Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
Actually thought he had a decent 20 in the second half when he was starting to knit some moves together for Chelsea, then subbed. Going to be one of those players were there is a constant debate over his best role.
His best role is in any team other than one managed by Lampard
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
Even prime Hazard drifted in games when we played these type of tactics.

If he plays like this in games we actually play attacking football I'd be worried.
I agree with this. I thought Chelsea were so pragmatic, that doesn't suit his game and won't help his confidence which doesn't look great.
Will you ever okay attacking football again?
I mean, Lampard seems to be obsessed with clean sheets all of a sudden.
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
50,138
Location
Chelsea (the saviours of football) fan.
I agree with this. I thought Chelsea were so pragmatic, that doesn't suit his game and won't help his confidence which doesn't look great.
Will you ever okay attacking football again?
I mean, Lampard seems to be obsessed with clean sheets all of a sudden.
We've scored 10 in the 3 prem games before tonight.

There's plenty of things to criticise Lampard about, lack of attacking football is a really strange one.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,392
Supports
Chelsea
I agree with this. I thought Chelsea were so pragmatic, that doesn't suit his game and won't help his confidence which doesn't look great.
Will you ever okay attacking football again?
I mean, Lampard seems to be obsessed with clean sheets all of a sudden.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt with Sevilla and United given our need for clean sheets, but with the games we have coming up if we still have no idea going forward questions need to be asked.
 

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
57,585
Location
Canada
I think Müller is a good comparison, he needs to play as a #9.5 in a possession heavy team. His biggest qualities are probably his spacial awareness and technical proficiency in tight spaces. He can act as a conduit between the lines during build up and then arrive later in the box as a goal scoring threat. Chelsea under Lampard just don't appear to be that team, but if Bayern were in need of a Müller replacement he'd probably slot right in.
Yeah, strikes me as someone who needs a perfect well drilled system to suit him. Muller in a team like United the last 7 years would've struggled a lot IMO, but Havertz on top of that just isn't very hard working, unlike Muller. Chelsea with Lampard of course isn't a well coached side, so he'll struggle more, but I just don't see it really. The hype he has is insane when its not really backed up by a specific quality.
 

Gringo

Full Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2019
Messages
3,396
Supports
Portugal
We've scored 10 in the 3 prem games before tonight.

There's plenty of things to criticise Lampard about, lack of attacking football is a really strange one.
Very bizarre stuff going around. Chelsea ship goes for fun, people have a go. Go back to a more pragmatic approach, TOO DEFENSIVE!!
 

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
57,585
Location
Canada
Ive been saying for mulitple weeks now that both him and Werner are average. He is just a good footballer but nothing else. Doesnt spectacular in anything.

I feel his future role is a shadow striker because of his height and good finshing.
His current role is a shadow striker! Similar to Dele Alli maybe too, where people kept calling him a midfielder even though he was shit in midfield.

Disagree on Werner, he's an excellent poacher and will always score goals and was a bargain at that price. Lampard won't get the best out of him, but hes a good signing. Havertz is whatever, strikes no fear into opposition him being on the pitch and doesn't have any quality that you can see him turning into someone who can do that. Not what you want out of a 80-100m player!
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
5,816
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
Will take him some time to get used to the new team and new tactics, but once he will he'll be a quality player. Should get 20+ goals+assists a season. He's also improved for Germany, for whom he also had a slow start.

Chelsea have an entirely new offense, won't begin to click immediately.
 

KennyBurner

New Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
4,673
Location
ATL
His current role is a shadow striker! Similar to Dele Alli maybe too, where people kept calling him a midfielder even though he was shit in midfield.

Disagree on Werner, he's an excellent poacher and will always score goals and was a bargain at that price. Lampard won't get the best out of him, but hes a good signing. Havertz is whatever, strikes no fear into opposition him being on the pitch and doesn't have any quality that you can see him turning into someone who can do that. Not what you want out of a 80-100m player!
Chelsea did not buy Werner for is poaching skills. Ive also never seen a poacher that loves to drift out wide when its team is building an attack in the opposition box. he hardly stays central like a true poacher.
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
We've scored 10 in the 3 prem games before tonight.

