Fear of changing the manager

Preach.

Our fanbase has a very dysfunctional relationship with the club managers job. It's unhealthy and a bit creepy, and holds the club back from working more ruthlessly and efficiently like our rivals.

Managers are cheap and easily replaceable in football. Players are the most expensive part about football. A managers job primarily is to get the best out of the expensive players he's already got. Not to buy more of them.

Changing managers only becomes a problem when you replace an underachieving coach with someone who is also not what we need. Clubs that have changed their managers more times than us since Fergie left have won numerous titles across Europe's top leagues whereas we see finishing third as a sign of fantastic progress, it depends on the expectation of the board really.

The board know there will be further backlash for sacking Ole at this point because they didn’t ‘back him’ in the transfer window.

They’ll dither and wait until it’s impossible to keep him - by which point another season will be down the drain.

Skills said:

Preach.

Our fanbase has a very dysfunctional relationship with the club managers job. It's unhealthy and a bit creepy, and holds the club back from working more ruthlessly and efficiently like our rivals.

Managers are cheap and easily replaceable in football. Players are the most expensive part about football. A managers job primarily is to get the best out of the expensive players he's already got. Not to buy more of them.

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It's called support. It's what we are supposed to do as a fanbase.

Crazy I know.

Changing the manager is fine if there's any consistency in the appointments being made. If your board knows next to nothing about football and bounces from one playing style to another searching for a magic bullet then we already know it doesn't work.

RUCK4444 said:

It's called support. It's what we are supposed to do as a fanbase.

Crazy I know.

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You're supposed to support the club and watch out for the club's best interests. Manchester United the football club is far bigger than a single manager.

Get a fecking DoF in - or anybody with footballing experience making the calls.

We won’t improve with Ed and his cronies making the calls.

Right now I have no fear in changing the manager because it's obviously going to be Pochettino who I think is basically Ole 2.0.

Skills said:

You're supposed to support the club and watch out for the club's best interests. Manchester United the football club is far bigger than a single manager.

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Indeed. Most fans have no problem suggesting that underperforming players should be sold/let go/fired out of the cannon towards the furthest continent but somehow the same "no one is bigger than the club" approach doesn't extend to an underperforming manager.

Great thread @Andycoleno9 i would love to know where some of these myths comes from. Chelsea and Madrid sack managers like no ones buisness but it doesnt stop them winning trophies.

Siorac said:

Indeed. Most fans have no problem suggesting that underperforming players should be sold/let go/fired out of the cannon towards the furthest continent but somehow the same "no one is bigger than the club" approach doesn't extend to an underperforming manager.

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It probably would if he wasn't a club legend to be fair. Such a calamitous cock up by the club giving him a permanent contract based on a few good months of form despite his overall CV being so poor. They surely had to have known that if things went south it would be very difficult to replace him in contrast with a manager with no previous affiliation. When we sacked Jose and LvG the fans basically went "yeah.. that seems about right". Same can't be said for Ole with a lot of fans.

I'm not sure which is worse, Ole's three year contract or Moyes six year one.

Manager will be judged on results. If we continue in the same vain Ole will be replaced which is fair enough. Conceding 11 goals in the first 3 games and losing 6-1 at home is unacceptable

Andycoleno9 said:

My opinion is (while i agree that is great to have one Simeone, Fergie or Wenger) that football is not working like that anymore. Managers (just like players) are expandable today and we should not be afraid to sack and hire managers. That doesn't effect on stability of the club.

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In most of those clubs, the sporting direction is chalked down by DoF roles above the manager. The manager getting the sack doesn't change anything fundamentally sporting wise because the template and objectives are set in stone & the managerial position is constantly reviewed if it is living up to those demands. At Manchester United the manager is the sporting authority and everything related to football starts and ends with his discretion (except ofcourse transfers we know under the Woodward regime). Every sacking of manager in Manchester United is like redoing the way the club does football, whereas the other clubs you mentioned and most clubs in modern era have some sort of permanence to fall back on.

