The Daredevil Draft SF1 | Jim Beam vs. Gio

With all players at their peak, which team do you think would win this game?


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GodShaveTheQueen

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------------------------------------ JIM BEAM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ GIO-----------------------------------

Jim Beam's write up:


A TRIBUTE TO SPAIN EURO 2008 LEAD BY LUIS ARAGONES

Tactics:
4-4-2, 4-4-1-1; extremely fluid, direct, emphasis on both possession and quick transition in the defensive phase

Finally, I got where I wanted to team to go after round 1 as I couldn't find a proper sheep for a LB. Spain Euro 2008 team finally broke their curse in dominating fashion moving away from the tactics which were previously employed by Spain managers which was a basic "pass it wide and cross it into the box" way while managing to be very different from other versions of Spain team that came after it.
This is the most entertaining version of that generation and the reason why I opted for it. And while Spain at WC 2010 and Euro 2012 maintained their domination through an extreme version of the famous Tika - Taka football, this team was still extremely fluid (Aragones took main principles of Dutch Total Football), but much more direct and dangerous while being extremely tough to break at the back.

Possession stats for Spain in the big tournaments (Euro 2008, World Cup 2010, Euro 2012)

In Euro 2008, Spain averaged 50 percent in their three group games. In the 2010 World Cup, that number jumped to 59 percent. In the recently concluded Euro 2012, that number went up to 63 percent.
The difference in approach was evident even just with watching those 3 teams throughout the big tournaments, so not a wonder that stats fully back it up. The version of Spain that come later was also extremely dominant, but with Fabregas taking a false 9 role, the midfield of Xavi, Xabi Alonso, and Busquets along with Iniesta and Silva on the wings sucked both the joy and possession out of each game.
"A bad advertisement for football"; " "Terribly boring", " "Sterile domination" while ending their cycle with a famous 4-6-0 variation at times. I certainly don't agree with such assessments, but I put it there to clearly distinguish those team from the early child that started the domination in 2008.
At Euro 2008 they had 33 passes per shot; at the last World Cup it was 44; at Euro 2012 it has been 58.

What makes Spain 2008 so special?

- broke the curse of Spain national team as mentioned above
- it came before Pep domination, so the world could see the devastating effect of Xaviesta in full flow for the first time
- the team was so fluid that if you go searching around the net every page would come up with the different tactics to describe it.


The team that started the tournament in a more rigid 4-4-2 formation


And the team that ended the tournament to devastating effect

Main characteristics

- A designated, physical holding midfielder (Valery Voronin) which freed Xavi, Iniesta and Silva;
- Fullbacks (Bezsonov and Krol) need to push forward so that the relative lack of width on both sides was always solved with their attacking contribution. It also drew opposition from midfield at times opening more space for Xavi and Iniesta to control the midfield;
- Second striker provides both a link to the attack and goalscoring threat. The role will be played here by Tom Finney who will act in a similar way as left CF during his last peak for Preston North End in 1956/57 and 1957/58 season when he operated along Tommy Thompson upfront and the duo combined for 117 goals in those 2 seasons with Finney getting FWA Footballer of the year 1957 as a result.

Upgrades

That Spain team is upgraded in almost every area with Valery Voronin as holding midfielder, Tom Finney, and Samuel Eto'o upfront and GOAT level defense in Franco Baresi and Fabio Cannavaro.


Gio's write up:


The Argentinian front three is centred on the creativity of Diego Maradona, the focal point of a four man midfield which replicates his Scudetto winning Napoli set-up from the mid-80s. Spearheading the attack the energetic Mario Kempes is partnered by the no-nonsense markmanship of Gabriel Batistuta. All three electrified at the highest level - Maradona and Kempes dominating and winning World Cups, both recipients of the Golden Ball as the tournaments best player - while Batistuta plundered goals in the stingiest Serie A era of all despite never enjoying the level of service he'll relish here (as well as hitting 56 goals in 78 games for Argentina). Together it's a heavyweight attack that will harrass, probe and bully the opposition defence. As proper all-round centre-forwards with physicality in abundance Kempes (lightening off the mark whilst standing over 6 ft) and Batigol (the prototype 6 ft 2 power-house centre forward) should have the aerial presence to trouble the much smaller opposition back line whilst providing the technical quality and off-the-ball dynamism to maximise the creativity of Maradona.

At the back we are bolstered by the introduction of Lillian Thuram taking up a similar role in a diamond as he did in 1998 for France, where he had one of the strongest defensive tournaments on record completely shutting down the right flank defensively whilst provided constant width in attack - Thuram excelled in this role and was the highest rated player in the entire tournament by Kicker (Germany), L'Equipe (France) and Gazzetta dello Sport (Italy). The defensive synergy is increased by lining Thuram up next to his World Cup and Euros winning partner Laurent Blanc. Inside Blanc is the natural Desailly-esque partner of Oscar Ruggeri (Argentina’s second most important player in ’86 and one of the consensus best headers of that era) who maintains the same sort of sweeper / stopper partnership that will compliment both players. And on the left the one-man flank dominator Giacinto Facchetti completes a solid defence capable of withstanding the opposition attack.

