne's World · Sep 28, 2020

Leroy The Red said:
You could understand it if they were using it to draw Liverpool in and then play into the spaces but Arsenal would beat a press than pass it back again to one of their centre backs. It was beyond stupid. They did it a lot last season under Emery then it stopped and suddenly it crept back in tonight.

Yeah that happened time and time again and eventually they would pass it inside for Mane to scoop up and take the ball or they give it away on the edge of their own box. I just can not understand it at all

Snow · Sep 28, 2020

el3mel said:
There's nothing called "system getting figured out". Just because you can think of a way to stop such system, it doesn't mean you can translate it to the pitch, and more importantly translate it to a successful way.

The sort of is but the problem is like you said, how do you make it work. Teams can't just switch between tactics willy nilly. Mourinho had a pretty decent idea how to beat Liverpool, i.e. he knew their weaknesses but that's just step 1. You also have to have a way to eploit the weaknesses and keeping a clean sheet whilst doing so. That's generally difficult against teams with better players who are also playing well.

Foxbatt · Sep 28, 2020

Jose did the same thing to Ajax in the EL final. Good passing is required for that. VD can be got at but you can't play against Liverpool the way they love to play.

Cheimoon · Sep 28, 2020

Snow said:
The sort of is but the problem is like you said, how do you make it work. Teams can't just switch between tactics willy nilly. Mourinho had a pretty decent idea how to beat Liverpool, i.e. he knew their weaknesses but that's just step 1. You also have to have a way to eploit the weaknesses and keeping a clean sheet whilst doing so. That's generally difficult against teams with better players who are also playing well.

I think this is hugely underestimated. People often say that teams should sit back against this team and press aggressively against that one, to exploit each team's weaknesses. But it doesn't work like that. Teams train on positioning and patterns of play, and the main goal is to get these so ingrained that they become instinctive, so that decision-making and confusion are limited. You can tweak that from one game to the next, but you can't switch it up completely each week. In that sense, if Arteta wants Arsenal to play in a way that's great for Liverpool, then he might just accept that his system will likely fail in these two matches against Liverpool - as long as he is convinced he'll get good results against (most) of the rest of the league.

VivaRonaldo85 · Sep 28, 2020

You’d like to think the better teams would analyse how Simeone set up to beat them at Anfield in the UCL. That was a tactical masterclass and shows you need a combination of a top class drilled system and very good players to implement it to stand any chance against this Liverpool team these days.

Fox_Chrys · Sep 29, 2020

That game is the most intense press I ever seen, Arsenal forced to pass to each other right at the back of the pitch.

Liverpool are extremely efficient, they press when they don't have the ball, and their transition play gets it forward very quickly without slow passing around the back.

Bastian · Sep 29, 2020

Cheimoon said:
I think this is hugely underestimated. People often say that teams should sit back against this team and press aggressively against that one, to exploit each team's weaknesses. But it doesn't work like that. Teams train on positioning and patterns of play, and the main goal is to get these so ingrained that they become instinctive, so that decision-making and confusion are limited. You can tweak that from one game to the next, but you can't switch it up completely each week. In that sense, if Arteta wants Arsenal to play in a way that's great for Liverpool, then he might just accept that his system will likely fail in these two matches against Liverpool - as long as he is convinced he'll get good results against (most) of the rest of the league.

You definitely need some tactical flexibility. Can't just accept that you'll fall short in a few matches because you only ever play one way. It's definitely not too much to have a plan b. Otherwise there would never have been great tacticians. Just good systems.

Cloud7 · Sep 29, 2020

el3mel said:
There's nothing called "system getting figured out". Just because you can think of a way to stop such system, it doesn't mean you can translate it to the pitch, and more importantly translate it to a successful way.

Yup, it's like the Robben argument all over again. "You know he's going to cut in on his left and shoot, it should be easy to stop him." And yet no one ever could.

The Boy · Sep 29, 2020

Wayne's World said:
Exploit the flanks? You don't need to aim towards Van Dijk obviously but they are going to leave spaces when they are pressing you so go direct with your wingers and push forward.

Honestly don't understand trying to invite a team that good at pressing time and time again.

This is exactly what Ole did last season isn't it? Let the FBs push forward and then exploit the space behind them and you were very unlucky not to win that game, I think they equalized very late in the game.

Cheimoon · Sep 29, 2020

Bastian said:
You definitely need some tactical flexibility. Can't just accept that you'll fall short in a few matches because you only ever play one way. It's definitely not too much to have a plan b. Otherwise there would never have been great tacticians. Just good systems.

Of course, I'm not disputing that. But people seem to think that a side that's used to pressing aggressively could effectively switch to sitting deep from one match to another. That just won't work. Well, they can try, but it won't be done very well. In practice, Plan B won't be completely different from Plan A; it's rather about tweaking things so different aspects of play are emphasized.

Of course, if you have examples of teams that really did manage to deploy radically different tactics/systems from one match to another, or even within matches, then I would happily stand corrected and be very interested to learn more. (I don't mean that sarcastically. Somehow it looks like that, but I'd be genuinely interested.)

