The 4-2-2-2 formation

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
Ole switched from a. 3-5-2 to the 4-2-2-2 formation against PSG and we really came alive.

back 4. Fred and Mctominay midfield with Bruno and Pogba ahead, and Rashford and Martial.

we played some absolutely beautiful football and retained possession really well.

Please Ole let’s see this more often!
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
11,862
We should be playing a 352 on the defensive that switches to a 442 diamond.
 

TMDaines

Fun sponge.
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
13,906
Was nice to see Rashford carry such a threat from the inside right channel late on. Looked good. AWB did a decent job of getting forward to support too.
 

Dante

Average bang
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
25,280
Location
My wit's end
Fred and McTominay is a proper double pivot in the truest sense of the term. They each take turns pressing and shielding. And at least they make us hard to play against, whilst forcing a battle to win the midfield.

Matic and Pogba are a flat midfield two. Matic gets asked to do all the dirty work, Pogba is relied upon to provide the creativity. The problem is that both have severe weaknesses for their roles (mobility, press resistance, consistency, pass selection, etc). Unfortunately, they're also a piece of piss for the opposition to pick the ball off, and you could drive a bus through the gaps they leave between them.

At the end of the day, you can't just replace the former with the latter and expect a like-for-like system. It's the equivalent of swapping low grade diesel for high octane petrol in your car. One might be better than the other on paper. But your engine can only run on one of them.

The double pivot of Fred and McTominay is the reason we had any success post-Bruno. It the pairing we need to go back to. We were doomed the moment Pogba regained fitness, despite him obviously be more talented than the rest.

So although United may not be perfect when Fred and McTominay play, you can actually measure their solidity by the relatively small number chances they let through the middle. Just watch them and compare to the alternative.

We only have two options to avoid a complete disaster for the rest of the season imo.

a. 5-3-2 (okay, it's not Fred and McTominay, but it does pack central midfield and central defence to give the same benefit)

Rashford-------Martial

Pogba--VdB--Bruno

Telles------------------------Williams
Shaw--Maguire--Bailly*

DDG

*maybe McTominay/AWB for Bailly


b. 4-2-2-2

Rashford--Martial

Pogba---------------Bruno

Fred---McTominay

Telles------------------------------Williams
Maguire--Bailly

DDG​
I posted the above a few weeks ago in another thread.

TL;DR I like the 5-3-2 but prefer the 4-2-2-2 for this squad. We saw both today, and things went exactly as you would expect. One or the other needs to be the way forward. In particular, the 4-2-2-2 suits our best players perfectly.
 

Untd55

Full Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2018
Messages
1,516
It probably needs a change because 4-3-3 just doesn't work for us when trying to break teams down. We have no technical dribbler on the wings, so they are not great at dribbling through tight spaces; ours are speed dribblers much better for when you have space.

None of our attackers, aside from Cavani, are good in the air, so putting in crosses isn't that useful.

Pogba has always been more useful further up the pitch, so it allows for that with Fernandes. Also, Pogba is one of few outfield players good in the air, but he is too far back in our normal games.

Also, changing to this formation creates more depth in our attack (with Greenwood and Cavani as options) and gives De Beek more chances to play with two positions available.

It's the best formation, fitting the players, and for depth purposes.
 

Chief123

Full Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
12,789
Ole switched from a. 3-5-2 to the 4-2-2-2 formation against PSG and we really came alive.

back 4. Fred and Mctominay midfield with Bruno and Pogba ahead, and Rashford and Martial.

we played some absolutely beautiful football and retained possession really well.

Please Ole let’s see this more often!
Although it worked well it’s hard to judge it in this match. PSG were dreadful defensively. They had 4 forwards on the pitch who had no interest in getting back to help out. We had so much space to play in. Also there was no pressure or intensity from PSG.

The formation could work well but definitely not a normal situation today.
 

100

binary bot
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
10,914
Location
HELLO
Why has it not been a thing before this?

We've been crying out for greater protection of the defence and the dilemna has been dropping Pogba or not.

Dropping one of Greenwood/Martial/Rashford for an extra midfielder seems like the obvious solution.
 

HankHill

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jul 3, 2016
Messages
332
Location
England
Supports
Ewe Night Tid.
It looked more like a diamond to me, Fred was further ahead of McTominay and positioned to the right. Pogba was on the left and Bruno was in the middle behind the front two.
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
Although it worked well it’s hard to judge it in this match. PSG were dreadful defensively. They had 4 forwards on the pitch who had no interest in getting back to help out. We had so much space to play in. Also there was no pressure or intensity from PSG.

The formation could work well but definitely not a normal situation today.
It’s no different really than a 442 or 4231, we just have the “wingers” more inside which allows the fullbacks to push on.

wan Bissaka and telles will get bundles of room.
 

SoCross

Full Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
3,569
It looked more like a diamond to me, Fred was further ahead of McTominay and positioned to the right. Pogba was on the left and Bruno was in the middle behind the front two.
Agreed. I thought as much. Bruno was clearly in the #10 role.
 