TACTICAL CHANGE: MIDFIELD DIAMOND
How the hell do you match up to Xavi and Iniesta in midfield? No idea, but I imagine it's a question of the right personnel and the right tactics. In Paul Breitner and Johan Neeskens we have a custom-designed duo for pressing, containing and countering. Both won European Cups as left and right backs respectively and were instrumental in both central and wide areas which makes them ideal fits for a diamond. With Wolfgang Dremmler renewing his Europe and world beating partnership with Breitner, he will hold behind to enable Neeksens and Breitner to explode on the break. They can capitalise on their non-stop mobility, direct passing range and exceptional goal threat from midfield – tactically both would relish breaking through the midfield lines to plunder knockdowns or lay-offs from Batistuta / Kempes. Roaming ahead Maradona will be a nightmare to contain, particularly as part of a 4-man unit against a 3-man ensemble. As a midfield collective they could be the cryptonite of tiki-taka.

Who is this Dremmler chap?


Breitner's right-hand man and four-time Bundesliga winner for Bayern Munich. Together at Eintracht Braunschweig, Bayern Munich and for West Germany they forged a rock-solid central midfield platform where Dremmler's defensive discipline frequently shut down opposition no10s whilst providing the platform for the team offensively. In possession his use of the ball was typically productive and positive in shifting it forward early to the teammates who could do the most damage. Indeed, Dremmler is the midfielder with the fourth best ball retention statistics in the opposition half in World Cup history (higher than even Xavi or Iniesta which give an indication of his comfort in possession). Moreover the effectiveness of the Breitner / Dremmler partnership is demonstrated in the impact this had on the former’s goal record – with Dremmler holding the fort behind him Breitner transformed from a 1 goal in 7 games midfielder to a 1 in 2 machine.
 
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Šjor Bepo

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Interesting game, 08 remake is lovely though it does allow gio a lot of lenience cause with that team he would get murdered in a tiki taka system(though with Cannavaro beam locked himself out of it for good). Hope both sides will be up for a debate as its been a long time since we had such an interesting match-up.
 

Physiocrat

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@Jim Beam Great remake there and an excellent use of Finney. Do you have the knockout stage possession stats for Spain 08? It would be interesting to see if their style changed much from the group stages
 

Jim Beam

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Thanks @GodShaveTheQueen for setting it up, good luck @Gio and @Theon (I think he is also in there if am not mistaken), and thanks to @Invictus for both graphic design. :D

Will send a few thoughts a bit later, especially explaining how my team functions in more detail.

Interesting game, 08 remake is lovely though it does allow gio a lot of lenience cause with that team he would get murdered in a tiki taka system
Oh, disagree there, the team with Maradona would be extremely tough to beat if it plays more on the counter, and am going with a high line.
 

Jim Beam

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@Jim Beam Great remake there and an excellent use of Finney. Do you have the knockout stage possession stats for Spain 08? It would be interesting to see if their style changed much from the group stages
I think it definitely went a bit higher just from watching the games but will check it out.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Oh, disagree there, the team with Maradona would be extremely tough to beat if it plays more on the counter, and am going with a high line.
Agreed on Maradona's teams, not this team though. A lot of players would struggle with the pressure + dont rate this midfield/attack defensively against a tiki taka side at their best. But irrelevant as thats not the case here :)
 

Moby

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Not sure how well Finney would fit into that Spanish template. Eto'o of course is a perfect choice there and I know Finney was quite versatile and a flair player but in that kinda free role, I think he would be better in a team that allowed him a lot more freedom to be the main man say similar to the United team with Cantona.

That Spain attack was built on composure more than anything else and not rushing through plays, and I think it is impossible to replace Villa's presence, he was at par with Xavi as the MVP of that team, and just the perfect style of play needed to give that insanely creative midfield that finely tuned finishing touch. He managed to overshadow Torres who finished 3rd in Ballon D'or that year and just looked a level above the opposition with the ball around the goal.
 

Jim Beam

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Not sure how well Finney would fit into that Spanish template. Eto'o of course is a perfect choice there and I know Finney was quite versatile and a flair player but in that kinda free role, I think he would be better in a team that allowed him a lot more freedom to be the main man say similar to the United team with Cantona.

That Spain attack was built on composure more than anything else and not rushing through plays, and I think it is impossible to replace Villa's presence, he was at par with Xavi as the MVP of that team, and just the perfect style of play needed to give that insanely creative midfield that finely tuned finishing touch. He managed to overshadow Torres who finished 3rd in Ballon D'or that year and just looked a level above the opposition with the ball around the goal.
Absolutely agree, that is why he is here in a free role behind Torres or how they finished the tournament without Villa. That is also the reason why I mentioned the transition of the team throughout the tournament.

So, obviously fully disagree with the view that Villa was essential. He was, but more in later versions of this team as the sole striker. They were simply better without Villa after seeing the games and it was well documented that the team went up a level once he got injured. No matter how good Villa was, they were missing the person who would link the midfield and attack which Finney can do better imo while still being a huge goal threat on his own.
With Villa on the pitch, Spain found themselves with around 43% of possession in the semi-final, however after he left the pitch, Spain controlled the midfield and finished the half with possession being shared between the two teams.
It might seem ridiculous to state that the loss of Villa (who won the tournament’s Golden Boot award) helped Spain, but they were without question more effective with just one striker.
The best part is that team become so fluid they were described (from what I counted) to be shaped in 4 different formations.

