Agreed.
What’s your first choice midfield then?
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
Why people are saying "Pogba" is beyond me.
Bruno, DVDB and one of Fred or McT.
Bruno, DVDB and one of Fred or McT.
Really does sum things up here that still people trying to shoehorn pogba in, or change everything to get him in. Some suggesting new formations, putting players out of their best positions (Bruno out wide for example).
Some people won't face reality.
Some people won't face reality.
Matic has to be in it because he’s the only one that can play the DM role properly
Bruno has to be in it because he’s our best player
That leaves one from Fred, Pogba, McTominay and VDB for the third slot
Bruno has to be in it because he’s our best player
That leaves one from Fred, Pogba, McTominay and VDB for the third slot
For the next few weeks 2 of Matic, McTominay and Fred. Bruno probably in front, our defence needs a bit of babysitting for a couple weeks.. Try to phase VDB in. Pogba on bench for the time being. I'd be disappointed if VDB didn't offer more overall while being less of a pain in the balls to accomodate. So medium term its time to move Pogba on.
I don't doubt his contribution when we have the ball, seems pretty decent in that department (passing, movement, vision). But how about defensive side of his game?
He has tenacity and is combative enough, but part of his defensive contribution would be positioning to intercept like Carrick was so great at, as opposed to brute force DM work.
Thanks. Maybe it's not a bad idea to play him alongside McTominay in midfield behind Bruno. I have my doubts as it seems his natural instint is to get very close to the goal. It rarely works, Pogba being the most recent example.
Was it? I thought our performances dropped when we put Pogba back into the team after Bruno arrived.
I have no idea anymore. The only midfielder who is 100% guaranteed to start is Bruno.
Pogba is a good player, but we struggle when his midfield partner isn't doing an excellent job defensively. For now, I'd prefer to start a less skilled but more hard-working midfielder instead. I'm all for having having a bold starting XI, but it's pointless if we lose the midfield battle.
We need a top DM as much as a RW, imo.
Pogba is a good player, but we struggle when his midfield partner isn't doing an excellent job defensively. For now, I'd prefer to start a less skilled but more hard-working midfielder instead. I'm all for having having a bold starting XI, but it's pointless if we lose the midfield battle.
We need a top DM as much as a RW, imo.
Which Pogba should be doing himself. He also gets caught in possession too much.
Exactly.
If Pogba was only decent defensively and didn't squander possession so often, then we wouldn't need a great defensive midfielder next to him to cover for his mistakes. Playing with Pogba is like playing with two AMs, which is fine in theory, but not with the squad we have.
It might not work in the PL but I don't think it'll be for the same reason as Pogba as that's a discipline issue, VdB will do the role as asked, it will simply be down to how he copes with the PL physically, but I think some forget our Scholes/Carrick title winning midfield combo which wss fsr from physically imposing, I'd at least like to see us try VdB there to test out the possibilities.
-----------Fred--------Matic----------
----Bruno------VDB---------Rashford
----Bruno------VDB---------Rashford
I've been banging on for months now about the difference between a midfield two and a double pivot.
Matic+Pogba are a midfield two. Fred+McTominay are a double pivot.
A midfield two looks like this:
Matic is on the left screening behind Pogba. Pogba's starting position might be relatively deep, but he has much less defensive responsibility than Matic. This kind of partnership can work, but only if the DM has stamina and if the AM has decent workrate. Neither of those things is true for Matic+Pogba.
On the other hand, the double pivot looks like this:
Fred and McTominay play on an equal footing and are much more symmetrical positionally. Here's Ole specifically talking about Fred+McTominay as a partnership: https://www.manutd.com/en/videos/detail/ole-gunnar-solskjaer-pre-match-interview-171020
The point of this midfield setup is the way they take turns pressing and then sitting. When the ball comes down McTominay's side, McTominay presses high whilst Fred drops in behind:
And when the ball comes down Fred's side, the roles flip:
It's a much more coordinated partnership than any of our other alternatives. Seriously... pay attention to them the next time you watch them play together. There's no other United duo that have the same synergy.
On the other hand, I thinks it's fair to say that neither Fred nor McTominay are natural at #6. But because they work so well in tandem, they make it much easier for themselves to screen the defence. By only dropping deep in certain situations, there's less for them to worry about positionally. Like the difference between defending as a fullback as opposed to defending as a centreback - the direction of attack becomes more predictable.