FootyGirl88 said:

Great thread @Andycoleno9 i would love to know where some of these myths comes from. Chelsea and Madrid sack managers like no ones buisness but it doesnt stop them winning trophies.

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And they've done it knowing the fans won't be happy about it either. Di Matteo, Ancelotti etc. - because fans usually forget within a few months once their next manager is doing better with the club. Think anyone at Leicester gives a toss about them sacking Raneiri now? Nope.

It would probably cause a huge kerfuffle initially, but eventually no-one would give a shite if we sacked Ole if within a few months we were doing way better under the new manager.

Fear of failure. But it's better to try out different things in attempt to be better.

Andycoleno9 said:

We had unique luck that we had Fergie. And because of that most of United fans lost sense for reality regarding managers. There are lots myths there.

Myth 1. New manager must build his team.
No, manager must work with players that he has and make them better with addition of few players. If he thinks that he can't then he simply can refuse a job. In other leagues most of clubs work in a way that manager can't even decide what players will be bought. Not saying that he don't have any input but he can't ask for specific player by name. He says that he needs striker, defender and left back and that is it.

Myth 2. Manager needs time.
Yes he does but not few seasons and which is more important; modern football doesn't work like that. For managers is the same rule as for players; swim or sink.

Myth 3. You can't sack manager every season or two because you will lose stability.
Yes, you can. All big clubs do that. And not just big clubs, every club do it. When things don't work, they change a manager. Look at Bayern, Juve, Chelsea, Inter, Barca, Real...they even sacked managers who just won them titles.

Myth 4. If you give manager time, team will be perfect after few seasons.
That simply is not true. It is like you give playing time to average player and expect from him to be world star. And in manager's world it is even worse because many other things, except his coaching qualities, must click.

My opinion is (while i agree that is great to have one Simeone, Fergie or Wenger) that football is not working like that anymore. Managers (just like players) are expandable today and we should not be afraid to sack and hire managers. That doesn't effect on stability of the club.

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The best post I have ever read on here.

So many of our fan base led by Gary Neville cling on to this Fergusson mantra, give managers time. Its delusional and lazy thinking actually.

No employer will give an underperforming employee time to produce.

Myth number 1 is the biggest myth of them all.

Massive Spanner said:

It probably would if he wasn't a club legend to be fair. Such a calamitous cock up by the club giving him a permanent contract based on a few good months of form despite his overall CV being so poor. They surely had to have known that if things went south it would be very difficult to replace him in contrast with a manager with no previous affiliation. When we sacked Jose and LvG the fans basically went "yeah.. that seems about right". Same can't be said for Ole with a lot of fans.

I'm not sure which is worse, Ole's three year contract or Moyes six year one.

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It was the same under Mourinho and co too. Getting to the point of sacking Mourinho was painful, and even then our fans lost their shit when it looked like the club would do the right thing. The fanbase itself prioritises the manager above anything else.

They'll happily shit over Fergie's legacy, just to make whoever the current manager is look good. And many of our fans did for Mourinho and Moyes.

But you're right about the additional sentimentality with Solskjaer. I said this after he was given the caretaker job:

Skills said:

I think our fanbase and decision makers at the club are far too sentimental to make an appointment like this work. It's just not the right club for it.

When things go south (as they do with 99% of managers at one time or another) clubs like Madrid and Barcelona move on sharply. There was a chunk of our fan base ready to let Moyes, Mourinho and LVG sink the boat. The club actually did let all three of them sink the boat. Imagine that now with the added sentimentality.

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Stretender said:

The best post I have ever read on here.

So many of our fan base led by Gary Neville cling on to this Fergusson mantra, give managers time. Its delusional and lazy thinking actually.

No employer will give an underperforming employee time to produce.

Myth number 1 is the biggest myth of them all.

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Hes one of the problems too, he always talks in cliches - "not the man utd way" "man utd are not a sacking club"

Andycoleno9 said:

We had unique luck that we had Fergie. And because of that most of United fans lost sense for reality regarding managers. There are lots myths there.

