A shortage of world class strikers!

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:

I agree that there are less “traditional” forwards who you could consider world class, but 20/30 years ago you didn’t have players like Son, Messi, Ronaldo, Rashford, Salah and many more who you wouldn’t necessarily call forwards, but put in brilliant numbers.

Click to expand...

Would have loved to have seen Kanchelskis playing that sort of role. I think he kind of did that one season at Everton when he got 15 in the league but not fully, it wasn't strictly a thing. Loved watching him at United as it was but he could have put up serious numbers playing for a top team in that sort of system once it was well understood. 20+ league goals every season I'm sure.

Bryan Roy was kind of doing it at Forest at about the same time with Collymore as the focal point but again not precisely. Poor numbers by today's standards but he was scoring more than a typical winger at the time and looking to link. Suppose we have to mention Thierry Henry in the evlution of that sort of idea too with his penchant for drifting out wide and cutting in.

RashyForPM said:

Agree with all this but to add on, they educated then aspiring superstars too, making their dream becoming wingers rather than strikers. It’s probably for the worst actually, as no winger is matching Messi and Ronaldo’s numbers anytime soon.

Click to expand...

Yeah exactly. I think it was recent I found that Mbappe was quite a fan of C.Ronaldo.

Whilst Mbappe has played CF, I think in past generations he would have played much more there. Right now he is taking the role of wingers on both sides which shows how Ronaldo being one of his idols may have effected him growing up.

Football these days is such that, for the most part, the wide players are the main source of goals and the largest attacking threat, rather than the strikers. Liverpool have been the best team in England for a couple years now, and their biggest attacking threats are their wide players. Similarly PSG with Neymar and Mbappe, Madrid when they had Ronaldo and Bale, Barcelona with Messi etc. With more of the focus on productive wide players and focusing on development of them, it makes sense that there would be less top quality CF like Aguero or Suarez coming through.

OleBoiii said:

3. Fullbacks went from being arguably the least important position to possibly one of the most important. Fullbacks have taken over the role of the winger, but is still expected to defend like before. It's a borderline impossible task, and thus there are very few fullbacks that don't receive regular, harsh criticism.

4. The central midfield position is a weird one. Ironically, things seem to move back to the days where midfielders were supposed to do everything well. Typical DMs and AMs still exist, but they are not as prevalent as they were 10 years ago. Seeing as the midfield is the most important area of the pitch, it makes sense that things change so rapidly there.

Click to expand...

Also on a larger point about football as a whole, these are two excellently made points. Ten years ago having a specialized DM and AM were the way that all teams were set up, now there seems to be no place in football for a player that can only perform the duties of one of these roles. And fullbacks are, in modern football, the second most important position after CM.

I think the opposite, there seems to be plenty of excellent strikers coming through. It's at centre back there's a massive hole of world class talent.

OleBoiii said:

. Smalling would probably have been considered a world class defender 20-25 years ago.

Click to expand...

Costacurta, Maldini, Baresi, Ferrara, Nesta, Cannavaro, Blanc, Desailly, Jurgen Kohler and Jaap Stam say ''Hello'' and pass on regards from many many CB's not deemed World Class, that were still miles better than Smalling

Most teams played a variant of 442 a decade or 2 ago which meant there was room for an extra striker in squads? as teams began to swap a striker for an extra midfielder its only natural that 10 years later less full strikers are being developed, and their skillsets being pushed outwide or as no.10s at a push.

I agree with redsky though, the main shortage for the last decade has been Centre backs. it feels like after spain began a bit of a midfield revolution, all the top players have been perhaps pushed into developing as Midfielders? ie academy CB options get moved to a CDM perhaps?

Josh 76 said:

3. AWB would have been the best full back in the world 30 years ago.

Click to expand...

No offense, the hell he would and not just an Irish thing or been anti english, but Irwin was ten times the player AWB is. As he could defend one on one just like Awb, scored all sorts of goals, free kicks, penos, open play, had better positional awareness, great at going forward and getting back and not strolling back like Awb does at times and could use both feet.

I have said it since last year, the closest thing to Irwin in the EPL today, would be both AWB and TAA combined as one. I don't see why they can't give even Evra a coaching job to teach our full backs the art of attacking as well as defending.