There's plenty of things to criticise Lampard about, lack of attacking football is a really strange one.
Two games in a row with no goals, one team of whom has let in a huge amount of goals.
Not that strange.
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
33,745
I compared him to a German Dele Alli (back when Alli was actually good) and a few cried me out of a thread. The more I see of him the more I see it. He’s not some insightful passer nor is he a flawless dribbler — he is a physically strong no.10 who is surprisingly impressive in the air with decent technical ability to match.
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt with Sevilla and United given our need for clean sheets, but with the games we have coming up if we still have no idea going forward questions need to be asked.
Yeah, that's a fair point.

Would you be happy playing the same way you did today against every big six side?
Do you think it highlights your weakness?
 

ThierryHenry

wishes he could watch Arsenal games with KM
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
13,540
Location
London Town
I compared him to a German Dele Alli (back when Alli was actually good) and a few cried me out of a thread. The more I see of him the more I see it. He’s not some insightful passer nor is he a flawless dribbler — he is a physically strong no.10 who is surprisingly impressive in the air with decent technical ability to match.
Looks a good comparison to me.
 

GameOn

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
443
Muller in a team like United the last 7 years would've struggled a lot IMO, but Havertz on top of that just isn't very hard working, unlike Muller.
That's what most fans don't get: Even when Müller occasionally has a rather poor game with the ball, you'll always get a world-class working rate and game without the ball (pressing, creating space for others etc.) from him.

Havertz just isn't that kind of player. Nobody will ever mistake him for the hardest worker on the pitch. He's much closer to Özil than Müller in that regard.
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
50,138
Location
Chelsea (the saviours of football) fan.
Two games in a row with no goals, one team of whom has let in a huge amount of goals.
Not that strange.
2 draws, away to Manchester United and also in the Champions League against a very good Sevilla side (who beat you lot 2 months ago). It's far too early to be even remotely concerned about a lack of goals.
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
33,745
Looks a good comparison to me.
Numbers are very similar too. Up until 21/22, Alli was getting sort of 10+ goals and 5+ assists a few times in the league. Havertz was averaging similar in his final seasons at Leverkusen.
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
2 draws, away to Manchester United and also in the Champions League against a very good Sevilla side (who beat you lot 2 months ago). It's far too early to be even remotely concerned about a lack of goals.
I think your missing what I'm saying here.
The press, fans etc were questioning Lampards tactics and ability to get a clean sheet.
Two games later you have two clean sheets but zero goals, despite the attacking talent you've played.
Knee jerk? Possibly, but to me it highlights Chelsea's weakness, they have to reduce the attacking threat to solidify the defensive unit.
Lampard has to find the middle ground quickly.
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
50,138
Location
Chelsea (the saviours of football) fan.
I think your missing what I'm saying here.
The press, fans etc were questioning Lampards tactics and ability to get a clean sheet.
Two games later you have two clean sheets but zero goals, despite the attacking talent you've played.
Knee jerk? Possibly, but to me it highlights Chelsea's weakness, they have to reduce the attacking threat to solidify the defensive unit.
Lampard has to find the middle ground quickly.
Pretty much every side ever has had to reduce their attacking threat to solidify the defensive unit (and vice versa) you make it sound like it's something unique to Lampard at Chelsea.

Has he gone too far into the defensive? 2 games is nowhere near enough of a sample size to make any sort of reasonable judgement.
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
11,862
Has he been deployed as a false 9 yet? Didnt pay attention to Chelsea players much todays game because they weren't in a freedom as usual.

This the position I thought he would be good at.
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
Pretty much every side ever has had to reduce their attacking threat to solidify the defensive unit (and vice versa) you make it sound like it's something unique to Lampard at Chelsea.

