Our lack of intensity isn't due to being "unfit" or "tiredness"

UNITED ACADEMY

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This is now the 3rd stretch of games where fans have claimed that poor performances are due to tiredness. In fact if we're to believe those folk we haven't had a single patch of bad form that isn't anything but tiredness and fatigue.

We'd be a title winning team if it wasn't for the fact that unfortunately through no fault of our own the opposition are never quite as tired.
Almost all the games we didn’t win last season not because we lack intensity but because we failed to break down the low block. So how did we now lacking intensity all of sudden when we have same players, same coaching & manager?
 

Denis79

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It seems like our squad is perpetually either not fit (some excuse about the lack of pre-season) or as that excuses looks sillier it becomes an issue of "tiredness". Neither of the these two things seem to be as much of a chronic problem at other clubs.

What we're actually seeing isn't "unfit" players or "tired" players. It's just a lack of intensity. On and off the ball we don't play with a real purpose. We don't close the ball down as a team with a real purpose or intent behind it, neither do we pass or move the ball with any purpose. It's why we look cumbersome so people try and excuse this off as a "fitness" issue and then "tiredness".

You don't need 11 Ngolo Kantes to play with intensity. You just need to close space and press as a unit, and have a plan when you move the ball so players can play a lot quicker rather than decide their next move once the ball is at their feet.

Anyone else agree?
I also don't buy that fitness/match fitness is the sole reason why our intensity is so low, movement so bad. I have argued that it was a mentality problem but you might be right that it's tactical.
 

BR7

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The players pretty much became inconsistent in general after ole was given the job permanently. Ole isn’t great as a manger but those players and they know who they are need to ashamed of themselves but that is the post modern footballer. BR7 would’ve kicked their asses after a performance like that (to be fair the boll@cking would probably have been in the pub over 30 beers but they would still have had their verbals from him. Roy Keane would have destroyed them in the changing room and it was the carricks etc who started complaining about being given a rollicking and being singled out. They were the start of all this pay me sheeet loads, I’ll turn up 60% of the time but remember my feelings, you can’t shout at me for it...... when I was university football captain, I’d throw my players at each other half time or full time if we had those issues. I had a very hard Irish lad as the 1st x1 captain and when someone needed a word I’d take him aside HT or FT and let him know who needed a verbal drenching and leave him to it. Players need to be at each other’s throats sometimes and sort it out between them. This bunch are useless at it and don’t appear to give a dam about our beautiful club badge. Pogba is class but pure poison
 

Deery

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I think it’s more to do with the accumulation of games rather that the lack of preseason.

The season has just ended and we are straight into a new one, players will be feeling the effects of so many games PL, LC, CL, International’s.

We even seen in the Bundesliga that Bayern got spanked 4-1 and Liverpool 7-2 in the Prem. These are a couple of the best teams on the planet.

I won’t be surprised to see a lot of muscle injuries too in the coming weeks.
 

romufc

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I think it’s more to do with the accumulation of games rather that the lack of preseason.

The season has just ended and we are straight into a new one, players will be feeling the effects of so many games PL, LC, CL, International’s.

We even seen in the Bundesliga that Bayern got spanked 4-1 and Liverpool 7-2 in the Prem. These are a couple of the best teams on the planet.

I won’t be surprised to see a lot of muscle injuries too in the coming weeks.
This is not entirely true.

Because you mentioned Liverpool, lets compare them.

19/20 - minutes played.

Vam Djik4590Maguire4962
Robertson4242Lindelof4108
Salah4061AWB1047
Trent3991DDG3870
Firmino3921Martial3566
Mane3720Fred3545
Gini3644Rashford3473
Alisson3295James3005
Gomez3289Greenwood2592
Henderson3167Matic2560

Look at the difference, Liverpool have played alot more football at a higher level than Manutd players. They've had one bad game whereas United havent had 1 good game this season.

The problem is clearly how we prepare for games, it seems like we are so soft on the players. No player in this Manutd team carries any sort of responsibility for their own performance.
 