Disclaimer:
- the team won't press high
- the team also doesn't play a high backline
- this will be quite a battle in the midfield as the tactic is to close the middle and force the opposition wide, but am definitely taking that chance with Maradona, Breitner, and Neeskens on the other side.
 

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I like the Spain 08 remake. Very interesting setup. I'm not so sure about Finney in that position, but that's probably because I haven't seen him playing through the middle. I like tactics and setup that are based on real setups so kudos.
 

Enigma_87

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Fantastic sides from both. I like what Jim has replicated and that Spain team was really something in terms of how fluidly that team was able to operate in different shapes.

Now I know what Gio also wanted to achieve in his RB priority pick in the RR, considering the well put diamond formation he has managed to pull here.. :D
 

harms

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I like the Spain 08 remake. Very interesting setup. I'm not so sure about Finney in that position, but that's probably because I haven't seen him playing through the middle. I like tactics and setup that are based on real setups so kudos.
He had won his second FWA Footballer of the Year playing centrally. Sadly, there's no footage of that whatsoever :(
 

Jim Beam

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So, will try to bring closer the way the team functioned. As I said, they were great with Villa but even better once he went out and I stand by that watching both semi-final and final.
The remakes are always tricky to make as you can nitpick a bit easier looking at the personnel, but I think there are zero doubts that defence is upgraded to GOAT level (that team conceded twice in the tournament and not a single time in the knockouts, here we have a wall with Baresi/Cannavaro) while Voronin is a wonderful addition to the midfield. Fullbacks fit the requirements, one of them being Krol. We already talked about the attack.

Tbf, at this point, am quite happy to just have a chance to present it as it is a fascinating team in many ways, so here it is.

The team was so fluid that you could find a different description looking at different pages.
4-1-3-2 was the base of the success for Spain
The semi-final against Russia was particularly telling – their awful first-half display with two up top was brought to a close by Villa’s injury. He was replaced by Fabregas, creating more of a 4-5-1, and Spain went onto win 3-0.
The graphic below shows the other system used by Aragones. The 4-1-4-1 which translated to a 4-3-3 in attacks also revolved around the movements of Senna.
It was strange seeing Spain play the majority of Euro 2008 what can be defined as a 4-4-2 system.... It was only when in the 34th minute of the semi-final against Russia when Cesc Fàbregas came on for the injured David Villa that they changed into a 4-2-3-1 formation that produced the best football of their tournament.
Quite amusing actually. By watching them I would say it would be 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 of sorts, but it is impossible to put it into strict formation. If you could apply one word to describe the way they played it would be "gimmick". It was all about changing position and popping up at various different places. Villa before and then Fabregas after would go on the wing allowing Iniesta or Silva to go inside. Fabregas would drop deeper or push forward in line with Torres. Silva would often go deeper into the double pivot along with Senna pushing Xavi further at number 10.

An example at 03:25...


Silva goes in the middle along with Senna while Xavi immediately uses the opportunity to go forward. He receives the ball passing it to Iniesta on the left. Suddenly Russia has ongoing Fabregas and Xavi through the middle while Torres is pulling the defence wide on the right. Capdevilla makes an obligatory overlap just enough for Iniesta to switch on the right and set up Xavi who is already in front of the goalkeeper. Once they were ahead it was over with 2nd and 3rd being scored on the counter. Both times Fabregas was the key and the reason why I think Finney would do great here (it is at 05:05 and 06:00 if you are interested) as he acted both as a link to midfield, was very direct joining Torres upfront or would go on the wing stretching the defence. Also, to mention, both fullbacks were extremely important to the system as they would constantly go forward allowing Iniesta and Silva to push inside.



Now, obviously the opponent is of much higher quality here, so will get few thoughts on this particular match. The midfield, as I mentioned, is pretty much "a no go zone". Iniesta and Silva don't just push inside while they were in the attacking phase, but also in the defensive one forcing opponent wide. Voronin looks a great fit for Maradona, especially considering the defensive tactic as a whole and Cannavaro, Baresi watching behind. Eto'o and Finney look ill-suited pair for Blanc and Ruggeri while there will be an awful lot of pressure on Dremmler. Overall, I obviously rate gio's team very highly but look at mine as more than the sum of its parts with these additions and think it would be very hard to contain and even harder to break.

That was a long one, but am back probably later in the evening, so wanted to cover as most as I can.

Oh yes...
@Jim Beam Great remake there and an excellent use of Finney. Do you have the knockout stage possession stats for Spain 08? It would be interesting to see if their style changed much from the group stages
Yep, they improved as the tournament went on. They ended around 54% averaging stunning 17 shots per game. That is Portugal at 55%. The graph is shit, so I don't know who was that with 16 shots per game.



Take in mind though that they averaged the most possession against Italy in QF, but it was also their worst game in the tournament. Against Russia it was 54% and against Germany in the final 50%. So, they were definitely at their best when they played at a higher tempo and were more direct.
 