I also take the point that it's not the most exciting selection. But when Ole plays Fred+McTominay, he's sacrificing some of our midfield creativity for the sake of nullifying the opposition's midfield creativity. And because United have a strong set of attackers and strong set of one-on-one defenders, the balance tips in our favour in most games. It's a bit like sacrificing your queen to take your opponent's queen when you know you have a stronger set of pieces left on the board.
Matic+Pogba are a midfield two. Fred+McTominay are a double pivot.
A midfield two looks like this:
Matic is on the left screening behind Pogba. Pogba's starting position might be relatively deep, but he has much less defensive responsibility than Matic. This kind of partnership can work, but only if the DM has stamina and if the AM has decent workrate. Neither of those things is true for Matic+Pogba.
On the other hand, the double pivot looks like this:
Fred and McTominay play on an equal footing and are much more symmetrical positionally. Here's Ole specifically talking about Fred+McTominay as a partnership: https://www.manutd.com/en/videos/detail/ole-gunnar-solskjaer-pre-match-interview-171020
The point of this midfield setup is the way they take turns pressing and then sitting. When the ball comes down McTominay's side, McTominay presses high whilst Fred drops in behind:
And when the ball comes down Fred's side, the roles flip:
It's a much more coordinated partnership than any of our other alternatives. Seriously... pay attention to them the next time you watch them play together. There's no other United duo that have the same synergy.
On the other hand, I thinks it's fair to say that neither Fred nor McTominay are natural at #6. But because they work so well in tandem, they make it much easier for themselves to screen the defence. By only dropping deep in certain situations, there's less for them to worry about positionally. Like the difference between defending as a fullback as opposed to defending as a centreback - the direction of attack becomes more predictable.
I also take the point that it's not the most exciting selection. But when Ole plays Fred+McTominay, he's sacrificing some of our midfield creativity for the sake of nullifying the opposition's midfield creativity. And because United have a strong set of attackers and strong set of one-on-one defenders, the balance tips in our favour in most games. It's a bit like sacrificing your queen to take your opponent's queen when you know you have a stronger set of pieces left on the board.
Excellent post.I've been banging on for months now about the difference between a midfield two and a double pivot.
Matic+Pogba are a midfield two. Fred+McTominay are a double pivot.
A midfield two looks like this:
Matic is on the left screening behind Pogba. Pogba's starting position might be relatively deep, but he has much less defensive responsibility than Matic. This kind of partnership can work, but only if the DM has stamina and if the AM has decent workrate. Neither of those things is true for Matic+Pogba.
On the other hand, the double pivot looks like this:
Fred and McTominay play on an equal footing and are much more symmetrical positionally. Here's Ole specifically talking about Fred+McTominay as a partnership: https://www.manutd.com/en/videos/detail/ole-gunnar-solskjaer-pre-match-interview-171020
The point of this midfield setup is the way they take turns pressing and then sitting. When the ball comes down McTominay's side, McTominay presses high whilst Fred drops in behind:
And when the ball comes down Fred's side, the roles flip:
It's a much more coordinated partnership than any of our other alternatives. Seriously... pay attention to them the next time you watch them play together. There's no other United duo that have the same synergy.
On the other hand, I thinks it's fair to say that neither Fred nor McTominay are natural at #6. But because they work so well in tandem, they make it much easier for themselves to screen the defence. By only dropping deep in certain situations, there's less for them to worry about positionally. Like the difference between defending as a fullback as opposed to defending as a centreback - the direction of attack becomes more predictable.
I also take the point that it's not the most exciting selection. But when Ole plays Fred+McTominay, he's sacrificing some of our midfield creativity for the sake of nullifying the opposition's midfield creativity. And because United have a strong set of attackers and strong set of one-on-one defenders, the balance tips in our favour in most games. It's a bit like sacrificing your queen to take your opponent's queen when you know you have a stronger set of pieces left on the board.
I find it difficult to name a nailed down Bruno + 2 because of the sheer amount of games.
Pogba can start alright, just never partner with Matic, alone. In a 3 MF scenario (on top of Bruno), this is fine. But in a 2 MF scenario, Fred is the minimum choice, ideally with McTom beside him. You simply cannot trust Pogba in a 2-men MF unless opposition is down to 10 men.
I would play Matic holding, Donny the #8 and Bruno the #10. Pogba can earn his starting spot again he has done nothing to hold that spot down.
No, Pogba came back off the bench in the first game back & started game after that I think. So he was part of the good run of form as well as the drop off.
