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To those defending it and saying it’s normal. Nah not during a pandemic. I’d give the vultures credit as they haven’t sacked anybody yet.
Our debt has increased 133% to £474.1 million
- Thread starter Livewire1974
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
To those defending it and saying it’s normal. Nah not during a pandemic. I’d give the vultures credit as they haven’t sacked anybody yet.
Is anyone surprised ?
I’m surprised they only took 23mill to be honest
I’m surprised they only took 23mill to be honest
So what you’re saying is turning the caf green and gold won’t work ?
The company I work for (not in the UK) continued paying a dividend during the pandemic.
To be fair we continued to make money so suspending the dividend wouldn't make sense.
To be fair a lot of companies probably can’t afford to. I assume we can.
You havent studies economics, have you? Or read why the 23 odd mil was taken out? The reason behind it is very clear..
Some of you need to do some reading on what a dividend is and how it works before saying they're 'taking' £23m. To an extent they are but they're not taking it out of the cash register or crippling the club for it like some of you seem to be suggesting, they're actually owed dividends.
And by the way, I'm not endorsing what they're doing but this is how businesses are run.
And by the way, I'm not endorsing what they're doing but this is how businesses are run.
Fair enough mate,good post.
I agree on most what you are saying,i would just prefer to be without debt when you see the stadium needs a serious fixing up for example.
Fair points,that i did not think of mate. Good post.
A quick google search says the dividend is payed out to shareholders when the company makes a profit and the surplus is reinvested back into the company.
Pretty sure we are not making a profit if we’re £474m in debt.
Most large companies have some sort of manageable debt. Saves on taxes etc.
Yearly results can have profits even though there exists a longterm debt.
Edit: Also, I'm not sure why people are making an issue of the dividends now, it was announced back in March.
That's your problem right there my friend.
Do you know what our yearly profit was this year by any chance give me an idea of what’s going on?
We made a loss this year (like everyone due to the pandemic) of $29m. Last year we made a profit of $24m.
You're technically right and wrong, but forgetting something important in terms of the ownership of the club. The Glazer family controls some the shares, and the board.
1. The board of the company can suspend dividend payouts for a number of reason. There will be a provision in the company bylaws that permits this action. This is fairly standard and is included in most corporate bylaws. Note that a company is not obligated to pay dividends.
2. Dividends is simply return on investment. That is all it is. Money in for future return. - The Glazer family have invested around 0 dollars of their own money. The purcahse of the club was secured through loans secured against the clubs assets and PIK Loans. these loans have since been sold off to hedge funds. All investment over the years is paid for by Manchester United without any outside funding (Bank loans not included).
The current situation was the perfect time to say "Ok, taking dividends is not going to look good, we agree to suspend or deferr them". When Ed comes out and says that the club is heavily affected by the current financial climate, which has latest affected our transfer window negatively - Well, the owners still saw fit to take their share of the clubs profits.
Suspending dividends is very common if the company are safeguarding their position through a pending financial difficulty, or keep their earnings to invest into the company. For example I choose not to take my full share of dividends since I invest my surplus back into my company.
On the other end, General Motors earlier this year suspended dividends to protect their factories during the fallout of the global pandemic. Their #1 priority was to safeguard the company. The Glazer family #1 priority is to collect cash - and as a side effect showcasing the company strength.
In summary, the Glazer family could have suspened dividends and taking that big a payout in the current climate stinks of horsedung.
According to the article above we made a loss of £23.2m in the latest financial year, so pretty much the dividend cost on top of everything. But We're also getting delayed payments due to the pandemic, where at least an additional £30m from tv revenue was received after the financial year ended June 30th that would normally belong to the last financial year.
Results aren't black and white, and it was the board's decision to go ahead with what has been a yearly dividend payment now. You can have a good year even if you show a loss for the results, this due to investments or other things that make it likely that future years will be profitable again.
Now, am I defending dividends? No. Our club is the only PL club listed on a stock exchange since that was more profitable for the glazers. And we are the only club in the PL that has had more money taken out of the club than what the owners have put in.
I was just trying to explain a bit about how company results, dividends etc works.
In an ideal world we would be owned by the fans or at least some rich person who made us debt free and didn't take out any money (nor needed to invest either really, just let us run on everything we generate ourselves).
Likelihood of that happening though?