Smores

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Almost all the games we didn’t win last season not because we lack intensity but because we failed to break down the low block. So how did we now lacking intensity all of sudden when we have same players, same coaching & manager?
We've only shown any real intensity during the two patches of very good form we've had under Ole. One of those was the team sending a big feck you to Jose.

It's not tactical or systematic intensity it's just when we get a morale boost our players suddenly give it their all. Those type of impacts are short lived and it's why we see our players show greater effort in the big games as if we're midtable underdogs.

It might be comforting to think the only reason Ole doesn't have our players playing with intensity is fatigue but when you watch our own games compared to others it's clear which ones have a setup for it.
 

Deery

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This is not entirely true.

Because you mentioned Liverpool, lets compare them.

19/20 - minutes played.

Vam Djik4590Maguire4962
Robertson4242Lindelof4108
Salah4061AWB1047
Trent3991DDG3870
Firmino3921Martial3566
Mane3720Fred3545
Gini3644Rashford3473
Alisson3295James3005
Gomez3289Greenwood2592
Henderson3167Matic2560

Look at the difference, Liverpool have played alot more football at a higher level than Manutd players. They've had one bad game whereas United havent had 1 good game this season.

The problem is clearly how we prepare for games, it seems like we are so soft on the players. No player in this Manutd team carries any sort of responsibility for their own performance.
But those minutes were condensed into a short time period not completely over 19/20 it has never happened before because of COVID. There’s no real way of predicting how individuals will be affected because it’s never happened before.

Teams were playing 2-3 match’s a week then playing Europe and now jumping into a new season with cup competition, nations league, qualifying and premier league. It has to take its toll somewhere..
 

The Original

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It's just players sticking to the positions they're told to in my view. We have a very obvious tactic of when the opposition defence has possession Bruno goes up with Martial to do a half arsed press.

Then Pogba and Matic are usually so deep that it's easy to pass into midfield. If we win the ball back Bruno is so high he's unavailable for a good 10 seconds whilst we slowly progess up the pitch and then the opposition is set. Repeat.
No need watching any Utd games aby further. This is all you need to read to know the games go.
 

gerdm07

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So the super effort by most of the players after the Covid break for the last campaign was a mirage? Never happened? If it was the effort was real and ended with 3rd, did the players just change their attitude in 2 months? Something doesn't make sense.
 

youmeletsfly

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Or maybe we have a poor fitness department?

One thing I learned when I used to play football in my youth is that the summer camp needs to be quite intense for you to be ready to start the season. Maybe our fitness department went too easy on the boys.

That or again they can't be arsed which should point out to other and more pressing issues at the club.
 

Green_Red

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With all the talk about new signings for the squad the conversation about new backroom staff has flown completely under the radar. One of the things that Ferguson did well was not just freshen up the team but also the backroom staff. It feels like the club has stood still in that regard since Ole was appointed. It needs to be looked at, we need to change the approach to coaching to keep the ideas fresh.
 

Ludens the Red

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It's a tiring excuse.

I bet if Utd had a more busy pre-season and others not the excuse would be "they had more rest compared to us because of our busy pre-season".
:lol: 100% true this.
Man United players are the only players in the league who are both consistently too tired and consistently lacking in match fitness .
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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We've only shown any real intensity during the two patches of very good form we've had under Ole. One of those was the team sending a big feck you to Jose.

It's not tactical or systematic intensity it's just when we get a morale boost our players suddenly give it their all. Those type of impacts are short lived and it's why we see our players show greater effort in the big games as if we're midtable underdogs.

It might be comforting to think the only reason Ole doesn't have our players playing with intensity is fatigue but when you watch our own games compared to others it's clear which ones have a setup for it.
Two patches of very good form? You are just blindly making it up here. Just because we had games we didn’t win last season doesn’t mean we never show intensity in some of those games.

Even when we didn’t win the game last season, our players did show their intensity and hunger to fight. That was the massive difference between last season and previous ones.