Myth 1. New manager must build his team.
No, manager must work with players that he has and make them better with addition of few players. If he thinks that he can't then he simply can refuse a job. In other leagues most of clubs work in a way that manager can't even decide what players will be bought. Not saying that he don't have any input but he can't ask for specific player by name. He says that he needs striker, defender and left back and that is it.

Myth 2. Manager needs time.
Yes he does but not few seasons and which is more important; modern football doesn't work like that. For managers is the same rule as for players; swim or sink.

Myth 3. You can't sack manager every season or two because you will lose stability.
Yes, you can. All big clubs do that. And not just big clubs, every club do it. When things don't work, they change a manager. Look at Bayern, Juve, Chelsea, Inter, Barca, Real...they even sacked managers who just won them titles.

Myth 4. If you give manager time, team will be perfect after few seasons.
That simply is not true. It is like you give playing time to average player and expect from him to be world star. And in manager's world it is even worse because many other things, except his coaching qualities, must click.

My opinion is (while i agree that is great to have one Simeone, Fergie or Wenger) that football is not working like that anymore. Managers (just like players) are expandable today and we should not be afraid to sack and hire managers. That doesn't effect on stability of the club.

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The fallacy is the belief that changing the manager enough times is what will ultimately lead to success. Klopp, Guardiola or whoever else you want to appoint will struggle to realise success with the way the club is currently run.

I don't believe Ole is the best man for the job, I would never have chosen to appoint him when we did, but I cannot get too excited about his sacking because it is not the biggest issue hamstringing our success for the next 20 years. Neither is the Glazers taking money out of the club.

FootyGirl88 said:

Great thread @Andycoleno9 i would love to know where some of these myths comes from. Chelsea and Madrid sack managers like no ones buisness but it doesnt stop them winning trophies.

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There's also the added bollocks about 'who would want to take this poisoned chalice of a job'. Ignoring the fact there's manager constantly lining up to get sacked by Madrid or Chelsea after 2 months.

There are two ends of the spectrum. One is the Watford/Valencia way where managers are sacked left, right and center. The other one is unfortunately us where disproportionate amount of time is given to managers who we know will never get us challenging for titles.

It is this approach which has led us to believe that finishing 3rd is a great achievement. The bar could easily be set that if a manager doesn't challenge for the title or does anything major in other competitions, they should be sacked.

But no, we wish to give time, reduce expectations, achieve those lowered expectations and be ecstatic and then fail to do even the bare minimum in the following season. Every single manager we've appointed post Fergie had been a dead man walking for a long period before they were put out of their misery.

Ideally, Moyes should've been out at Christmas. LVG after the first season and Mourinho after the Sevilla game. We accept failure lightly and hence we are where we are. Not being in title contention is a norm for us because as fans we have very high expectations out of Ed Woodward but only a fraction of it from the manager. Ed Woodward's incompetence doesn't mean that the manager should be absolved of unacceptable crap like the Spurs performance. FFS, even Chelsea have higher standards and expectations from their managers.

Their approach towards managers isn't considered haphazard or scattergun. It is what is needed to succeed today. The worst thing is that our managers today, unlike Fergie, don't even have to deliver first to have loyalty. Our loyalty towards them is implied and anyone who doesn't agree is a hater / not a real fan / keyboard warrior / should support Liverpool or City.

Its been 7 years and we haven't had a consistent period where we've spent dominating games with a clear identity of football. None of our players barring De Gea are ever in contention as the best players in the league. Our title challenges are over in the first couple of months. We have accepted mediocrity and as a fanbase we've played our part in this downfall by hoping that every new manager would/could/should become the next Fergie because all they need is time.

Massive Spanner said:

It probably would if he wasn't a club legend to be fair. Such a calamitous cock up by the club giving him a permanent contract based on a few good months of form despite his overall CV being so poor. They surely had to have known that if things went south it would be very difficult to replace him in contrast with a manager with no previous affiliation. When we sacked Jose and LvG the fans basically went "yeah.. that seems about right". Same can't be said for Ole with a lot of fans.

