Jibbs
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- Apr 23, 2013
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Sub par manager and poor coaching is very evident. Even a blind could see that.
Not really, it's just that each team is a different situation.Players perform much better before they join us, and then much better after they leave us. That's become a consistent trend over the last 6 years or so.
The coaching is clearly sub par. Absent even.
Maybe a dream for some fans but i don't think its ever helpful, Mourinho did plenty of it it didn't achieve much other than probably lowering team morale and contributing to getting him the sack. Ferguson was always reluctant to criticize the club even though for a long time he was left disappointed almost every summer as the clubs wage structure and recruitment policies wouldn't allow him to get his preferred targets.The best that I've seen recently is Thomas Tuchel, he's better than even Klopp in that regard IMO.
Klopp had to learn when coming to England that pressing isn't everything, and I suspect most German managers who come here will go through that learning curve if they ever manage a big club where there's no space to attack. Tuchel however had that lesson from the off, his Dortmund team was extremely good at breaking down buses. He also works well with star players and hasn't hesitated to criticize upper management in the past, which would be a dream for a lot of Utd fans.
Now that i do agree with and i've felt the same for a long time. Its why Moyes was a terrible choice for United. If you look at most of the successful managers down the years a lot of them have been in charge of the top teams in smaller leagues before making the jump to big leagues. Ferguson at Aberdeen, Mourinho at Porto and even Guardiola with Barca B.I think the big thing to be wary about for us now is hiring managers who overachieve with smaller teams where the opposition give them more space and less respect. Such managers can be quite the gamble as there's no guarantee they'll learn on the job well enough or quickly enough, and they may end up falling short when faced with our unique challenges.
Ole only played this combo in the league twice against Everton and Tottenham and it didn't work well in either game.Pogba should be sold ...period. United was a much better balanced midfield with Fred, McT and Bruno. Ole is forced to shoehorn him into the team and he can be brilliant on his day(against lesser opposition). After 4 years time to conclude the experiment. He just isn't cut for a physical league where you need a high work-rate etc.
People don't realize his first choice was always city but Guardiola wasn't interested he said smaller players are usually better especially in the midfield.
True, I too think it's a weakness of his, albeit one that the fans would relish. The good thing is he seems to have toned it down in recent times.Maybe a dream for some fans but i don't think its ever helpful, Mourinho did plenty of it it didn't achieve much other than probably lowering team morale and contributing to getting him the sack. Ferguson was always reluctant to criticize the club even though for a long time he was left disappointed almost every summer as the clubs wage structure and recruitment policies wouldn't allow him to get his preferred targets.
Good observation. If we are able to target managers who have less of a steep learning curve when coming here then we'll have set them up well for success.Now that i do agree with and i've felt the same for a long time. Its why Moyes was a terrible choice for United. If you look at most of the successful managers down the years a lot of them have been in charge of the top teams in smaller leagues before making the jump to big leagues. Ferguson at Aberdeen, Mourinho at Porto and even Guardiola with Barca B.
Hope it can work in CL at least then. If we get going again.Ole has a playing well against big sides counter attacking.
Against defensive setups a huge failure. You excel in the premiere league dominating smaller teams - not counter attacking and hanging on against the big boys.
ThisPlayers aren’t being coached at all.
We rely on individual brilliance. Our side on paper is far better than it is - someone like Poch would make us a far better side.
Posts like this are stupid beyond anything. So if you don't have any expertise in a field you are not allowed to raise any critisism? I guess you haven't ever criticised the government, an actor, a doctor, a teacher, etc etc.The sad thing is, Ole could pop into the matchday thread on here at any time and cherry pick any of a thousand articulate posters who KNOWS exactly how United should be coached.
What's wrong with you?? Despite his ridiculous opinion, you shouldn't talk like that to a handsome devil.Posts like this are stupid beyond any anything. So if you don't have any expertise in a field you are not allowed to raise any critisism? I guess you haven't ever criticised the government, an actor, a doctor, a teacher, etc etc.
I said the post as stupid not the person mate, see there's a differenceWhat's wrong with you?? Despite his ridiculous opinion, you shouldn't talk like that to a handsome devil.