I see different intensity like day and night between the game when we drew to Everton or lost to Liverpool last season with our last three league games this season.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Pressing is a tactic and one that Manchester United has not really implemented in a modern game where it is extremely important. It's not just running around and putting in a shift, but systematic pressure applied on the opposition and perfected through practice. We press sometimes, we don't press other times and when we do it, it's never very effectively carried out either.
 

Faetheshire86

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A lot of our squad players have played 3-4 matches in the last 7 months. They needed a full preseason to be ready for this season.

Some of our starting 11, Bruno for example, played a game less than 3 weeks after Sevilla, so possibly had 2 weeks break. That's not enough rest going in to a new season.

How much this affects our early season performances is up for debate. But I think those trying to put 100% of the blame on the players/coaches shoulders are being a little disingenuous.
 

romufc

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But those minutes were condensed into a short time period not completely over 19/20 it has never happened before because of COVID. There’s no real way of predicting how individuals will be affected because it’s never happened before.

Teams were playing 2-3 match’s a week then playing Europe and now jumping into a new season with cup competition, nations league, qualifying and premier league. It has to take its toll somewhere..
Okay, if you want to go by that narrative, here is one.

Liverpool games last season as follows:

23/11/19
27/11/19 - 4 days
30/11/19 - 3 days
4/12/19 - 4 days
7/12/19 - 3 days
10/12/19 - 3 days
14/12/19 - 4 days
17/12/19 - Will ignore this game
18/12/19 - 4 days
21/12/19 - 3 days
26/12/19 - 5 days
29/12/19 - 3 days
2/1/20 - 4 days
5/1/20 - 3 days

Manutd post Covid

19/6/20
24/6/20 - 5 days
27/6/20 - 3 days
30/6/20 - 3 days
4/7/20 - 4 days
9/7/20 - 5 days
13/7/20 - 4 days
16/7/20 - 3 days
19/7/20 - 3 days
22/7/20 - 3 days
26/7/20 - 4 days
5/8/20 - 10 days
10/8/20 - 5 days
16/8/20 - 6 days

We were taking of players at 60 minutes post lockdown and making 5 subs in a game for the first 3 games. This narrative that we played too many games is false.

But if you want to look at why we are tired, here is list of games Spurs have played this season

13/9/20
17/9/20 - 4 days
20/9/20 - 3 days
24/9/20 - 4 days
27/9/20 - 3 days
29/9/20 - 2 days
1/10/20 - 2 days
4/10/20 - 3 days

Yet Spurs looked 70% sharper than us and we have played half the games they have.
 

VojjE

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13/9/20
17/9/20 - 4 days
20/9/20 - 3 days
24/9/20 - 4 days
27/9/20 - 3 days
29/9/20 - 2 days
1/10/20 - 2 days
4/10/20 - 3 days

Yet Spurs looked 70% sharper than us and we have played half the games they have.
How long of a break did they have before that?
 

romufc

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How long of a break did they have before that?
I am not google. What a lazy response... go check why I am putting those dates first.

" I think it’s more to do with the accumulation of games rather that the lack of preseason "
 

Eli Zee

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Well, we have Bruno, rashford, martial, etc willing to press... but when u have Pogba and matic, the press is easily by passed right to midfield where Pogba and matic sit and don't press very well.
I'm sure that is demoralizing for the ones that are running for almost no reason.
 

Deery

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Okay, if you want to go by that narrative, here is one.

Liverpool games last season as follows:

23/11/19
27/11/19 - 4 days
30/11/19 - 3 days
4/12/19 - 4 days
7/12/19 - 3 days
10/12/19 - 3 days
14/12/19 - 4 days
17/12/19 - Will ignore this game
18/12/19 - 4 days
21/12/19 - 3 days
26/12/19 - 5 days
29/12/19 - 3 days
2/1/20 - 4 days
5/1/20 - 3 days

Manutd post Covid

19/6/20
24/6/20 - 5 days
27/6/20 - 3 days
30/6/20 - 3 days
4/7/20 - 4 days
9/7/20 - 5 days
13/7/20 - 4 days
16/7/20 - 3 days
19/7/20 - 3 days
22/7/20 - 3 days
26/7/20 - 4 days
5/8/20 - 10 days
10/8/20 - 5 days
16/8/20 - 6 days

We were taking of players at 60 minutes post lockdown and making 5 subs in a game for the first 3 games. This narrative that we played too many games is false.