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Demyanenko_square_jaw

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It was Hiddink's subs imo, not the Villa injury even if that did help tactically against russian setup that was the main factor in changing that semi-final against Russia imo. Before that it was a nervy game without much happening-very different from the end to end group stage game- Spain scored and Hiddink quickly took off Semshov and Saenko in midfield for the style over substance Bilyaletdinov and a washed up forward Sychev. Russian midfield possession setup, built around Semshov/Zyrianov/Semak which was one of the main strengths of that team quickly collapsed and Spain started to really take charge after that.
 

Jim Beam

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It was Hiddink's subs imo, not the Villa injury even if that did help tactically against russian setup that was the main factor in changing that semi-final against Russia imo. Before that it was a nervy game without much happening-very different from the end to end group stage game- Spain scored and Hiddink quickly took off Semshov and Saenko in midfield for the style over substance Bilyaletdinov and a washed up forward Sychev. Russian midfield possession setup, built around Semshov/Zyrianov/Semak which was one of the main strengths of that team quickly collapsed and Spain started to really take charge after that.
Yeah, it probably helped, although Spain was all over them from the moment of that injury and Russia midfield already fell apart imo. The momentum of the game clearly changed and they started to dominate. Subs probably sealed it in the end.

Great post @Jim Beam

If there's one game to watch of the Spain 2008 side which one should it be?
Germany in the final was a bit nervy, but still very dominant and efficient. If I had to choose, would go for one against Russia (this semi-final or the one in the group).

As for the whole tournament, Holland - Russia QF and Germany - Turkey SF were brilliant counters.
 

Gio

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All the belated best @Jim Beam.

Something not touched on in the OP, but worth highlighting here. With only 1 of the opposition XI reaching the heady heights of 6ft (Krol at just over 6 ft), we feel we have a massive aerial advantage to exploit at set-pieces and corners. In fact we have six players standing 6ft and above - Ruggeri, Blanc, Thuram, Facchetti, Kempes, Batistuta - all posing a threat, with a few in particular well known in a historical context for dominating opposition defenders aerially.

Gabriel Batistuta used every inch of his 6ft 2' frame to be a danger in the air, towering 5 inches over either of his opposite centre-halves here.


Oscar Ruggeri was coined el Cabezon 'big head' for his prowess in the air:


Laurent Blanc had a sixth sense in the opposition penalty box, anticipating and meeting crosses and knock-downs. Here is one season's worth of such goals at Napoli.



And worth remembering we have the best of them all at the other end of every set piece - Maradona could thread the ball through a needle and he’s more than capable of fizzing crosses in at that perfect height for our taller players to attack.
 

Jim Beam

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All the belated best @Jim Beam.

Something not touched on in the OP, but worth highlighting here. With only 1 of the opposition XI reaching the heady heights of 6ft (Krol at just over 6 ft), we feel we have a massive aerial advantage to exploit at set-pieces and corners. In fact we have six players standing 6ft and above - Ruggeri, Blanc, Thuram, Facchetti, Kempes, Batistuta - all posing a threat, with a few in particular well known in a historical context for dominating opposition defenders aerially.

Gabriel Batistuta used every inch of his 6ft 2' frame to be a danger in the air, towering 5 inches over either of his opposite centre-halves here.


Oscar Ruggeri was coined el Cabezon 'big head' for his prowess in the air:


Laurent Blanc had a sixth sense in the opposition penalty box, anticipating and meeting crosses and knock-downs. Here is one season's worth of such goals at Napoli.



And worth remembering we have the best of them all at the other end of every set piece - Maradona could thread the ball through a needle and he’s more than capable of fizzing crosses in at that perfect height for our taller players to attack.
Not a clear cut as you made it out. Sure, in football as a low scoring game it is an opportunity, but it is not measured only by players height. Anticipation, positioning, timing all play a role also and there aren't many better at this then Baresi/Cannavaro.

"Gabriel Batistuta used every inch of his 6ft2' frame to be danger in the air" and yet couldn't get a single headed goal against Cannavaro once the latter joined Parma. That is 8 seasons, 15 games or almost 1500 minutes of game time. If both of them are going for a header I know who am I backing. If Blanc had a sixth sense, not sure what Cannavaro had. And Batistuta in general didn't particularly enjoy the company of Cannavaro during their battles in Serie A.

Then you have Thuram who didn't score a single header for France in almost 150 games and couldn't hit the barn door in the attack with his head.

Blanc was good, but could be dealt with more physicality.

Either way, with Cannavaro, Baresi, Krol, Voronin defending zonally and Chilavert defending his 6-yard box it is not such a clear route as suggested. An advantage sure, but not THAT big.

Also, while we are at crossing, Thuram is a bad choice for a fullback in a diamond, especially as you'll be forced wide. In that sense and considering the way he played I think even Facchetti can be limited to certain extent.
 
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Gio

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For all the talk of remakes, ours is a reasonably accurate replica of the same system France won the 1998 World Cup. That was the tournament when Thuram was defensively imperious whilst providing constant width in attack in a 4-3-1-2 which is stylistically very similar to this one. Thuram was the highest rated player in the entire tournament by Kicker (Germany), L'Equipe (France) and Gazzetta dello Sport (Italy) - France Football (of Ballon d’Or fame) also rated his performance the highest in WC98 and whilst he was the official recipient of them Bronze Ball he would have probably pipped Ronaldo to top honours if voting had been collated after the final. Overall his credentials in this set up are rock solid I'd say - and worth reflecting that in that WC98 team he had Karembeu ahead of him, whereas here he has Neeskens. Look at the final where they nullified the Roberto Carlos/Rivaldo left flank, and still managed to provide a regular outlet up the touchline.