The game has changed. Gone are the days of a 4-4-2 and replaced with a 4-3-3. 20 years ago if a team switched to a 4-3-3 it was with one central midfielder, two wingers and 3 strikers. if you ever played with 3 midfielders it was a 4-5-1. And with those wingers you had a right footer on the right and a left footer on the left. And yes, they did score some goals, but their main job was to provide assists to the two strikers. FB's joined the attack a little, but nowhere near as much as they do now. In my opinion, someone like Lukaku was born in the wrong era. He would have been a beast in the 90's and early 2000's with a strike partner. Now a striker is rated more on his hold up play than the goals he scores. Someone like Firmino is celebrated for making goals for Mane and Salah. Personally, I miss the old days and sometimes wish we would see a 4-4-2 more often...

RedSky said:

I think the opposite, there seems to be plenty of excellent strikers coming through. It's at centre back there's a massive hole of world class talent.

Click to expand...

Agree with this.

RashyForPM said:

He is a prime example. His main trait of being able to fly behind defenders in a flash (bar Tuanzebe ) and finish with aplomb makes me think he should be a striker. I suppose Ronaldo influencing him isn’t really to his detriment as he won the World Cup playing wide right, but he should be a striker imo.

Click to expand...

Yeah I feel like he could grow up a bit like the Brazilian Ronaldo but so far he has taken the C Ronaldo route due to tactics and the way the game has evolved in the last 10 years.

I mean even when we look at C Ronaldo at United - the guy started off as a RW trying to play balls in to Van Nistelrooy. That stopped the more Ronaldo moved to LW and the goals were coming from such positions to the point SAF/Queiroz felt that Van Nistelrooy and Ronaldo didnt match. Van nistelrooy became less needed and our central players turned on to players like Rooney & Tevez - able to play more than just in the box type of striker and were relatively energetic, creative and hard working.

I think it's because of the shift from specialists to players, who are really good all around.

If you're playing like a classical, one-dimensional striker from one of the past eras, you'll sit on the bench pretty soon.

In today's football you have to be intelligent (in terms of football intelligence), great in the link-up play, very good and active at pressing, a quick decision maker and good on the ball.

That's why we have a lot of worldclass "attacking-midfielders" or "winger-strikers" like Ronaldo, Messi, Mbappe, Neymar, Müller, Gnabry, Sané, Mané, Salah, Aubameyang etc., but not really that much "oldschool-strikers".

DomesticTadpole said:

According to Lukaku's agent he is the best striker in the world at present. So there's one for you.


10:59
Romelu Lukaku agent makes audacious claim after United transfer
Romelu Lukaku’s agent, Federico Pastorello, believes the Belgian is now the best striker in the world after he left United.

Click to expand...

What is his agent smoking? How can he claim something like that, when Lewandowski is currently producing Ronaldo/Messi numbers as a pure striker, while also being clearly a way more complete player.

Lukaku, Werner, Kane, Lewandowski, Haaland, Martial, Aubameyang, Firmino, Ronaldo, Griezmann. There are plenty of world class forwards and that is not including most wingers who often play up front.

Most of Utds best teams came with the goals spread around.

RashyForPM said:

Anyone else noticing this? Feels like one of those topics which goes under the radar.

At the moment, in terms of pure strikers, you can only consider Lewandowski and Kane as world class, and arguably Håland as his record is essentially a goal a game now. I still class Ronaldo as a winger. Going through the top strikers in the top leagues, aside from those three, you have Aguero, Suarez, Zlatan and Cavani who are declining, and players like Werner, Auba (does nothing when he isn’t scoring), Icardi and Lukaku who are in the top 10 strikers in the world. Even worse, Firmino is actually rated in this day and age. Spew that defensive striker nonsense back then and you’d be laughed at.

Just around two decades ago, you had R9, Romario, Shearer, Batistuta, Shevchenko, Henry, Bergkamp, Owen, Raul, Ruud, Kluivert, Crespo etc. At United alone, we had 4 world class strikers in Coley, Yorke, Ole and Teddy. Move on a few years and you have prime Aguero and Suarez, Drogba, Rooney, Tevez, Eto’o, Forlan, Klose, RvP etc. The supposed top strikers of today would not even have been allowed by the great goal getters of the past to lace their boots. I mean, Werner and Lukaku vs. Ruud and Henry!

Why has this come about? Well, essentially, managers love inside forwards now. All top clubs have wingers cutting in and getting goals. It’s practically a primary tactic now. To add to that, Ronaldo and Messi played those roles very often in their pomp. Why wouldn’t this have had an influence on people like Neymar, Mbappe, Sterling, Rashford, Son, Salah etc while they were teenagers aspiring to become world superstars like Ronaldo and Messi?