Just press making stuff up for clicks, it's almost like it's read off a 14 years old twotter. fans are on a string these daysThere's a quote in the Athletic that seems apt to place in here:
The standard of training sessions is said to be “high and engaging” but there are some who look at Solskjaer’s record with Molde and Cardiff City and wonder whether there is a ceiling. One source close to the players says: “I must be clear, the players I speak to are never saying he’s a disaster. But they question whether he is a top, top coach. They are worried about how things spiral after a bad result, the momentum swings too dramatically. There is a feeling the team is too dependent on players in attack doing wonderful individual things.”
Pogba was a club signing and not a Jose signing. Almost everyone from fans to media to Woodward were convinced what a huge crime SAF committed to let Pogba leave on a free and that Pogba would be the saviour of United.I think it's very clear the fact that we started pre-season a few weeks after most other teams is the main reason for our horror start. But the media has had a field-day by creating a myth that we are a club in free-fall and many fans have fallen for it.
We're still paying the price for the wreckless horror panic buying of the Mourinho and Van Gaal. Lindelof, Bailly, Pogba are 3 expensive signings that Jose left us with that will be impossible to shift for the money the board would want, and are still causing a lot of issues. Pogba can be world class but has only performed in about 20% of games he has played for us since he arrived.
There's no doubt that we will go on a winning run soon and everyone will love Ole again. Last season everyone of his signings was a hit. Hopefully same will be for this season and that we can go on a winning streak very soon.
I don’t think Pogba has ever, or will ever be World Class. He can however, be a very good player for us.I think it's very clear the fact that we started pre-season a few weeks after most other teams is the main reason for our horror start. But the media has had a field-day by creating a myth that we are a club in free-fall and many fans have fallen for it.
We're still paying the price for the wreckless horror panic buying of the Mourinho and Van Gaal. Lindelof, Bailly, Pogba are 3 expensive signings that Jose left us with that will be impossible to shift for the money the board would want, and are still causing a lot of issues. Pogba can be world class but has only performed in about 20% of games he has played for us since he arrived.
There's no doubt that we will go on a winning run soon and everyone will love Ole again. Last season everyone of his signings was a hit. Hopefully same will be for this season and that we can go on a winning streak very soon.
I don't think that's true. Even Jose said Fergie told him to sign Deli Alli when he arrived but he decided for Pogba instead. When Jose says he never wanted a player who has flopped in the first place, then usually the opposite is true. Sure he was begging the club to spend 200 million on Willian, Peresic and Jerome Boateng too.Pogba was a club signing and not a Jose signing. Almost everyone from fans to media to Woodward were convinced what a huge crime SAF committed to let Pogba leave on a free and that Pogba would be the saviour of United.
The coaching issue is probably that all our coaches have tremendous knowledge but are too fecking nice!
We need some good old SAF ire. " Play like that again and you're dropped!" kind of coaching
Players aren’t being coached at all.
We rely on individual brilliance. Our side on paper is far better than it is - someone like Poch would make us a far better side.
We were even more shit for large periods under LvG and Mourinho, so Solskjaer's coaching cannot be derided in isolation. I'm not going to even bother including Moyes in the argument. It's not just simply down to coaching though I'm not disputing it may be a factor albeit a relatively small one.Coaching issues! I can’t stress it enough, players don’t improve when they come here.
It is mostly coaching. Jose is no longer one of the game’s great tacticians and LvG hasn’t been for over a decade. Ole has very little tactical or coaching acumen beyond setting up for a counter attacking game and relying on individual quality in forward areas. It is most definitely the coaching.Yet our previous coach is one of the greatest ever and looks to be working his magic at Spurs now. LVG was a great coach too. It’s not just Ole, Ole in fact has got us playing our best football in a decade, though it comes and goes. So it can’t just be coaching. If Mourinho couldn’t fix it I doubt Poch could either.
Absolutely spot on. Pin that post to the top of this thread.It has nothing to do with being friendly and family oriented, it's also not a jinx. The caf is the only place I know where coaching is almost completely overlooked for frankly stupid things like "the manager needs to shout more/stand more/be meaner". In every single team sports, there is one reality, top coaches are few and the difference between a top team and a "normal" team is on the bench/sideline, NBA, NHL, NFL, Rugby or Handball, it's the same story. Having won in the past, been coached by a great manager or worked in the coaching staff of a great manager also means nothing just look at Belichik's former assistants.