Here's Thuram returning back from a jaunt up the touchline:




This time threading it into the box for Guivarch.


Same again, but for Karembeu


Those snapshots are just from the opening 15 minutes or so of the final.

FBH said:
Just like at Euro 96, Jacquet was heading into the World Cup with his preferred 4-3-2-1 set-up. This was to accommodate the attacking talents of the majestic Zinedine Zidane and make up for his lack of defensive obligations as the midfield three of Didier Deschamps, Emmanuel Petit and Christian Karembeu provided the solidity and tightened their defensive grip. The width largely came from the full-backs, Lillian Thuram on the right and Bixente Lizarazu on the left while in the middle, it was Marcel Desailly and Laurent Blanc protecting the goalkeeper, Fabian Barthez.
Zonal Marking said:
Secondly, the system was a lot more 4-3-1-2 than it was 4-3-2-1. Djorkaeff plays almost in a conventional striker role when France have the ball – he drops deeper to occupy either Dunga or Cesar Sampaio when Brazil are on the attack, but he plays much closer to Guivarc’h than he does to Zidane.

Thirdly, the French defenders have an unbelievable license to attack. With Deschamps sitting in front of the defence, Petit covering the left-hand side and Karembeu the right, the back four regularly motor forward to join the attack. Lizarazu, of course, made a career out of this throughout his career, and Thuram motored forward in the semi-final to score the only goals of his international career.


'Admittedly Thuram may not have the expansive attacking game of some full-backs, but he produced the goods in the same system and at the absolute highest level. As for Facchetti's width credentials, even in a pool as stacked as this one, he remains the gold standard attacking left back. He redefined the role of a full-back and nobody before or since has married his defensive solidity with such a dominant box-to-box game.

Bold move from @Gio to play Neeskens.
:lol:
 
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Jim Beam

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I'll take that, let's see:

- it was 4-3-2-1 and 4-2-3-1 if Henry was on the pitch in a more attacking set-up. Djorkaeff did join the attack, but was still playing much deeper than what you described about your front 2;

- Guivarc’h had a role of a street lamp at times and his main duty was trying to bring others into the game. Who has that role here and who is Djorkaeef?

- you have downgrades in both CB and DM department. That CB one is especially glaring as we know France won that tournament on the base of their defence and it was very much down to brilliant tournament from Desailly. He often went forward too, so Ruggeri is a bad fit;

- to relieve Zidane of any attacking duties, they went even more defensive with Karembeu and Petit along Deschamps who were there first and foremost to bring even more defensive solidity. In the attack they kept it mostly simple. That is a huge waste of both Neeskens and Breitner;

What I find most confusing here is why you even went that road when you could have just used this as an example of Thuram providing width and perfectly get away with it without saying that it is "reasonably accurate replica of the same system".
I mean, it's not that you need to have a replica (or call upon one) if I used one.

As I said, by all means you go through your fullbacks in this match and am willing to take that risk as it means less Maradona on the ball and less Maradona in the game. Less Maradona is always better.

Thuram was a brilliant player, but I still stand by what I said that crossing comes down in the line of his qualities (that 2nd one was not even a particularly good cross for example). Well, at least when you compare him to some more attacking fullbacks. He also often acted exactly in a way those snapshots from Brazil match showed, pushed forward into the opposition half, did provide width, but not all the way to the byline laying the ball off or trying for a cross from further down the pitch.
Exceptional defender, as was Facchetti, but Ruggeri and Blanc will be the ones who will get targeted here mostly by the attacking line.
 

Gio

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Not a clear cut as you made it out. Sure, in football as a low scoring game it is an opportunity, but it is not measured only by players height. Anticipation, positioning, timing all play a role also and there aren't many better at this then Baresi/Cannavaro.

"Gabriel Batistuta used every inch of his 6ft2' frame to be danger in the air" and yet couldn't get a single headed goal against Cannavaro once the latter joined Parma. That is 8 seasons, 15 games or almost 1500 minutes of game time. If both of them are going for a header I know who am I backing. If Blanc had a sixth sense, not sure what Cannavaro had. And Batistuta in general didn't particularly enjoy the company of Cannavaro during their battles in Serie A.

Then you have Thuram who didn't score a single header for France in almost 150 games and couldn't hit the barn door in the attack with his head.

Blanc was good, but could be dealt with more physicality.

Either way, with Cannavaro, Baresi, Krol, Voronin defending zonally and Chilavert defending his 6-yard box it is not such a clear route as suggested. An advantage sure, but not THAT big.

Also, while we are at crossing, Thuram is a bad choice for a fullback in a diamond, especially as you'll be forced wide. In that sense and considering the way he played I think even Facchetti can be limited to certain extent.
Agree with you that Cannavaro in particular was great in the air, so we don't want to labour the point too firmly as it doesn't tie with how either of us see the game - of course anticipation, positioning and technique are just as important (if not more so) than pure height when it comes to aerial ability. At the same time though Batistuta had all those things in abundance and is notorious as one of the game's elite aerial finishers (look at the compilation posted above). He's more than capable of causing Cannavaro trouble in the air.. and the comparison to Parma or any other team isn't particularly relevant as that defending would have been done as a team (for example Thuram as a centre back partner at Parma offers better aerial protection than Baresi).