In short, world class strikers, please show yourselves again. There is still no better asset for football teams than a magnificent striker who gets 35 goals a season, as the greats of the past used to do. Hopefully Håland’s emergence sparks the beginning of the process.

Click to expand...

To be honest, most people only use single striker systems. In turn, most players who would have been strikers in the 90's and 2000's or inside forwards or attacking midfielders today. For example, if Del Piero, Bergkamp, even a player like Henry were in today's game, they would all be in different positions. In turn, what is required of a striker in today's game is more of an all arounder. A player who can head, hold up, move into channels and run behind the striker. So of course there are less world class strikers.

OleBoiii said:

Feck it, let's just summarize all the major changes since the turn of the century. Feel free to add the ones I missed:

1. Goalkeepers must be good with their feet now. They are also more protected, so they don't need to be as strong/mad as before.

2. CBs must be good at passing and comfortable in tight spaces. They also can't be as rough as before, as the game has gone softer(which is a good thing!). This leads to goals that would have the defenders of the past pull their hair out, but it's honestly inevitable at this stage.

3. Fullbacks went from being arguably the least important position to possibly one of the most important. Fullbacks have taken over the role of the winger, but is still expected to defend like before. It's a borderline impossible task, and thus there are very few fullbacks that don't receive regular, harsh criticism.

4. The central midfield position is a weird one. Ironically, things seem to move back to the days where midfielders were supposed to do everything well. Typical DMs and AMs still exist, but they are not as prevalent as they were 10 years ago. Seeing as the midfield is the most important area of the pitch, it makes sense that things change so rapidly there.

5. Wingers are now forwards, typically with a lot of creative freedom.

6. Center forwards generally need to be more versatile. In many cases it's hard to distinguish them from the wingers.

Click to expand...

TBH, defenders may not have been tasked to play the ball out as much, but they always had to be at least average with the ball at their feet. Before, there was more emphasis on physicality, particularly in defence. In addition, in midfield, I'd argue with the opposite, there are more specialists now than before. In a 442 of 2003, you would have players like Viera and Gilberto doing everything ranging from going up and down the pitch, getting the ball out of defence, getting the ball back, ball retention and supporting the attack. Today, you have more specialist players in midfield, and they receive much more support from the full backs and centre forwards than they did before.

Is this just another nostalgia thing like with CB's?

Lewa, Kane, Aguero and Benzema (there's a reason why he's kept his place in the Real side for 11 years) would all be up their with the best in previous years as would the prime versions of Suarez and Cavani. Looking at young one's Mbappe is already at that type of level and Haaland's not that far off.

neilv93 said:

I think you're being slightly harsh on Aguero (56 goals in last 80 since start of 18/19) and Suarez (49 in last 90 since start of 18/19) - great records given advancing years and increasing injuries. Also, Ronaldo is definitely a striker and has been for years.

But I do tend to agree - bar Lewa, Kane, Ronaldo and maybe Haaland as the obvious contenders, no one really jumps out. Mbappe still largely plays out wide, Dybala/Werner/Auba have good records for do tend to waver in and out of games a lot and despite a bit of a resurgence last year, I would consider Benzema tier two, as would be the likes of Firmino, Vardy, Griezmann.

I will say, though, that I think Inter's Lautaro Martinez will be the next one to stand out in this next generation we're beginning to head towards post-Messi/CR7.

Click to expand...

I think that's quite harsh on benzema. He's got 1 in 2 for real, with 250 goals. He also chips in with a lot of assists as well. That record would stand up to many strikers considered world class in the OP. He just suffers from not being ronaldo. For me though he has been fantastic for real. Over 20 goals in 8 of 11 seasons.

Gonçalo Motta said:

I feel like Ronaldo and Messi changed the way the game is played. As far as I remember most of the goals always came from strikers and most of the time was the wingers / attacking midfielders job to serve the goals to one or two strikers that would mainly play inside the box and/or on the edges of the box.

Although the concept of a winger playing as an inside forward wasn't exactly unknown, it wasn't really used that much until Ronaldo came and owned that role putting numbers way higher than 99% of the strikers.

Maybe it was just a coincidence that tactics evolved this way during the Ronaldo / Messi era but I got a feeling they impacted football way more than just the numbers they produced and the records they destroyed.