I'm not sure which is worse, Ole's three year contract or Moyes six year one.

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Well, if he wasn't a club legend they might have waited until the end of 2018/19 with the contract so the situation would be a bit different.

But every single manager had his defenders who defended him simply on the basis of him being the manager and we must stand behind the manager. There were posts on the Caf who said Moyes should have been given more time. Moyes! Ole's achievements as a player complicate things even more but even without that, to me it's clear that our fanbase has a strange obsession with the manager's position. Understandable, given the club's history, but not very wise these days.

Our fans may have fear of changing the managers but our management doesn't have such qualms and rightfully so, but they do seem to be set in their ways rather than dealing with every managerial situation differently based on circumstances hopefully this time they would be proactive to make the change rather than completely writing off the season if it comes to that.

If Ole is sacked, I think I will finally give up on giving managers many years to do a 'proper job'. They must win titles every year like Fergie did starting Day 1, or out.

I don't care if it's Poch, Nagelsmann, Rose or whoever, the name honestly makes no difference to me anymore.

After 7 years, I'm tired of waiting.

What is this success that Inter and Chelsea are currently reaping?
Comparing our own situation to that of Juve, Bayern and Real/Barcelona is hardly a fair comparison is it? They’ll win the league most years despite of how poorly they’re run and Juventus, Real and certainly Barca have gone through periods of horrible mismanagement.

Siorac said:

Well, if he wasn't a club legend they might have waited until the end of 2018/19 with the contract so the situation would be a bit different.

But every single manager had his defenders who defended him simply on the basis of him being the manager and we must stand behind the manager. There were posts on the Caf who said Moyes should have been given more time. Moyes! Ole's achievements as a player complicate things even more but even without that, to me it's clear that our fanbase has a strange obsession with the manager's position. Understandable, given the club's history, but not very wise these days.

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Can't speak for Moyes but it was definitely there with Jose and LvG too, no doubt. But not on this level, as I recall. It's unreal the amount of defenders Ole has and I believe it's a lot more than just due to not wanting to replace the manager, and who he actually is.

I've seen plenty on here who were all for sacking Mourinho being the total opposite with Ole. It makes no sense, I mean at least Jose was a fecking great manager at one point!

It's not 1990 anymore. Wrong managers go and you find new ones, doesn't matter how many, till you get the correct one and try to keep him as long as possible.

FootyGirl88 said:

Great thread @Andycoleno9 i would love to know where some of these myths comes from. Chelsea and Madrid sack managers like no ones buisness but it doesnt stop them winning trophies.

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Both of those teams buy players like they play FM with cheat codes. Seems to be related.

JohnnyLaw said:

What is this success that Inter and Chelsea are currently reaping?
Comparing our own situation to that of Juve, Bayern and Real/Barcelona is hardly a fair comparison is it? They’ll win the league most years despite of how poorly they’re run and Juventus, Real and certainly Barca have gone through periods of horrible mismanagement.

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Bayern have made some truly ill-fitting coaching appointments in Ancelotti and Kovac. The difference is that regardless of who is sitting on their bench the club always maintains a squad that fits the way they want to play the game. So when Kovac failed they could just sack him and come back as strong as ever, because they didn't let him buy equivalents of Maguire or Lukaku that his successor would have to work around.

Real as well have built their squad with a clear long-term vision, between Militao, Mendy, Odriozola, Valverde, Ödegaard, Vinicius, Rodrygo, Jovic, Kubo, Reinier, Ceballos, B. Diaz and (god knows who else) they have signed a metric feck ton of super talented youngsters and while not everyone of them will make it I'll take any bet that bottom line the next 5-10 years of their squad have been sorted. If one coach fails they just bring in the next, meanwhile their squad remains competitive and suitable to modern football regardless.

I agree.

Although I'd add that patience is justified but only when the manager has genuine potential. It's one thing being patience with the likes of Greenwood and Rashford and another extended the same to Keiron Richardson and David Hellion.