Even then here are a handful of examples of Batistuta scoring from crosses whilst directly man-marked by Cannavaro.

Why head when you can volley? :smirk:


1.25 and 2.40

And once more for good measure.


2.50

But the main point here is that the three players you mention above is just half of our six footer's - there's still Kempes, Facchetti and Ruggeri to deal with it as well which is precisely the point we're making here. It's a multi-faceted aerial attack which physically should pose you problems given the size of your back line and team as a whole - particularly with the accuracy of Maradona's passing.
 

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Now, obviously the opponent is of much higher quality here, so will get few thoughts on this particular match. The midfield, as I mentioned, is pretty much "a no go zone". Iniesta and Silva don't just push inside while they were in the attacking phase, but also in the defensive one forcing opponent wide. Voronin looks a great fit for Maradona, especially considering the defensive tactic as a whole and Cannavaro, Baresi watching behind. Eto'o and Finney look ill-suited pair for Blanc and Ruggeri while there will be an awful lot of pressure on Dremmler. Overall, I obviously rate gio's team very highly but look at mine as more than the sum of its parts with these additions and think it would be very hard to contain and even harder to break.
Fundamentally though playing a defensive tactic with that Spanish trio in midfield is completely alien to how they played and the systems in which they played their best football. Xavi and Iniesta excelled most in systems that sought to dominate the ball and enabled a central overload. Indeed both players went from good players within their own generation to GOATs in systems that maximised their ball-restraining qualities. A flat 4-man midfield is something out of the Anglo/Scandinavian school and is not conducive to playing to their strengths.

I think you’ve underestimated the importance of the Villa/Fabregas role in enabling the Aragones system to work. They were both terrific and fitted the philosophy because, while they added directness, their ball retention was first rate. As much as I personally rate Finney I have no evidence to suggest he’d fulfill such a key role as well as these guys. The school of 1940s and 1950s English football is a long way stylistically from Spain in recent years. And I’d be a little concerned that Finney’s one-man band role for a poor Preston side builds the collective game that was at the heart of each of the great sides these Spaniards played in. That central second striker role was absolutely key to making the whole system work and it needs the right fit to bounce off the other Spaniards for it to be more than the sum of its parts.

Aragones didn’t set them up defensively or with a cautious defensive line. Those sound like compromises to make this team more palatable off the ball. But the problem is you have to embrace the high line and the attacking mindset to make the best use of brilliant possession players like Xavi and Iniesta. It’s all or nothing with these guys and when it comes off it’s almost unstoppable.

And if you don’t embrace those principles it makes the park too big for the little guys who thrive in tight spaces. It makes them hugely vulnerable to the counter and getting run over the top of by box-to-box players who relish such transitions. When you’re up against the likes of Neeskens and Breitner it’s the last situation you want to get into. Never mind Maradona who could murder such a midfield off the ball.
 

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I'll take that, let's see:

- it was 4-3-2-1 and 4-2-3-1 if Henry was on the pitch in a more attacking set-up. Djorkaeff did join the attack, but was still playing much deeper than what you described about your front 2;

- Guivarc’h had a role of a street lamp at times and his main duty was trying to bring others into the game. Who has that role here and who is Djorkaeef?

- you have downgrades in both CB and DM department. That CB one is especially glaring as we know France won that tournament on the base of their defence and it was very much down to brilliant tournament from Desailly. He often went forward too, so Ruggeri is a bad fit;

- to relieve Zidane of any attacking duties, they went even more defensive with Karembeu and Petit along Deschamps who were there first and foremost to bring even more defensive solidity. In the attack they kept it mostly simple. That is a huge waste of both Neeskens and Breitner;

What I find most confusing here is why you even went that road when you could have just used this as an example of Thuram providing width and perfectly get away with it without saying that it is "reasonably accurate replica of the same system".
I mean, it's not that you need to have a replica (or call upon one) if I used one.

As I said, by all means you go through your fullbacks in this match and am willing to take that risk as it means less Maradona on the ball and less Maradona in the game. Less Maradona is always better.

Thuram was a brilliant player, but I still stand by what I said that crossing comes down in the line of his qualities (that 2nd one was not even a particularly good cross for example). Well, at least when you compare him to some more attacking fullbacks. He also often acted exactly in a way those snapshots from Brazil match showed, pushed forward into the opposition half, did provide width, but not all the way to the byline laying the ball off or trying for a cross from further down the pitch.
Exceptional defender, as was Facchetti, but Ruggeri and Blanc will be the ones who will get targeted here mostly by the attacking line.
Nah, it might have seemed a 4-3-2-1 on paper but in reality it was more of a conventional second striker / striker front two set up - “The system was a lot more 4-3-1-2 than it was 4-3-2-1. Djorkaeff plays almost in a conventional striker role when France have the ball – he drops deeper to occupy either Dunga or Cesar Sampaio when Brazil are on the attack, but he plays much closer to Guivarc’h than he does to Zidane.” (Zonal Marking).