Tbf I think there's still great talent available but when you have 2 guys that produced godlike numbers for more than 1 decade it kind overshadows everyone else that doesn't reach a similar output. Put both of them in a era that you had peak Etoo, Drogba, Henry, Del Piero, Van Persie, Raul, Shevchenko, etc and everyone would still feel like there was a lack of world class strikers.

I think there's more of a shortage of proper playmakers than can dictate a game than strikers tbh.

Click to expand...

Part of it is that a lot more is required of DM's now than before and therefore they actually support playmaking responsibilities more than before. Therefore, you don't need Pirlo to dictate play as much, because his two other midfield partners share that responsibility too. That's why Kroos and Modric look less dominant, or Thiago seemed less important at Bayern.

arthurka said:

You could say that about center backs as well. There is just a lack of world class players ATM Ronaldo and Messi getting close to the retirement home no one is taking their mantle.

Click to expand...

I agree with this one. It's all fair and good saying its a more systematic game so they show less, but look at Van Dijk. He looks really dominant next to his compatriots. The same thing can be said for Ramos. For me, that's the one position that spending money on in the current market doesn't make sense. The players being described as good defenders like Koulibaly or Upemacano can be consistently caught floundering and are praised for doing the bare minimum. Even people touting the importance of on ball skills for a defender need to start watching older games from ten years ago. Even players like Vidic who were considered bad on the ball, were actually really good compare to most players at top clubs these days. Players like Nesta, Rio and Cannavaro could easily carry the ball as well as any modern day centre back.

It's the reason why a player like Umtiti can be called world class and fade out completely despite there not being any real difference in his performance. Varane is constantly called a stud, yet every time Ramos isn't there to babysit him, he's exposed. City have spend millions on defensive prospects and gotten nothing out of it, same with Chelsea, ourselves, Spurs and Arsenal. We are at the point where a team like Bayern is fine with using full backs at centre back and performance wise it makes very little difference.

Dancfc said:

Is this just another nostalgia thing like with CB's?

Lewa, Kane, Aguero and Benzema (there's a reason why he's kept his place in the Real side for 11 years) would all be up their with the best in previous years as would the prime versions of Suarez and Cavani. Looking at young one's Mbappe is already at that type of level and Haaland's not that far off.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it is.
Bigging up players of the past - check
Talking down players of the present - check
Casting a wide net for past generations and their player peaks, while splitting up present generations - check

RashyForPM said:

Just around two decades ago, you had R9, Romario, Shearer, Batistuta, Shevchenko, Henry, Bergkamp, Owen, Raul, Ruud, Kluivert, Crespo etc. At United alone, we had 4 world class strikers in Coley, Yorke, Ole and Teddy.

Click to expand...

You’re acting as if all those were in their primes at the same time which they weren’t. Also Yorke was United’s only world class striker back then and that was only for a short period. Cole, Solskjaer and Sheringham were very good but were never some of the best strikers in the world.

Nanook said:

You’re acting as if all those were in their primes at the same time which they weren’t. Also Yorke was United’s only world class striker back then and that was only for a short period. Cole, Solskjaer and Sheringham were very good but were never some of the best strikers in the world.

Click to expand...

can you even call Yorke world class? He has one great season, which he never got near again. He was brilliant that year, but personally don’t see how that’s enough to be classed as world class.

Josh 76 said:

3. AWB would have been the best full back in the world 30 years ago.

Click to expand...

Can't tell if this is a joke or not.

Stopped reading when someone said Smalling would have been considered world class 20-25 years ago

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:

can you even call Yorke world class? He has one great season, which he never got near again. He was brilliant that year, but personally don’t see how that’s enough to be classed as world class.

Click to expand...

He scored more league goals in 1999/00 than 98/99 tbf but yeah, if Yorke was ever world class it was for two seasons at best.
I found out the other day fecking Stern John had a way better goal scoring record than Yorke did for Trinidad.

Nanook said:

He scored more league goals in 1999/00 than 98/99 tbf but yeah, if Yorke was ever world class it was for two seasons at best.
I found out the other day fecking Stern John had a way better goal scoring record than Yorke did for Trinidad.

Click to expand...

He was always more of a number 10 than a number 9. Stern John was very much a goal poacher/target man whereas Yorke would 'drop into the hole' and look to link the midfield and attack.

In reply to the OP if your going to use Henry as an example whose best position was as a wide forward surely then mane/salah come into contention as current world class strikers in there peak? Throw Harry kane and aubameyang into the mix that's 4 just in the EPL.