But if you want to look at why we are tired, here is list of games Spurs have played this season

13/9/20
17/9/20 - 4 days
20/9/20 - 3 days
24/9/20 - 4 days
27/9/20 - 3 days
29/9/20 - 2 days
1/10/20 - 2 days
4/10/20 - 3 days

Yet Spurs looked 70% sharper than us and we have played half the games they have.
Am not really sure what am supposed to be looking at to be honest, but Spurs finished 6th last season and never had European football at the end of the restart.We however had a fight for 4th and Semifinal against Sevilla.

Spurs had more of a rest and also had new transfers in the team for the match against us.
 

romufc

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Am not really sure what am supposed to be looking at to be honest, but Spurs finished 6th last season and never had European football at the end of the restart.We however had a fight for 4th and Semifinal against Sevilla.

Spurs had more of a rest and also had new transfers in the team for the match against us.
Spurs had a rest, Liverpool had the same fixture list in December and they coasted the league... I thought you said its nothing to do with pre season but fixture pile up.

Make up your mind.
 

Dan_F

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We’re just not a pressing team. Ole is asking them to do a press when the ball goes for a goal kick, which basically involves the front three being late to every pass, because they’re only looking one pass ahead. The midfield then has a giant gap, unless Fred is playing, as he usually presses high (causes problems when he’s playing as the DM).
From open play we basically go back to the half way line and let teams bring the ball out easy enough.

The problems are the same as we face in an attacking sense, or trying to get the ball out from the goalkeeper. It requires clear instruction and practice. I‘ve never been convinced that these things have been going on at Carrington.
 

noodlehair

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It seems like our squad is perpetually either not fit (some excuse about the lack of pre-season) or as that excuses looks sillier it becomes an issue of "tiredness". Neither of the these two things seem to be as much of a chronic problem at other clubs.

What we're actually seeing isn't "unfit" players or "tired" players. It's just a lack of intensity. On and off the ball we don't play with a real purpose. We don't close the ball down as a team with a real purpose or intent behind it, neither do we pass or move the ball with any purpose. It's why we look cumbersome so people try and excuse this off as a "fitness" issue and then "tiredness".

You don't need 11 Ngolo Kantes to play with intensity. You just need to close space and press as a unit, and have a plan when you move the ball so players can play a lot quicker rather than decide their next move once the ball is at their feet.

Anyone else agree?
You don't need 11 Kantes but you do need players with good levels of discipline and focus, and who can react quickly to situations.

We play a midfield of Pogba and Matic, with Maguire sitting behind them, and then act confused when we can't seem to match the intensity of opposition teams.

It's like being confused about why a tractor can't win a race against a tuned up sports car.
 

VojjE

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I am not google. What a lazy response... go check why I am putting those dates first.

" I think it’s more to do with the accumulation of games rather that the lack of preseason "
Why? They are poor comparisons given that they are in different stages of the season. Playing a lot of games with little time in between is less detrimental earlier in the season than later on. Liverpool and Tottenham played their last competitive game on July 26th, United on the August 16th. Just about three weeks of difference, which is huge when it comes to resting and building players back up. You can subtract a week with us playing our first game September 19, but two weeks is still huge.
 

Deery

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Spurs had a rest, Liverpool had the same fixture list in December and they coasted the league... I thought you said its nothing to do with pre season but fixture pile up.

Make up your mind.
We never had preseason because we jumped from one season straight into another.
Liverpool won the league easy but even they are feeling the effects of it as are Man City.
I have made my mind up, if you’re playing competitively for a long period of time with no rest then you are going to get tired.
 