So they basically put us in more debt this year so. Maybe shouldn’t have taken out a dividend this year and waited until next year.
'Info released', also known as accounts, which every company has go file annually.
Moving this to today's other financial results thread.
Moving this to today's other financial results thread.
I agree with what you're saying and I'm aware of most of this but a few things;
I absolutely guarantee that any company deferring the payment of dividends now will pay out double, if not more, once the economy returns to normal. It's not within anyone's interested who finds themselves in a position to receive dividends to turn them down unless they stand to gain more at a later date or the company is in grave danger of going under.
We know that the amount of dividends paid out is agreed to be paid on a quarterly basis once a year. So the money set out to pay said dividends was done before things went to shit and of course United have known that this money will be spoken for regardless as they have an obligation to payout.
It's attractive to investors if United continue to pay out dividends during a pandemic when no one else is, and lets face it, despite the what should have been an illegal takeover that riddled us with debt, our revenue is insane compared to other clubs. So although the Glazers haven't put any money in, they're certainly raised it.
And lastly, the amount of tax United pay on any profit made is criminal. As a business owner of a football club, if I'm due dividends of £23m and the club is going to make, let's say, £10m in profit this season, you can absolutely bet I'm taking those divs (as long as it doesn't cripple the club in anyway) because the tax man can get fecked if he thinks he's getting £5m for nothing.
When it comes to the numbers these guys know exactly what they're doing, fortunately for us.
I absolutely guarantee that any company deferring the payment of dividends now will pay out double, if not more, once the economy returns to normal. It's not within anyone's interested who finds themselves in a position to receive dividends to turn them down unless they stand to gain more at a later date or the company is in grave danger of going under.
We know that the amount of dividends paid out is agreed to be paid on a quarterly basis once a year. So the money set out to pay said dividends was done before things went to shit and of course United have known that this money will be spoken for regardless as they have an obligation to payout.
It's attractive to investors if United continue to pay out dividends during a pandemic when no one else is, and lets face it, despite the what should have been an illegal takeover that riddled us with debt, our revenue is insane compared to other clubs. So although the Glazers haven't put any money in, they're certainly raised it.
And lastly, the amount of tax United pay on any profit made is criminal. As a business owner of a football club, if I'm due dividends of £23m and the club is going to make, let's say, £10m in profit this season, you can absolutely bet I'm taking those divs (as long as it doesn't cripple the club in anyway) because the tax man can get fecked if he thinks he's getting £5m for nothing.
When it comes to the numbers these guys know exactly what they're doing, fortunately for us.
Thanks I understand now, the Glazers get paid no matter what. Wouldn’t it be great to be them never really put anything in just played about with numbers and are able to make a profit for themselves every year, incredible really.
If you don't understand corporate finance structures I can see how you might make this mistake. If this were the case then every single company in the FTSE would not be making profit as they all hold material levels of debt. In most cases the debt facilitates generation of even higher levels of profit than would otherwise be possible.
No I don’t really understand it, but the guys give me a quick business lesson there to give me the jist of it..
We were debt free before the Glazers took over. Not 1 pound of that loan was ever invested in the club.
Good - keep saying it.
This
Its not just the Glazers that are an issue. Whoever owns that debt is making a mint out of the club too. Who is with, Morgan Stanley or someone?
Yes, you’re obviously not an accountant. So perhaps stop trying to bitch about finances when you clearly haven’t a clue how any of it works.
the fecking Glazers, taking dividends even when the club is crawling with the debt in this hard economic situation.
You know dividends is paid after tax right? Dividends isn’t a deductible expense. The club would still be paying tax on that £10m profit.
The amount we are owing in debts, other clubs can only dreamed of!
For those complaining about listing on the NYSE. I understand how this angers you but believe me it’s been incredibly valuable.
it’s provided an incredible platform for marketing and investment in the US market which is bigger than everywhere else put together other than China.
There’s a reason why Madrid’s Perez was almost crying (if you can find the his reaction somewhere) when we did it because RM knew that at that moment we were going to blitz them commercially in the US market. All of Europe’s other top clubs other than Bayern rely on state aid to stay at the top and don’t qualify to list on any stock exchange, otherwise they also would have done it already. I wouldn’t rule out other clubs listing on a stock exchange if the PL starts to become more dominant and stable at the same time. Arsenal or spurs spring to mind.
it’s provided an incredible platform for marketing and investment in the US market which is bigger than everywhere else put together other than China.