On the rest of it not sure where to start really, it was a general observation that that’s some similarities here to the historical side that maximised the impact of Thuram and Blanc at the highest level. It doesn’t need to be and we never intended it to be a perfect replica of any side - it’s just an observation. As a few people have mentioned the replica you’ve gone for is flawed with Villa being a critical component of that Spanish attack.

For clarity the instructions for Neeskens and Breitner are given in the OP - they’re both playing their peak box to box role with the support of Dremmler behind them (replicating the freedom he gave to Breitner throughout his entire career.. leading to a 1 in 2 goal rate). We see both using their non-stop mobility to overload the 4-4-2 set up you’ve done for and tactically both would relish plunder knockdowns or lay-offs from Batistuta / Kempes (both of whom are far more physical than your smaller centre backs).

Again not sure where you’re coming from with the ‘play through the fullbacks’ comment (didn’t France play through Zidane.. :confused:) but as spelled out in the OP the game will he running through Maradona.

The Thuram information was just to respond to your comment that he didn’t suit this role - when in reality he was the best player in the entire tournament playing exactly this way.
 

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But the main point here is that the three players you mention above is just half of our six footer's - there's still Kempes, Facchetti and Ruggeri to deal with it as well which is precisely the point we're making here. It's a multi-faceted aerial attack which physically should pose you problems given the size of your back line and team as a whole - particularly with the accuracy of Maradona's passing.
Yeah and I acknowledged that issue in the post. You do have some exceptional heading ability there, but at the same time I provided the reasons why it wouldn't be so straightforward. Of course, you can break through from it and score, it is quite a line-up. Still, through zonal marking and aggressive approach from Chilavert it can be defended very well.

However, you get some, lose some. What this team got with Cannavaro is underestimated imo. Aside from the attack and midfield, now even defence is full of agility, quick reactions and generally fits the immense intensity throughout the team. If I may struggle a bit on set pieces, your CB's and rest of the team will struggle against one big Duracell rabbit of a team in all phases of the game.

Even then here are a handful of examples of Batistuta scoring from crosses whilst directly man-marked by Cannavaro.

Why head when you can volley? :smirk:


1.25 and 2.40

And once more for good measure.


2.50
Oh, I watched all of those as I searched did he ever scored a headed goal against Cannavaro. Your point about being a team defence is right, but I think he will be just fine with Baresi of all people. Here is something I will throw for a good measure too. Batistuta record against Cannavaro in Parma until he finally got some joy in those 2 games. :smirk:



10 games, almost 5 seasons during his very peak he managed to score only once against him including 7 games drought. He is now joined with Baresi with a packed midfield to prevent Maradona. I can't see it breaking trough easily, if at all.

Fundamentally though playing a defensive tactic with that Spanish trio in midfield is completely alien to how they played and the systems in which they played their best football. Xavi and Iniesta excelled most in systems that sought to dominate the ball and enabled a central overload. Indeed both players went from good players within their own generation to GOATs in systems that maximised their ball-restraining qualities. A flat 4-man midfield is something out of the Anglo/Scandinavian school and is not conducive to playing to their strengths.

I think you’ve underestimated the importance of the Villa/Fabregas role in enabling the Aragones system to work. They were both terrific and fitted the philosophy because, while they added directness, their ball retention was first rate. As much as I personally rate Finney I have no evidence to suggest he’d fulfill such a key role as well as these guys. The school of 1940s and 1950s English football is a long way stylistically from Spain in recent years. And I’d be a little concerned that Finney’s one-man band role for a poor Preston side builds the collective game that was at the heart of each of the great sides these Spaniards played in. That central second striker role was absolutely key to making the whole system work and it needs the right fit to bounce off the other Spaniards for it to be more than the sum of its parts.

Aragones didn’t set them up defensively or with a cautious defensive line. Those sound like compromises to make this team more palatable off the ball. But the problem is you have to embrace the high line and the attacking mindset to make the best use of brilliant possession players like Xavi and Iniesta. It’s all or nothing with these guys and when it comes off it’s almost unstoppable.

And if you don’t embrace those principles it makes the park too big for the little guys who thrive in tight spaces. It makes them hugely vulnerable to the counter and getting run over the top of by box-to-box players who relish such transitions. When you’re up against the likes of Neeskens and Breitner it’s the last situation you want to get into. Never mind Maradona who could murder such a midfield off the ball.
Am confused and not sure how you can say it is alien when they worked perfectly in it. It is still preventing central overload with Silva and Iniesta tucking in, it still allows them to dominate the central areas in the same manner going forward as the key peaces are all there. Villa was obviously not so important when they produced even more dominating football without him. The whole point of the tactic was to get them slightly out of that heavy possession system which become a boring template here and put them in a slightly more direct one, but still proven at the highest level. Aragones didn't set up defensively at all, but he mostly waited the opponent in his own half and once they come in the team was all over the opponent going aggressively in central areas and forcing them wide.