Offside

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I think as a team we have some real talent yet we are absolutely useless at the basics. Everything we do from accurate passing, corners right down to fitness and injury management is done poorly. We lack professionalism in my opinion.
 

romufc

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Why? They are poor comparisons given that they are in different stages of the season. Playing a lot of games with little time in between is less detrimental earlier in the season than later on. Liverpool and Tottenham played their last competitive game on July 26th, United on the August 16th. Just about three weeks of difference, which is huge when it comes to resting and building players back up. You can subtract a week with us playing our first game September 19, but two weeks is still huge.
We played 2 more games. The first game was our second team.
 

romufc

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We never had preseason because we jumped from one season straight into another.
Liverpool won the league easy but even they are feeling the effects of it as are Man City.
I have made my mind up, if you’re playing competitively for a long period of time with no rest then you are going to get tired.
How much rest do players get when they get to the CL final and go to the world cup then? 2/3 weeks max. So are you saying this United team will be tired until they have a 6 week rest? So this whole season should be excused as tired?
 

VojjE

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We played 2 more games. The first game was our second team.
Plenty of first team players featured in that second LASK game, no point in being disingenuous. Besides, games are the tip of the ice berg. Preparing for games and maintaining fitness takes it toll even if you don't play in the games.

How much rest do players get when they get to the CL final and go to the world cup then? 2/3 weeks max. So are you saying this United team will be tired until they have a 6 week rest? So this whole season should be excused as tired?
No, but we won't see optimal fitness for at least a few weeks. The CL final is played very close to the end of the league, and it's quite common to see players struggle after a WC or even not play so they can regain fitness.
 
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The Hilton

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Some amazing ignorance in this thread, totally disregarding our lack of preseason.

Quite simply, most other teams were able to train and prepare for this season, we weren't (along with the likes of City and Wolves), and that's why we're behind on fitness, both mental and physical.
 

Deery

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How much rest do players get when they get to the CL final and go to the world cup then? 2/3 weeks max. So are you saying this United team will be tired until they have a 6 week rest? So this whole season should be excused as tired?
We don’t know what it’s going to be excused as because we have never had the same circumstances before.

They played from the start of the 19/20 season had to stop because of COVID no playing, threw straight into a condensed fixture list then straight into a new season. How can you not see that’s going to have an effect on players?
 

romufc

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Plenty of first team players featured in that second LASK game, no point in being disingenuous. Besides, games are the tip of the ice berg. Preparing for games and maintaining fitness takes it toll even if you don't play in the games.
Great, I am so glad you brought this up. Spurs first pre season game was 22/8/20. 3 weeks after the season finished the season. So they were in training preparing for games before the 22/8.

Our players had 2 weeks off as well. Plus they had a break before the EL campaign restarted.

So really, its preparation, not rest.
 

Idxomer

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The team always looks way too labored on and off the ball, there's no natural flow to how the players act and react on the pitch. Relying that much on improvisation will lead to mental fatigue and players running out of ideas.

And that's not something new, I said to another poster to go look at the Bournemouth game and see how the team looked defensively and the ease they were cutting through the midfield. That was our 4th league game after the restart. At that time, results and position mattered more, but to see this continuing into the new season with the same personnel and tactics signal a systemic problem that doesn't have much to do with either fatigue or fitness.
 

romufc

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We don’t know what it’s going to be excused as because we have never had the same circumstances before.

They played from the start of the 19/20 season had to stop because of COVID no playing, threw straight into a condensed fixture list then straight into a new season. How can you not see that’s going to have an effect on players?
Look, I am not saying it will have 0 effect on players, I feel it is being overplayed. We have not looked competitive in any PL game this season so far.

Are you telling me we look so bad purely because of fixture pile up? Why is it that we are the only team that look this bad?
 

K Stand Knut

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Ha, good post but the last sentence smacks of conspiracy theory!!!! It’s the coaching I’m afraid. It’s simple that accompanied by players who don’t seem to want to play for ole.
it’s not a conspiracy theory. It’ll, worryingly, be down to the manager if it happens and that is a huge problem.