United haven't appointed a single manager that was currently good, currently at his peak or on a rising trend. Moyes was an average manager, the best he can do is prevent your team from getting relegated but he will win nothing, LVG was at the very end of his career and out of club football, Mourinho was a former great manager on the decline and two good tiers below the very best. While Ole as a manager is a nobody, I'm not trying to be disrespectful but he isnt' better than Moyes, we all love him as a player but as a manager he has everything to prove and has never really demonstrated that he was good enough to coach PL players and make them reach new levels.
When all the confirmed top managers are taken, you have to take risks and look at the promising youngish managers and you need to get rid of them the minute you are convinced that they aren't the real deal, people will obviously not like that idea because United isn't a sacking club, but that's how the top clubs get their top managers by chopping and changing, none of them know in advance who is going to make it.
The manager is of course ultimately responsible for the tactical direction and implementation so if his team are not doing what he wants them to do or what is needed then he is gravely at fault for not doing something about it!Ole has said outright that he is barely involved in training when it comes to running drills on tactics and patterns. That's on Carrick, Mckenna and Phelan.
So the question for me is, do we think those 3 and their records are that of elite coaches? I have severe doubts.
So do I but I still feel Pogba will be a passenger. I'm itching to see VDB get a proper run in this team. I think he will compliment our attacking players a bit more. We don't need Hollywood passes, just quick incisive movement so the opposition can't get back in to shape.I don't think that's true. Even Jose said Fergie told him to sign Deli Alli when he arrived but he decided for Pogba instead. When Jose says he never wanted a player who has flopped in the first place, then usually the opposite is true. Sure he was begging the club to spend 200 million on Willian, Peresic and Jerome Boateng too.
Anyways Pogba is a brilliant player still. He could still have an amazing season for us. But he still has yet to prove to everyone that he can cut it consistently in the premier league. There's still huge question marks over his mental strength, defensive discipline and attitude.
Anyways I think we'll be back on track very soon with this squad.
Where to start with this post...The most mind-blowing thing about the caf is how the feck does keyboard typing coaches know we're lacking in the coaching department??
Nobody here knows, 100% can guarantee that.
The difference between a well oiled machine team and Manchester United is, they don't have very good players, they had to rely on tactical brilliance to win games. You see Brighton playing well, can they win the league? no.
We rely on form, and individual brilliance. Tactics are there but not as important of getting the players on form. When our players on form, doesn't matter what tactics they use, we will win games.
Do they win 30 games with said tactics? No. Good style of play can win you games but not consistently, you teach a team to play one way, you won't win everytime.
That is more important to me than seeing a well oiled team passing for no reason like LVG's philosophy.
exactlyYeah how do football fans know Liverpool are a well coached side? For all we know they are receiving such Moyes-Neville level training ground guidance and it's actually form, individual brilliance etc that is carrying them despite the crap coaching
The Athletic have great sources for a lot of the PL clubs, including United.Just press making stuff up for clicks, it's almost like it's read off a 14 years old twotter. fans are on a string these days
who are you taking about?Start with the people upstairs. Every footballing decision starts with them. Can't always blame the managers when the people hiring them and deciding on budgets, staff, ect, haven't a clue about football. And this isn't a post defending Ole or any past manager. I believe our football problems lie deeper than a manager. 7 years of this should tell us something.
Example, a club as huge as Manchester United should not be hiring players to be first team coaches when we are going through such turmoil when they have not proved there credentials elsewhere. Did this happen anywhere with Sir Alex? If I remember correctly, players would be handed a job in the youth system first, to get their teeth into coaching without much disadvantage to it.
Carrick mostly, McKenna to an extent also.who are you taking about?
fair enough about Carrick, forgot about him, but it’s not unusual and it’s only one player/ coach. McKenna has been a coach for a number of years before coming into the first team fold.Carrick mostly, McKenna to an extent also.
Hasn't his only experiences come through youth team coaching? Not saying his step up shouldn't have happened, but when you hire a manager like Ole, who despite my encouragement for him, lacks top level experience, then surround him with similarly inexperienced coaches, (which Ole could play apart of, but I'm sure both were hired whilst Jose was still here) then it shows the lack of footballing IQ from the decision makers when you expect this to be a success. Last year you could maybe understand with Phelan coming into the mix.fair enough about Carrick, forgot about him, but it’s not unusual and it’s only one player/ coach. McKenna has been a coach for a number of years before coming into the first team fold.
my point was only that McKenna didn’t come direct from being a player.Hasn't his only experiences come through youth team coaching? Not saying his step up shouldn't have happened, but when you hire a manager like Ole, who despite my encouragement for him, lacks top level experience, then surround him with similarly inexperienced coaches, (which Ole could play apart of, but I'm sure both were hired whilst Jose was still here) then it shows the lack of footballing IQ from the decision makers when you expect this to be a success. Last year you could maybe understand with Phelan coming into the mix.