So, there is only Tom Finney left. Finney by all what is out there was exceptional player who could:
- work on the left, right or centrally and it didn't bothered his performances one bit (sounds pretty suitable for the team doesn't it?)
- was exceptional on the ball with both immense assisting and goal scoring rate
- most importantly and why he is in the team from the start Finney was a team player first and foremost

Yet it was not statistics that made Tom Finney great. It was his skill and style. It was also the substance he brought with it. Finney was no show pony, there was a point to everything he did on a football field. Unlike others of similar ability, and many of less, he never kept possession if a colleague was better placed. Finney realised his job was to get the ball in the oppositions' goal, either by assisting a teammate or by putting it there himself.
Sounds like a brilliant fit to me. Actually, he sounds like a brilliant upgrade to the system.
 

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On the rest of it not sure where to start really, it was a general observation that that’s some similarities here to the historical side that maximised the impact of Thuram and Blanc at the highest level. It doesn’t need to be and we never intended it to be a perfect replica of any side - it’s just an observation. As a few people have mentioned the replica you’ve gone for is flawed with Villa being a critical component of that Spanish attack.
It wasn't me bringing it up and certainly wasn't me saying this.

For all the talk of remakes, ours is a reasonably accurate replica of the same system France won the 1998 World Cup. That was the tournament when Thuram was defensively imperious whilst providing constant width in attack in a 4-3-1-2 which is stylistically very similar to this one.
Aside from Thuram role team dynamics couldn't be more different as already explained.
 

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10 games, almost 5 seasons during his very peak he managed to score only once against him including 7 games drought.
Come on, that's rather disingenuous. In the 2 games prior to those fixtures he scored 3 goals and in the 5 or so after he scored 6 goals. Even accounting for that dry spell above, where he typically had to play as a lone striker versus a stacked Parma defensive unit of Thuram, Cannavaro and Buffon, his overall record against Cannavaro is 8 goals in 14.6 games. Pretty respectable in the midst of 1990s Serie A. It's no surprise he rattled in the goals once the quality of the service increased at Roma, and who can forget this title coronation goal in the final fixture of 2000/01?


(
 

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Come on, that's rather disingenuous. In the 2 games prior to those fixtures he scored 3 goals and in the 5 or so after he scored 6 goals. Even accounting for that dry spell above, where he typically had to play as a lone striker versus a stacked Parma defensive unit of Thuram, Cannavaro and Buffon, his overall record against Cannavaro is 8 goals in 14.6 games. Pretty respectable in the midst of 1990s Serie A. It's no surprise he rattled in the goals once the quality of the service increased at Roma, and who can forget this title coronation goal in the final fixture of 2000/01?
So, once Cannavaro wasn't surrounded with dross in Napoli and had a proper defence he was able to fully stop him. Other defenders still couldn't... Am not talking about or putting few games there, it was 10 games, 7 games draught extended throughout almost 5 seasons during Batistuta peak. It doesn't sound disingenuous at all to me.
 

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Eto'o and Finney look ill-suited pair for Blanc and Ruggeri
I'd say it's a myth that Laurent Blanc was vulnerable to pace.

This is him bossing it against Brazil's Ronaldo and Romario attack in Le Tournoi in 1997:


It's hard to imagine a more explosive centre-forward duo. In fact his record against the acceleration king Romario is sensational really, having played 4 games against the little Brazilian and never conceded against him.
 

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Yeah and I acknowledged that issue in the post. You do have some exceptional heading ability there, but at the same time I provided the reasons why it wouldn't be so straightforward. Of course, you can break through from it and score, it is quite a line-up. Still, through zonal marking and aggressive approach from Chilavert it can be defended very well.
Fair enough. Ultimately it is a team of midgets without the protection afforded by a handful of bigger players that was the case for Spain 2008, who had 3-4 in that category to do the heavy lifting at set-pieces, or even later versions of Spain who had Pique and Ramos offering valuable height. Not an issue if the opposition cannot exploit it, but we are particularly well endowed in that category. Or as Forty put it better here the last time a team of midgets were put together:

I'm glad height is a talking point, and I find/found it bizarre that it wasn't as teams are constructed in accordance with it in real life with shorter backlines being a rarity and noticeably tiny ones simply not being a thing, like ever in real life (as far as I'm aware), so a suspension of disbelief regarding it in drafts makes no sense, to me, at least.

Leap and repute can be used to a certain degree, but it has limits, imo.
 

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Final throw of the dice, with minutes on the clock and since I've not really mentioned him. Maradona against the Milan of Baresi, Rijkaard and Maldini...

 

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Well played @Jim Beam. Good ding dong.
Cheers Gio. I already saw Kempes 89th minute header the way it was going.

@Jim Beam Where's the Finney quote from?
Will try to find an article and post it. There are more of them who portrayed him in that light from searching. One of them even claiming he would be great as a false 9 in modern game.

Now, of course those older players stories need to be taken with a pinch of salt, but his versatility was well known and proven.
 

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Will try to find an article and post it. There are more of them who portrayed him in that light from searching. One of them even claiming he would be great as a false 9 in modern game.

Now, of course those older players stories need to be taken with a pinch of salt, but his versatility was well known and proven.
Good stuff. If you're looking I would be particular interested in any comments on his off the ball work especially in defence. I have always had the impression he worked hard off the ball but never found it commented on
 

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Beautiful team JB, not too sure about Finney in this role but if you can get a player more suited to the role you will be golden.
 

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Final throw of the dice, with minutes on the clock and since I've not really mentioned him. Maradona against the Milan of Baresi, Rijkaard and Maldini...

:drool: He's incredible.