There’s a reason why Madrid’s Perez was almost crying (if you can find the his reaction somewhere) when we did it because RM knew that at that moment we were going to blitz them commercially in the US market. All of Europe’s other top clubs other than Bayern rely on state aid to stay at the top and don’t qualify to list on any stock exchange, otherwise they also would have done it already. I wouldn’t rule out other clubs listing on a stock exchange if the PL starts to become more dominant and stable at the same time. Arsenal or spurs spring to mind.
Imagine if he had bought us. Our owner would be the president
cnut would have fired saf.
This is a football fan forum not an accountant forum so stop acting like a fecking arrogant jerk who thinks he knows everything.
Your post doesnt add any value other than i shouldnt voice my opinion cause i dont know how accounting works.
I wont answer any more of your posts,life is too short.
But why is our debt so high in the first place?. Why and to whom do we owe so much money to?. Why are we keeping such a high debt level and does the Red football holdings have anything to do with the debt?
I was saying over the summer United needed to sell to raise cash, and a number of actions suggested they have a cash issue. It’s no surprise they are looking at the prem league structure or European super league. If they lost 70m this season, what will it be this season..
First of all, dividend was approved in February.
And second, shareholders do not inject capital. Nobody ever just gifts money in business, that is not how any of it works. Even if they inject capital, it would be debt. Companies in distress issue bonds (debt) or open/extend credit facilities.
And in today's world the Glazers leveraged takeover would not have passed the fit & proper test! Basically Woodward facilitated a mugging.
Dividends or not is a bizarre discussion!
The Glazers do what every capitalist owner do around the world. They have whenever is possible done it in the past and they will do it in the future as long as they own the club. That’s how this ownership works.
I almost never take notice to political opinions when we talk about public listed companies. If I want to know anything out of the ordinary I read the financial report. I recommend those of you who’re skeptical to do the same because then criticism would be more about facts and less about emotions or just wild opinions.
MUFC are in a healthy condition in the middle of a Pandemic. That’s a fact, not a opinion.
The club didn’t use the Pandemic in a unethical way as far as I know. I don’t like this ownership for many reasons but to criticize the owners because they use their legal right to earn money is bizarre. My wealth is depending on dividends, my pension who’s partly controlled by my national government use the same system to increase value so me and other oldies can survive when we’re not physically fit enough to work. This is how modern economy works.
Just for a comparison regarding ownerships.
Multi national companies like Amazon, Apple, Facebook, IKEA, Nike, VW and many many other famous brands are operating in a far more tax avoiding way then the Glazers. Not to mention Bill Gates or the Clinton family. There you can talk about hypocrisy and unethical behavior.
The Glazers do what every capitalist owner do around the world. They have whenever is possible done it in the past and they will do it in the future as long as they own the club. That’s how this ownership works.
I almost never take notice to political opinions when we talk about public listed companies. If I want to know anything out of the ordinary I read the financial report. I recommend those of you who’re skeptical to do the same because then criticism would be more about facts and less about emotions or just wild opinions.
MUFC are in a healthy condition in the middle of a Pandemic. That’s a fact, not a opinion.
The club didn’t use the Pandemic in a unethical way as far as I know. I don’t like this ownership for many reasons but to criticize the owners because they use their legal right to earn money is bizarre. My wealth is depending on dividends, my pension who’s partly controlled by my national government use the same system to increase value so me and other oldies can survive when we’re not physically fit enough to work. This is how modern economy works.
Just for a comparison regarding ownerships.
Multi national companies like Amazon, Apple, Facebook, IKEA, Nike, VW and many many other famous brands are operating in a far more tax avoiding way then the Glazers. Not to mention Bill Gates or the Clinton family. There you can talk about hypocrisy and unethical behavior.
Imagine all the money that could be invested into the club be it staff, players, facilities or Old Trafford if we werent paying off the same debt every 5 years only for it to accumulate again due to interest.
FA/Premier League should bring in anti debt regulations with a transfer ban as long as a club is over a certain amount of debt. Say 50 million.
That would make the Glazers sick and I'd love it.
FA/Premier League should bring in anti debt regulations with a transfer ban as long as a club is over a certain amount of debt. Say 50 million.
That would make the Glazers sick and I'd love it.