I do think both tactically and sometimes philosophically we are a club that is stuck in the past

I love Fergie to bits but he really did a number on us by first giving the job to Moyes and then delivering that ‘get behind yer manager’ line.

Our fan base has been in a perpetual search for the new Fergie since that day. Whenever a new manager is appointed, or even just talking about prospective managers, there are always the ‘will he be here for a long time’ question. Guess what, they will be here for as long as they are successful, or at least that’s how it should be.

In fairness to Ole, he wasn’t backed at all this summer. Shouldn’t be an excuse for a 6-1 hammering nor do I think he is the right man for the job. However, after finishing third which was a decent achievement considering our run before that, he should have been backed financially in the transfer window to at least give him a chance. We’ll be very lucky to get top 4 this season.

JohnnyLaw said:

What is this success that Inter and Chelsea are currently reaping?
Comparing our own situation to that of Juve, Bayern and Real/Barcelona is hardly a fair comparison is it? They’ll win the league most years despite of how poorly they’re run and Juventus, Real and certainly Barca have gone through periods of horrible mismanagement.

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Madrid spent time in Barcelona's shadow. Barcelona spent time before that being rubbish (could reach there soon enough) and Juve got relegated. Chelsea are consistent league winners despite constantly changing managers.

We also used to win the league or thereabouts for 2 decades. It's just that we've been messing about for the last 6-7 years.

Forget clubs of that stature, Leicester didn't stick to blind loyalty and appointed Ranieri which was a move that was heavily criticized. Went on to win the league. When he struggled again they moved on to someone else, eventually almost reaching the CL again.

Skills said:

Preach.

Our fanbase has a very dysfunctional relationship with the club managers job. It's unhealthy and a bit creepy, and holds the club back from working more ruthlessly and efficiently like our rivals.

Managers are cheap and easily replaceable in football. Players are the most expensive part about football. A managers job primarily is to get the best out of the expensive players he's already got. Not to buy more of them.

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Creepy is a bit of strange insult to use in this context!

Top quality thread. This needs to be said, and it needs to be repeated very often to our fanbase that believes every single manager can become Sir Alex given enough time.

Andycoleno9 said:

We had unique luck that we had Fergie. And because of that most of United fans lost sense for reality regarding managers. There are lots myths there.

Myth 1. New manager must build his team.
No, manager must work with players that he has and make them better with addition of few players. If he thinks that he can't then he simply can refuse a job. In other leagues most of clubs work in a way that manager can't even decide what players will be bought. Not saying that he don't have any input but he can't ask for specific player by name. He says that he needs striker, defender and left back and that is it.

Myth 2. Manager needs time.
Yes he does but not few seasons and which is more important; modern football doesn't work like that. For managers is the same rule as for players; swim or sink.

Myth 3. You can't sack manager every season or two because you will lose stability.
Yes, you can. All big clubs do that. And not just big clubs, every club do it. When things don't work, they change a manager. Look at Bayern, Juve, Chelsea, Inter, Barca, Real...they even sacked managers who just won them titles.

Myth 4. If you give manager time, team will be perfect after few seasons.
That simply is not true. It is like you give playing time to average player and expect from him to be world star. And in manager's world it is even worse because many other things, except his coaching qualities, must click.

My opinion is (while i agree that is great to have one Simeone, Fergie or Wenger) that football is not working like that anymore. Managers (just like players) are expandable today and we should not be afraid to sack and hire managers. That doesn't effect on stability of the club.

Click to expand...

jamesjimmybyrondean said:

Myth 5: No manager will succeed under this board

Myth 6: We need a manager that understands the club

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The approach of the other big clubs is probably the correct one and the results are evident, but the idea of sacking someone who doesn’t deserve to be sacked will always leave a bad taste for me, Ole doesn’t deserve to be sacked, yet anyway.

Harry Harries said:

Creepy is a bit of strange insult to use in this context!

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No it is a bit creepy. The way our fanbase religiously supports every single thing about all of our managers, while criticizing every single person around him, ranges from cult like worship to paternalistic, neither of which is particularly healthy or pleasant to look at.