Now I do believe his positional play in those games changed from almost alongside Fernandes at the beginning in a midfield 3 to back alongside Matic in a 2, but that's a different story.
For me, Matic has to be there.
I'd like to see the diamond midfield given a shot. I've been against it in the past due to our full backs, but I think Telles will help in that regard.
Matic, Fred and Mata can all easily rotate into the midfield, with Cavani and Greenwood as options upfront too.
McTominay
Pogba - Bruno
Donny
Rashford - Martial
Pogba - Bruno
Donny
Rashford - Martial
Matic, Fred and Mata can all easily rotate into the midfield, with Cavani and Greenwood as options upfront too.
Firstly, Scholes was a very special player so if VdB is anything like that then why not.
Secondly, and maybe most importantly this midfield had it's issues so I'm not sure it's something we should aspire to.
I'm holding my judgment until I see him in midfield though.
Agreed. It's worth to add that football world is obsessed with "typical no10" or "classic no6", while these kind of players are very unique. I get the idea Ole tried Pogba in that deeper role, on paper he has all the traits to be a great deep lying playmaker. But it didn't work out with him and Matic so hopefully we can build some confidence with a balanced midfield in Fred - McTominay combo. I like the way you described these two setups.I've been banging on for months now about the difference between a midfield two and a double pivot.
Matic+Pogba are a midfield two. Fred+McTominay are a double pivot.
A midfield two looks like this:
Matic is on the left screening behind Pogba. Pogba's starting position might be relatively deep, but he has much less defensive responsibility than Matic. This kind of partnership can work, but only if the DM has stamina and if the AM has decent workrate. Neither of those things is true for Matic+Pogba.
On the other hand, the double pivot looks like this:
Fred and McTominay play on an equal footing and are much more symmetrical positionally. Here's Ole specifically talking about Fred+McTominay as a partnership: https://www.manutd.com/en/videos/detail/ole-gunnar-solskjaer-pre-match-interview-171020
The point of this midfield setup is the way they take turns pressing and then sitting. When the ball comes down McTominay's side, McTominay presses high whilst Fred drops in behind:
And when the ball comes down Fred's side, the roles flip:
It's a much more coordinated partnership than any of our other alternatives. Seriously... pay attention to them the next time you watch them play together. There's no other United duo that have the same synergy.
On the other hand, I thinks it's fair to say that neither Fred nor McTominay are natural at #6. But because they work so well in tandem, they make it much easier for themselves to screen the defence. By only dropping deep in certain situations, there's less for them to worry about positionally. Like the difference between defending as a fullback as opposed to defending as a centreback - the direction of attack becomes more predictable.
I also take the point that it's not the most exciting selection. But when Ole plays Fred+McTominay, he's sacrificing some of our midfield creativity for the sake of nullifying the opposition's midfield creativity. And because United have a strong set of attackers and strong set of one-on-one defenders, the balance tips in our favour in most games. It's a bit like sacrificing your queen to take your opponent's queen when you know you have a stronger set of pieces left on the board.
There's one point that keeps repeating though, that without Pogba we lose some creativity in midfield. Although it might be a case, we also need to take under consideration that with Fred and McTominay the ball is moving faster to our forwards so that balances out really.
Just to be clear I'm not saying VdB will ever be Scholes level, it was just about the example of different types of midfielders that have worked in a double pivot, though I do agree it had it's flaws, VdB I think offers more than Scholes off the ball but obviously not as much on it.
That's how I feel, I think he can do it but it might not work in the PL, I just want to see it tried.
One thing ive found interesting just from this thread so far is that there doesnt seem to be any sort of consensus. Pretty much every player except Bruno has got posters saying "definitely in" and "definitely out".
Agreed
Donny McT
Bruno
Bring Pogba on after 60 mns, and if we're parking the bus then Fred all day ahead of VDBBruno
Our problem isnt personel
Our problem is pogba doesnt want to play as instructed. He wants out. Simple as that.
Any formation that has him in it would break down.
Our problem is pogba doesnt want to play as instructed. He wants out. Simple as that.
Any formation that has him in it would break down.
That is the case indeed. People taking extreme positions on both ends but I'd say there is no dominant proposition.
How about:
Fred - McT
Bruno - VdB - Pogba
Rash
Fred - McT
Bruno - VdB - Pogba
Rash
Would a system similar to Leceister's work
Pogba(Tielemans)........Bruno(Maddison)
.................... Mctominay(Ndidi)..................