Just for context, anyone know of our other coaches? We seem to have the most inexperienced coaching staff around.
Fair enough, that's why I said to an extent.my point was only that McKenna didn’t come direct from being a player.
There is a huge coaching issue in the club. Ole is not doing the coaching correctly, at all. We are among the bottom teams in distance covered, we have no organisation, you can argue Ole has made a mess of man management on top. He is failing in almost every perspective at the moment, even after getting thumped 6-1 he shrugged his shoulders as he gave answers. Saying "he's a student of SAF" means feck all, honestly. Being a very good striker doesn't mean you're a top manager, and in the 11 years of management the hasn't proven anything at top level on top. You can just tell he looks lost, but you can see it on the pitch for itself regardless.There is no coaching issue here at this club, after a series of first team managers after SAF with different ideas, yes that was a mistake doing that route, there clearly was no succession plan and that was poor whether they indulged SAF to select moyes (how can you refuse him after what he achieved) I don't know but we have clearly now completely changed tact with our direction and gone back to traditional values, we have spent a lot of money this window on talented youth, this is long term thinking though there is no patience amongst a lot of the fanbase, people need to be patient, it does take time, Ole is doing all the right things in terms of squad composition and recruitment, we have the youngest team in the league and rightly have added in a few more experienced players in Cavani and Telles to help it, the level of talent we have coming through on the cusp is nearly overwhelming, I have no doubt it will work out in the next few years and when it does there will be sustained success in terms of competing for the top honours, Ole is very intelligent and is doing the right things, he is relatively young as a coach, but he is a SAF student and is implementing that, I just hope he also realises, just like SAF did you cannot stand still and do the same things, you need to adapt for longevity. I hope that is part of what he learned from SAF and knows when the time is right to do so.
Howdy mate, I know your frustrations, trust me, but I will say it again, patience. There is a shit load of crap to be undone, most of which has been, and then a lot to be implemented which is a slower process, Ole is doing great work to fix it, but it could be the case Ole does all this great work and then another coach steps in an reaps the benefits, but as a United fan who loves what is going on at youth level just as much as the first team, there is a lot to be excited about.There is a huge coaching issue in the club. Ole is not doing the coaching correctly, at all. We are among the bottom teams in distance covered, we have no organisation, you can argue Ole has made a mess of man management on top. He is failing in almost every perspective at the moment, even after getting thumped 6-1 he shrugged his shoulders as he gave answers. Saying "he's a student of SAF" means feck all, honestly. Being a very good striker doesn't mean you're a top manager, and in the 11 years of management the hasn't proven anything at top level on top. You can just tell he looks lost, but you can see it on the pitch for itself regardless.
Anyway, Raphael Hogenstein is the latest I found to have openly pointing to the coaching being a problem. He said that you can buy a blue chip defender or defensive midfielder, and the team will get a lift but it's not going to solve the underlying issues with the squad, that they are just badly coached.
This is not about patience at all. It's not impatient to expect organisation and work ethic on a more consistent basis when he's been in the role since December 2018.Howdy mate, I know your frustrations, trust me, but I will say it again, patience. There is a shit load of crap to be undone, most of which has been, and then a lot to be implemented which is a slower process, Ole is doing great work to fix it, but it could be the case Ole does all this great work and then another coach steps in an reaps the benefits, but as a United fan who loves what is going on at youth level just as much as the first team, there is a lot to be excited about.
I get what you mean. Players always look at the coach to sort out the problems. Always. When a team loses the question is asked what happened and how do we stop this happening. It is very easy for us to say Maguire did this and Bailly did this but in reality the mistake starts a lot earlier. It is down to the coaches to look at what happened and to stop it happening. To say that we have been a shambles is right.This is not about patience at all. It's not impatient to expect organisation and work ethic on a more consistent basis when he's been in the role since December 2018.
Ole is not doing any sort of "great work". I'm in agreement that he means well, but there is nothing to point to him actually having competence in a job at a top club. In fact his CV points to incompetence, and his time here has been reflective of this too.