I envy Spurs... in Kane, Son and mow Vinicius they have the best strike force in Premier League and if we include Bale, Moura, Lamela and Berwjin they have one if the best strike force in world football right now.

Tactical trends proliferate far wider and stay around longer over the past 15 or so years as football becomes globalised. So much easily accessible info now that anyone can dig through the history of football tactics, find what worked and use it, plus what the big teams are successful with sticks around now with far greater reach. Not as many prolific centre forwards is a natural product of long last trend in moving away from 2 up front.

Something current like the wide forward line players in a 4-3-3 taking on a lot of the goalscoring (or having one or both of the front 2 play like a wide forward, with a Breitner or such charging up to score from deep) was very successful in the second half of the 70s with players like Rep, Rensenbrink, Blokhin, Rummenigge, Simonsen, but with things not being globalised it didn't spread too widely.

Then you have something like the dominant brazilian fullback school for the past 40-50 years or so, which was that both fullbacks needed to be very capable at attacking, very skilled on the ball and provide a lot of the width. It was influential but likewise didn't become a standard in most countries.

Pressing schemes, another thing that's been around for ages, but arguably only went "global" and seen as a necessity in the last couple decades too, despite having a smaller consistent influence for decades before that due to especially Netherlands and lobanovsky influence.

A lot of the more exaggerated comments i see on here about how things have changed tactically seem to come from a very british point of view though, some of the stuff about defenders being good on the ball only coming about recently, attacking fullbacks as something recent or important etc.. However for all their strengths as football countries, tactical versatility was not one of them, in england you're talking about a country that had become so stuck in its ways tactically a lot of people thought Makelele had created a new footballing role as recent as the early 00s.

Yeah, Lewandovski is killing from the left side and Haaland from the right. There is so many good strikers around world... Our problem is that we did not have one after RVP and that is what killing our perception of strikers (right winger, fullback, dm)
People are deluded if they think players like Lewa, Benz, Ibra etc etc would die out.
Lukaku would be our best striker if he still was here.
Sorry for my english.

Lukaku would have been regarded much higher in those early/mid 00s times

Just sayin'

Paul_Scholes18 said:

Lukaku, Werner, Kane, Lewandowski, Haaland, Martial, Aubameyang, Firmino, Ronaldo, Griezmann. There are plenty of world class forwards and that is not including most wingers who often play up front.

Click to expand...

Could u pm me what shit are u smoking?
Firmino has 28 goals in 100 matches for Liverpool (2018-19 and 2019-20 season)
Griezmann has been absolute wank for Barca 36 goals in 96 matches.
Both of them with zero goals this season (Firmino 7 matches, Griezmann 4)

Paul_Scholes18 said:

Lukaku, Werner, Kane, Lewandowski, Haaland, Martial, Aubameyang, Firmino, Ronaldo, Griezmann. There are plenty of world class forwards and that is not including most wingers who often play up front.

Click to expand...

Half of that list are not world class at all.

GifLord said:

Could u pm me what shit are u smoking?
Firmino has 28 goals in 100 matches for Liverpool (2018-19 and 2019-20 season)
Griezmann has been absolute wank for Barca 36 goals in 96 matches.
Both of them with zero goals this season (Firmino 7 matches, Griezmann 4)

Click to expand...

Werner isn't even close to world-class either.

GifLord said:

Could u pm me what shit are u smoking?
Firmino has 28 goals in 100 matches for Liverpool (2018-19 and 2019-20 season)
Griezmann has been absolute wank for Barca 36 goals in 96 matches.
Both of them with zero goals this season (Firmino 7 matches, Griezmann 4)

Click to expand...

Firmino is key for the way Liverpool play. He has performed for a world class team many seasons in a row.
Griezmann maybe not that great for Barcelona, but a world class player before that. I don't think he has lost it all.

It's just a difference of tactics between eras.

For example if Ronaldo Nazario played today, he would play in Cristiano's position. He was always playing more left and with space to run into, and a lot of times went into the wings to receive sideways.

Another similar player was Marcio Amoroso, would probably be a #10 today or winger.

giorno said:

Lukaku would have been regarded much higher in those early/mid 00s times

Just sayin'

Click to expand...

he really wouldn’t, would be the exact opposite.

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:

he really wouldn’t, would be the exact opposite.

Click to expand...

He is scoring at a higher rate than most big strikers then.
I think people compare now with prime Ronaldo, Messi and Lewandowski so most other strikers look poor in comparison.