Whilst I’m firmly in the #OleIn camp, I agree there is clearly issues with him/his tactics/approach currently.

I would argue that the players want to play for him. It’s Just not working at the moment.

Ole could make some really ballsy decisions and I think it’d help. But he won’t
 

Redplane

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The team always looks way too labored on and off the ball, there's no natural flow to how the players act and react on the pitch. Relying that much on improvisation will lead to mental fatigue and players running out of ideas.

And that's not something new, I said to another poster to go look at the Bournemouth game and see how the team looked defensively and the ease they were cutting through the midfield. That was our 4th league game after the restart. At that time, results and position mattered more, but to see this continuing into the new season with the same personnel and tactics signal a systemic problem that doesn't have much to do with either fatigue or fitness.
To your point- Ive often wondered these past few years if we're being coached too tightly. We have some amazingly creative players with tons of natural instinct (Pogba, Mata, Bruno, Greenwood, VDB it seems, etc.) but for whatever reason it often comes across so labored. It seems many pro players these days have been so intensely trained on the fundamentals that you almost wonder if coaching to focus on those takes away from what makes them special.

Alternatively of course (and SAF at some pt hinted at that) that players are too cool for school and fail to do the basics that they should be doing which makes it so that they have to be coached too tightly. Im sure coaches will use one explanation, the players the other.

I think though one thing the Mou doc made clear is that the manager in some ways needs to ooze confidence in both himself and the players that are most likely to keep them in the job. In Mou s case I guess that's probably to a fault.
 

wolvored

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I wholeheartedly agree.

I hate the way United play, I've hated if for a long time, even in Fergie's last years when we still won titles. We're always on the back foot against good teams (actually most teams nowadays), always surrender the middle and drop deep. It's because we can't and don't really know how to impose ourselves. We don't go out to outplay good teams, we go out to "hit them on the counter, if we can", like some bottom half Stoke-like small timers.
It's so much easier just do drop deep and wait.

We used to be dominant. We used to just throw bodies upfront when things went wrong and just be relentless, hammering on the opposition til they surrender, so many late goals... But that's long gone.

I thought Ole would bring something different but he isn't, so far. And nothing suggests he will.
Good post. I agree 100% We seem to have odd games when we take the game to the opposition, but the majority we look like a low championship side playing a top Premier team. Look how slow we get the ball from defence to midfield and then we seem to pass it around as we have no runners going past players. we only seem to quicken it up after the other team has attacked and we can whack a 50 yard pass forward to the strikers or Bruno.
 

Arka_BleedingRed

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Things that have been recurrent in our play style under Ole and even Jose during the last few years:
1. Much more emphasis on recovery pressing individually rather than collective, organised pressing with blocking passing lanes.
2. No clear passing patterns and movement, mostly some long balls, hopeful crosses often underhit/overhit, some individual combination play that breaks down after 3-4 moves showing the lack of systemic coaching.
3. No tempo most of the times to exploit gaps in opponent's defence, and at times when we do have them, it mostly breaks down due to poor passing, lack of penetrative, quick passes.
4. Passing is inconsistent, and some of the players are horrible at it. Also, there are some players who makes runs from the deep, only to pass sideways/backwards, showing lack of clever movement. Very poor set pieces other than direct free kicks.
5. We still haven't figured out how to break low blocks, even after having so many technical players in the squad.
6. Poor positioning, sometimes huge gaps between players, sometimes 3-4 players occupying the same space.
We are mostly dependent on counter attacks through the runs and individual skills of Bruno/Rashford/ Martial/Greenwood. Some basic wingplay, some combination play and occasionally some clever movement from the forwards are there.

All in all, we are a side that reeks of poor coaching. Most of the teams facing us look much better organised than us. For me, McKenna and Carrick are as much to blame as Ole and Phelan. In my opinion, they all need to be replaced. But considering how inept the owners are, I have no faith that they will be able to find the right person for the job.