Infordin · Sep 29, 2020

Player for player, Liverpool have the strongest XI in the league. It's not as simple as just "figuring out how they play". They have more quality than the teams they face and hence they win.

RedDevilCanuck · Sep 29, 2020

Fellaini.

DRJosh · Sep 29, 2020

Liverpool have enormous reserves of energy and that seems to underline their attacking play ...plus the relentless pressing. They attack to defend.

v0latile · Sep 29, 2020

Arteta: "We tried to put them under as much pressure as we could but Van Dijk plays 60 yards to Salah and they are out. This is real quality and that is why they have spent the money they have."

gajender · Sep 29, 2020

Crustanoid said:
I just think most teams don't bother turning up against them yet raise their game against us, Arsenal and more lately City and Chelsea. Their mediocrity for decades has caused every other team to slack off psychologically

Teams raising games against us is not a thing we aren't simply good enough currently that's why we lack consistency and it's same for other teams you have mentioned.
No body was raising their level against City when they were great two year running either suddenly when they aren't you get the impression teams are raising their game against them as well. It's not as if Liverpool don't give other teams chances but their game management is superb and they win the key moments in the match more often than not and they have the aura that everything needs to go against them for other teams to have chance and even then you might come short atleast in the league.

TwoSheds · Sep 29, 2020

If I had to play Liverpool tomorrow I would have my team positioned like this when they have the ball:

Rashford ---------------- Greenwood

---------------------Martial

-------------VdB---------------Bruno
------------------------Matic
Shaw Maguire ----------Bailly AWB
--------------------Henderson

I would have Matic picking up Firmino, centre backs quite wide to help pick up Salah and Mané, full backs are then more free to pick up Liverpool full backs if they do venture forward, and Rashford and Greenwood pushed really high to exploit the space behind their back 4. Greenwood in the space between Robertson and Gomez and Rashford quite wide.

Greck · Sep 29, 2020

The Boy said:
This is exactly what Ole did last season isn't it? Let the FBs push forward and then exploit the space behind them and you were very unlucky not to win that game, I think they equalized very late in the game.

Jose did it all the time. The problem was after the first couple hoofs down the flanks everyone knows where the ball is going and anticipate it better. There's only so much mileage you can get from that tactic

Strelok · Sep 29, 2020

Josh 76 said:
Man to man marking the two full backs.
That would be interesting. No team has ever done that.

Uh well we or more exactly Ole did this?

Not exactly man marking but he did try to nullify those 2 FBs by closing them really hard whenever they were near the ball. The plan was pretty sucessful if my memory serves me right.

Plus man marking their two FBs basically means your FBs would be left to deal with Mane and Salah alone. And that's even more dangerous I think.

TwoSheds said:
If I had to play Liverpool tomorrow I would have my team positioned like this when they have the ball:

Rashford ---------------- Greenwood

---------------------Martial

-------------VdB---------------Bruno
------------------------Matic
Shaw Maguire ----------Bailly AWB
--------------------Henderson

I would have Matic picking up Firmino, centre backs quite wide to help pick up Salah and Mané, full backs are then more free to pick up Liverpool full backs if they do venture forward, and Rashford and Greenwood pushed really high to exploit the space behind their back 4. Greenwood in the space between Robertson and Gomez and Rashford quite wide.

You'll be dead within minutes mate :lol:

Their attackers would drag your defence line out all over the place. Then their midfielders would overload your box with timing running. Especially into the space left open because your CB go wide. And they're good goal scorers.

Man marking is useful sometime but most of the time it's very ineffective and dangerous. Because your defenders would be easily dragged out of positions. You may use 1 or 2 at max but get all your defenders to man marking is suicidal. And you will have to have someone to cover them if they're dragged out. That's why all teams stick with zonal marking.

Untd55 · Sep 29, 2020

Against a team that has better players and well-drilled tactics, your chances of being able to overcome them are slim. It doesn't matter what you do; you may be able to pull one off every so often, but it will go against the norm.

They would be far easier to stop if their tactics were poorly implemented, but that is not the case.

jackal&hyde · Sep 29, 2020

The Boy said:
This is exactly what Ole did last season isn't it? Let the FBs push forward and then exploit the space behind them and you were very unlucky not to win that game, I think they equalized very late in the game.

Yes. Both games were on the edge.

Their full backs are to be exploited but they are a top team with exceptional players throughout. What i would like to see us do next game is Maguire to use his good passing to direct at the forwards on the flaks; much like VVD does with Salah or Mane.

DixieDean · Sep 29, 2020

What you're saying is that 1980's Wimbledon would have beat them.

cyberman · Sep 29, 2020

All of Liverpools creativity is from wide. Its mind boggling that everybody condenses the middle allowing space down the wings.
I can see us play split strikers against them. Have Martial and Rashford drift behind their FBs that either frees up space for Bruno or keeps their FB back.

Why does every single team in England play the same way against Liverpool? (i.e playing out from the back)

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