Chief123

Full Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
12,789
It looked more like a diamond to me, Fred was further ahead of McTominay and positioned to the right. Pogba was on the left and Bruno was in the middle behind the front two.
I thought this too. It had more of a diamond look to it.
 

ThinkTank@Cafe

Full Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
2,381
Location
Kazakhstan
Great thread. An aggressive 4-2-2-2 with Bruno and Pogba as 10s, that’s potentially a trademark set up. VdB purchase makes perfect sense.
 

Berbasbullet

Too Boring For A Funny Tagline
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
20,031
It looked more like a diamond to me, Fred was further ahead of McTominay and positioned to the right. Pogba was on the left and Bruno was in the middle behind the front two.
It was a diamond, and it is our best shape, it is also close to a 433.
 

Nep77

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
453
Location
Helsinki,Finland
It looked like 4-3-1-2 for me and playing 3 midfielder with fred on right Scott on middle and pogba on left. Everyone is calling for 3 man midfield and it shows we play much better with it and don't need to play pobga in a double pivot where he has never played well apart from here and there.
 

Okey

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
2,426
I posted the above a few weeks ago in another thread.

TL;DR I like the 5-3-2 but prefer the 4-2-2-2 for this squad. We saw both today, and things went exactly as you would expect. One or the other needs to be the way forward. In particular, the 4-2-2-2 suits our best players perfectly.
Spot on! I did say in the pre match that if we had a combative midfield to win balls, I wouldn't be surprised if we got a result. Too often our problems come from being overrun in the midfield. Fred and McT are short of talent and could definitely be upgraded, but with the squad we have now, that's our most solid double pivot. Put the flair players ahead of them to do the fancy stuff.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
13,127
Supports
Erik ten Hag
Just leave Pogba as the super sub. Why are we changing things when nothing is broken?
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
Agreed. I thought as much. Bruno was clearly in the #10 role.
It looked like 4-3-1-2 for me and playing 3 midfielder with fred on right Scott on middle and pogba on left. Everyone is calling for 3 man midfield and it shows we play much better with it and don't need to play pobga in a double pivot where he has never played well apart from here and there.
Not when pogba came on. Bruno was clearly more to the right and pogba the left, but they both floated around in the space which is the point of the formation.
 

RedDF

Full Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Messages
1,798
Location
London
Trouble is this only works against team that leave space behind, reckon we’d struggle against mid table sides without proper width
 

Josep Dowling

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
7,622
A lot is made of formations but really it comes down to movement. 4-2-2-2 worked great when Pogba came on because Martial and Rashford played wide. The CBs didn’t know what to do and it drags them out. I think teams should play like that against Liverpool but they never do.
 

Leftback99

Might have a bedwetting fetish.
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
13,967
Trouble is this only works against team that leave space behind, reckon we’d struggle against mid table sides without proper width
True. The right side in particular would struggle.
 

jderbyshire

Has anybody seen my fleshlight?
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,175
It was a diamond.

McTominay
Fred ----------- Pogba
Bruno​
 

RORY65

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2009
Messages
4,452
It was a diamond.

McTominay
Fred ----------- Pogba
Bruno​
We used a fairly fluid shape similar to that quite a lot when Ole was the caretaker with Lingard playing as the number 10 behind 2 split strikers, in many ways it suits out best players because Rashford and Martial can drift, Bruno can play high up the field and Pogba has less defensive responsibility with two other midfielders so it's definitely worth looking at again. The one obvious concern is the lack of quality from Wan-Bissaka going forward but we haven't yet got to the stage where we've found a system that looks convincing when we have to take the initiative but can also be used for counter attacking, which is clearly where Ole is most confident, when we play stronger opposition like tonight.
 

Dominos

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,959
Location
Manchester
I have no idea what we were playing after Pogba came on but it was working. I assume it was a diamond with Fred Mctominay Pogba and Bruno.

Playing a diamond I'm not sure how we'd cope long term on the flanks in both an attacking and defensive sense, but might be worth a try because the last 30 minutes tonight were fantastic.
 

K_Ash

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
976
I have no idea what we were playing after Pogba came on but it was working. I assume it was a diamond with Fred Mctominay Pogba and Bruno.

Playing a diamond I'm not sure how we'd cope long term on the flanks in both an attacking and defensive sense, but might be worth a try because the last 30 minutes tonight were fantastic.
it was a 100% Diamond...folks need to stop lying...it was a 100% Diamond
 
Last edited:

Berbasbullet

Too Boring For A Funny Tagline
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
20,031
We used a fairly fluid shape similar to that quite a lot when Ole was the caretaker with Lingard playing as the number 10 behind 2 split strikers, in many ways it suits out best players because Rashford and Martial can drift, Bruno can play high up the field and Pogba has less defensive responsibility with two other midfielders so it's definitely worth looking at again. The one obvious concern is the lack of quality from Wan-Bissaka going forward but we haven't yet got to the stage where we've found a system that looks convincing when we have to take the initiative but can also be used for counter attacking, which is clearly where Ole is most confident, when we play stronger opposition like tonight.
Agreed, I think Bruno as the 10 behind those two is worth trying this weekend.
 