Pogba(Tielemans)........Bruno(Maddison)
.................... Mctominay(Ndidi)..................
Fantastic post.I've been banging on for months now about the difference between a midfield two and a double pivot.
Matic+Pogba are a midfield two. Fred+McTominay are a double pivot.
A midfield two looks like this:
Matic is on the left screening behind Pogba. Pogba's starting position might be relatively deep, but he has much less defensive responsibility than Matic. This kind of partnership can work, but only if the DM has stamina and if the AM has decent workrate. Neither of those things is true for Matic+Pogba.
On the other hand, the double pivot looks like this:
Fred and McTominay play on an equal footing and are much more symmetrical positionally. Here's Ole specifically talking about Fred+McTominay as a partnership: https://www.manutd.com/en/videos/detail/ole-gunnar-solskjaer-pre-match-interview-171020
The point of this midfield setup is the way they take turns pressing and then sitting. When the ball comes down McTominay's side, McTominay presses high whilst Fred drops in behind:
And when the ball comes down Fred's side, the roles flip:
It's a much more coordinated partnership than any of our other alternatives. Seriously... pay attention to them the next time you watch them play together. There's no other United duo that have the same synergy.
On the other hand, I thinks it's fair to say that neither Fred nor McTominay are natural at #6. But because they work so well in tandem, they make it much easier for themselves to screen the defence. By only dropping deep in certain situations, there's less for them to worry about positionally. Like the difference between defending as a fullback as opposed to defending as a centreback - the direction of attack becomes more predictable.
I also take the point that it's not the most exciting selection. But when Ole plays Fred+McTominay, he's sacrificing some of our midfield creativity for the sake of nullifying the opposition's midfield creativity. And because United have a strong set of attackers and strong set of one-on-one defenders, the balance tips in our favour in most games. It's a bit like sacrificing your queen to take your opponent's queen when you know you have a stronger set of pieces left on the board.
I'd still argue we should revert back to playing split strikers with Bruno playing the Role Martial would normally play.
Matic
VDB......Pogba
Rashford....Bruno....Martial
Something along these lines, as I think it suits our personnel more and can easily be changed depending on what is happening during the game.VDB......Pogba
Rashford....Bruno....Martial
I just checked. They started 17 games together last season. Most of which were in the league. Have a look for yourself: http://www.stretfordend.co.uk/seasons/season2020.html
Only reason it wasn't more is because McTominay spent a couple of months being injured. Don't talk complete bollocks and pretend it's fact.
This Pogba nonsense is boring. It's just clear as day now that he can't play in a midfield two or in a holding/box to box midfield role. How many times over do people need this to be proven to them? He looks much better being used how he was tonight in a more advanced role. His only consistent run of form in a United shirt also came when he was played in a more advanced role. It just seems very obvious to me. He's an attacking player. All of his good attributes are attacking. All of the good things he does in a game are attacking.
FredTominay is back :blessed:
I do wonder If Ole has finally seen the light or we'll see Pogba/Matic again at some point. The season might be looking very different if he'd started with Fred/MCT against Palace.
Forget about how talented pogba is, these 3 lads play together as a well oiled unit. He has to stick with this until injury or loss of form
Looks like we require energy in midfield instead of skill. Pogba wont do what Fred and McTominey are doing. Bruno is doing both covering alot of ground and providing us with ability to make creative passes. Looks like midfield of Mctominey, Fred and Bruno.
I'll make an argument in favour of Pogba despite being utterly unconvinced by him - he played well when he came on.
He wasn't in a midfield two though so its not that surprising. I dont see him as a 10 either though so seeing a 3 man midfield with Shaw playing pretty conservatively and it working well was encouraging. At least theres some option that makes sense for him in the team. I wouldn't use it that often regardless tbh. It worked well tonight but the lack of width would bite us in the ass sooner than later. I'd think of it more as a good option if Bruno is rested or whatever.
He wasn't in a midfield two though so its not that surprising. I dont see him as a 10 either though so seeing a 3 man midfield with Shaw playing pretty conservatively and it working well was encouraging. At least theres some option that makes sense for him in the team. I wouldn't use it that often regardless tbh. It worked well tonight but the lack of width would bite us in the ass sooner than later. I'd think of it more as a good option if Bruno is rested or whatever.
There’s only one person talking bollocks. You said McTominay, Fred and Bruno. What I said is fact. McTominay missed a grand total of two games injured after Bruno signed. Have a look yourself.