Has he gone too far into the defensive? 2 games is nowhere near enough of a sample size to make any sort of reasonable judgement.
Wow,
I'm sorry but when you've spent £100m plus in attacking talent and have it on display, you'd expect a bit more from an attacking point of view, would you not agree?
Are you seriously telling me that had you gone at a defence that conceded 6 at home a few weeks back, you'd wouldn't have scored?

It appears to me right now that Lampard cannot find a middle ground of attacking and defending, it's one or the other.
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
50,138
Location
Chelsea (the saviours of football) fan.
Wow,
I'm sorry but when you've spent £100m plus in attacking talent and have it on display, you'd expect a bit more from an attacking point of view, would you not agree?
Are you seriously telling me that had you gone at a defence that conceded 6 at home a few weeks back, you'd wouldn't have scored?

It appears to me right now that Lampard cannot find a middle ground of attacking and defending, it's one or the other.
Apology accepted.
 

Wayne's World

Full Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
9,259
Location
Ireland
He's a fantastic footballer who has a manager that right now is making brilliant players look very very average
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
7,984
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
I compared him to a German Dele Alli (back when Alli was actually good) and a few cried me out of a thread. The more I see of him the more I see it. He’s not some insightful passer nor is he a flawless dribbler — he is a physically strong no.10 who is surprisingly impressive in the air with decent technical ability to match.
Having seen 100+ matches of Havertz, that's about the worst description of him I've read, IMO.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,392
Supports
Chelsea
Yeah, that's a fair point.

Would you be happy playing the same way you did today against every big six side?
Do you think it highlights your weakness?
If we set up like this then no, there's only so much you can expect of any attacking player in such a set up.

If we set up in a way to suit his strengths and he still had a stinker then I'd question him, so for example, had he started in the same fixture last season (which tactically would have been ideal for him).
 

MrEleson

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
2,524
I never felt he was anything special even in the few games I saw of him at Leverkusen. He just seemed to score a bunch of goals post-lockdown and voila...he was suddenly worth €80M. Inexplicable really.
 

sport2793

Full Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2012
Messages
3,161
Location
USA
Pretty poor timing given Bruno was every shade of shite himself today.

He looks pretty knackered, surely he gets a rest vs either Arsenal or Leipzig? Makes no sense overplaying him when you have a player like Van De Beek (who i was very relieved didn't come on) to can step in.
Let's be honest though, Bruno is a tier above Havertz overall at this moment in time and can hurt the opposition from any part of the pitch with passing or shooting. That's not something to be mad about as Havertz is considerably younger and will grow into his role so the investment you made should be seen as a long term one.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
95,336
Location
india
Top early to to conclude but I don't see the supposed elite talent in him. He does look like be could be a good all round player who does everything fairly well. But he doesn't appear to be anyone near the type of talent someone like Sancho is, for example, who I mention only because there have been some comparisons.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,515
Top early to to conclude but I don't see the supposed elite talent in him. He does look like be could be a good all round player who does everything fairly well. But he doesn't appear to be anyone near the type of talent someone like Sancho is, for example, who I mention only because there have been some comparisons.
He looks more like a system player, when everything falls in place he might be a better/elevate the team.

Going by their Chelsea games, Pulisic showed much higher level than Havertz and Werner.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,392
Supports
Chelsea
Top early to to conclude but I don't see the supposed elite talent in him. He does look like be could be a good all round player who does everything fairly well. But he doesn't appear to be anyone near the type of talent someone like Sancho is, for example, who I mention only because there have been some comparisons.
Apart from two people on here (previous Havertz thread) attempting to force comparisons i haven't seen it anywhere, they play in different positions for a start, if people want to force a Sancho comparison with a Chelsea player the appropriate pick is Ziyech.

Let's be honest though, Bruno is a tier above Havertz overall at this moment in time and can hurt the opposition from any part of the pitch with passing or shooting. That's not something to be mad about as Havertz is considerably younger and will grow into his role so the investment you made should be seen as a long term one.
I'm not arguing that, more making the point that negative tactics also contributed to his reduced infulence (plus him likely being overplayed a bit). We could have had prime Hazard today while you lot had prime Rooney and both would have been drifting in and out of the match at best.