Andycoleno9

matchday malcontent
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
28,576
Location
Croatia
We don't have wingers and we have lots of pretty good midfielders. I hope that we will go with 4222 and 352 and drop 433.
 

pratyush_utd

Can't tell DeGea and Onana apart.
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Messages
8,421
This formation not only suits Pogba, Bruno,Scott and Fred but also VDB and Mata.. they can just slot in. Need AWB and Shaw/Telles to provide width.

Cavani, Martial, Rashford and Greenwood to fight for 2 position upfront.
 

Danillaco

Full Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
4,131
Location
Rio
Ole switched from a. 3-5-2 to the 4-2-2-2 formation against PSG and we really came alive.

back 4. Fred and Mctominay midfield with Bruno and Pogba ahead, and Rashford and Martial.

we played some absolutely beautiful football and retained possession really well.

Please Ole let’s see this more often!
I think I posted about it pre game, but having Van de Beek instead of Pogba. We have potential to be really good and have depth at defense, lb, cm and cam, and with the strikers.
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
100% Diamond
Mate we all watched the same game, plenty of times they were a flat 4222 also. Yes it can merge into a diamond at times but that’s the point it’s a flexible formation.

in possession Scott and Fred sat deeper and controlled from there which allowed shaw and AWB to overlap pogba and Fernandes, which let them come inside and play where they are best.

Fred certainly wasn’t pushed right up high on the right side for most of it, only when winning the ball back did he go hunting.
 

K_Ash

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
976
Mate we all watched the same game, plenty of times they were a flat 4222 also. Yes it can merge into a diamond at times but that’s the point it’s a flexible formation.

in possession Scott and Fred sat deeper and controlled from there which allowed shaw and AWB to overlap pogba and Fernandes, which let them come inside and play where they are best.

Fred certainly wasn’t pushed right up high on the right side for most of it, only when winning the ball back did he go hunting.
A Diamond is a Diamond. Then we were flat 3 infront of our back 4.
The point is the Diamond puts Paul(left) and Bruno in their best positions.
 

Dante

Average bang
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
25,280
Location
My wit's end
You can spin it to being a diamond if way you want. But it was a 4-2-2-2 if only because the supposed right/left points of the diamond (Fred and Pogba respectively) were playing on completely different lines.

Between the 67th minute and the 93rd minute, Fred took 10 out of 18 touches in his own half and McTominay took 9 out of 16 touches in his own half. Meanwhile, Pogba took 4 out of 28 touches in his own half and Bruno took 0 out of 19 touches in his own half. That should be enough to settle it. The first two played as DMs behind the latter two who played as AMs.

You could probably make the case that it was a lop-sided diamond because Pogba was pushing up as high as Bruno whilst Fred was dropping back as deep as McTominay. But that still means it's a 4-2-2-2 by any reasonable interpretation. The first '2' played close together on a different line from the second '2' who played close together on a different line from the final '2'. A diamond (which is a 4-1-2-1-2) demonstrate distinct lines in midfield, which wasn't the case yesterday.

I can also selectively pick out screenshots.






 
Last edited:

gregor

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
598
I think 3-4-1-2 and 4-3-1-2 should be our prefered formations. Our personnel suites them and also most other teams play like this.
3-4-1-2 to be used against stronger oposition.

3-4-1-2
De Gea
Tuanzebe/Bailly - Maguire/Lindelof - Shaw/Mengi
AWB/TFM - McTominay/Matic - Fred/??? - Pogba/??? - Telles/Williams
Bruno/VdB
Grenwood/Cavani - Rashford/Martial

4-3-1-2
De Gea
AWB/TFM - Tuanzebe/Bailly/Mengi - Maguire/Lindelof - Telles/Shaw/Williams
McTominay/Matic - Fred/Pogba
Bruno/VdB
Grenwood/Cavani - Rashford/Martial
 
Last edited:

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
You can spin it to being a diamond if way you want. But it was a 4-2-2-2 if only because the supposed right/left points of the diamond (Fred and Pogba respectively) were playing on completely different lines.

Between the 67th minute and the 93rd minute, Fred took 10 out of 18 touches in his own half and McTominay took 9 out of 16 touches in his own half. Meanwhile, Pogba took 4 out of 28 touches in his own half and Bruno took 0 out of 19 touches in his own half. That should be enough to settle it. The first two played as DMs behind the latter two who played as AMs.

You could probably make the case that it was a lop-sided diamond because Pogba was pushing up as high as Bruno whilst Fred was dropping back as deep as McTominay. But that still means it's a 4-2-2-2 by any reasonable interpretation. The first '2' played close together on a different line from the second '2' who played close together on a different line from the final '2'. A diamond (which is a 4-1-2-1-2) demonstrate distinct lines in midfield, which wasn't the case yesterday.

I can also selectively pick out screenshots.






Thank you, somebody with more effort and talent than me :lol:

it was clear that it was a 4-2-2-2 to me IMO. The most important thing though was having the solid base of the 2 holders and then letting pogba and fernandes go and do their work.

@K_Ash