Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

Sack or Keep OLE?

  • Sack Ole & appoint new coach ASAP

  • Keep Ole & back him to finish rebuild


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romufc

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From today's press conference:



This is our issue...no actual system, no ethos for how we play. Just 'go out and express yourself and we'll see what happens', which worked under Fergie, with top class, highly intelligent players and coaching.
Whats wrong with managers wanting players to express themselves? You do realise players can express themselves and play in a system?

The problem with fans is that if he lets players express there is issues, when he puts a system playing Pogba in a pivot "Let Pogba play 10"

Cannot win.
 

JohnnyKills

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The next three league games look crucial. Southampton, West Ham and City will all really test us. Can see this being make-or-break time for OGS.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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From today's press conference:



This is our issue...no actual system, no ethos for how we play. Just 'go out and express yourself and we'll see what happens', which worked under Fergie, with top class, highly intelligent players and coaching.
I'm going to take another shade at Ole and say one reason for our inconsistency is because our style of play is inconsistent. I honestly don't know what style of play to expect to see when we play Istanbul and then Southampton. Are we going to counter attack? Lethargic build up play? Or Quick transitions? I don't know.



Could also be the reason we don't start most games with any urgency because we don't have a consistent style of play we follow in most games and so waiting to see how the opponent plays before knowing whether to take risks
I actually said something similar yesterday based on what I've observed on the pitch
 

FatherWolff

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Whats wrong with managers wanting players to express themselves? You do realise players can express themselves and play in a system?

The problem with fans is that if he lets players express there is issues, when he puts a system playing Pogba in a pivot "Let Pogba play 10"

Cannot win.
I think they missed the obvious word. “One” I don’t know a single top team who has one style of play. And most of them set their best players up to express their talent. Also, most of them have a game plan and detailed instructions. Don’t know how people think they just put their bots on and go out and play.
 

NJM78

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That's fair enough. Lets see where we are by year end. These are our league fixtures up to then:

Southampton (a)
West Ham (a)
City (h)
Sheff Utd (a)
Leeds (h)
Leicester (a)
Wolves (h)

If we can get out of our CL group and get a decent points haul out of that lot then we'll be in good shape going forwards
I reckon we will get 12 points from those 21.
3 wins 3 draws and a loss. We are just so inconsistent and if I'm right we will be on 25 points from 45 which is pretty shite.

We bugger up this CL group from here he will surely lose his job.
 

Flexdegea

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I reckon we will get 12 points from those 21.
3 wins 3 draws and a loss. We are just so inconsistent and if I'm right we will be on 25 points from 45 which is pretty shite.

We bugger up this CL group from here he will surely lose his job.


Very positive outlook.


Already giving up on champs league
 

NJM78

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Very positive outlook.


Already giving up on champs league
Not really but I would not be at all surprised if PSG beat us at OT and Leipzig give us a much tougher game at their ground. Tomorrow night is a must win in my opinion.
 

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Whats wrong with managers wanting players to express themselves? You do realise players can express themselves and play in a system?

The problem with fans is that if he lets players express there is issues, when he puts a system playing Pogba in a pivot "Let Pogba play 10"

Cannot win.
No problem. But there's a big difference between allowing the players freedom to express themselves within a structure designed to provide them with proper service, and the free for all chaos that is served up under Ole.

What happens when ''just go out and express yourselves'' isn't working for the players anymore''? Managers are meant to come up with solutions to help them aren't they?
 
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romufc

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No problem. But there's a big difference between allowing the players freedom to express themselves within a structure designed to provide them with proper service, and the free for all chaos that is served up under Ole.

What happens when ''just go out and express yourselves'' isn't working for the players anymore''? Managers are meant to come up with solutions to help them aren't they?
So there is a difference with no tactics to tactics that are not good enough. Saying all he does is tell them to express themselves is stupid because no manager would be in a job if they did that.

Ofcourse he sets up teams and tries for solutions, unfortunately his methods are not good enough at times.
 

Lee565

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Can the pro ole guys not see that we are light years away from liverpool in terms of coaching, klopp can handle a bunch of injuries to his most important players and still keep winning and winning, when ole has a few injuries it's excuse after excuse and even with a full strength side he is struggling in all honesty we are never touching any major title with his ole's coaching skills. Maybe the fans have given up and just happy now with us battling to try and squeeze into a champions league place every season from now on.
 

90 + 5min

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Can the pro ole guys not see that we are light years away from liverpool in terms of coaching, klopp can handle a bunch of injuries to his most important players and still keep winning and winning, when ole has a few injuries it's excuse after excuse and even with a full strength side he is struggling in all honesty we are never touching any major title with his ole's coaching skills. Maybe the fans have given up and just happy now with us battling to try and squeeze into a champions league place every season from now on.
What excuse did Klopp have first 3-4 years for not winning anything?
 

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The fans who travel to away games would rather fall off a cliff with a manager than ever show any signs of disrespect.

Admirable to some people. But it's counter-intuitive at times. They are the ones paying big money to travel all around the country and abroad. They have a right to voice concerns when it's warranted. They don't have to wave white flags or handkerchiefs. But being a robot on one setting doesn't make them any better than people with opinions that aren't as black and white as manager in or manager out. You can support Ole while recognising his flaws, and can dislike Ole while giving him credit when he does something good.

I don't like Ole the manager. At all. But I have been just as vocal about all of our other managers when they have done wrong or made mistakes. Fans generally want what's best for the club. I couldn't care less about bragging rights over Liverpool fans. I wasn't smug when we were successful, and I won't be smug when we are again. People want to see a reasonable style of play with some consistency between performances. Not the extremes we have seen under Ole. Our bad is as bad as anyone's, while our best can be very intricate stuff at times. But you will rarely see us dominate for 60-70 minutes in a game. That's where most of the frustration comes from. It's coming up to 2 years now. We should be more consistent than what we are.
On the bolded, do you not think the mere fact Ole is capable of making us tick (as he's shown, sometimes for long periods of form) that this in itself is half the battle and that if said manager can produce that level then the next step of consistency should logically follow as we naturally progress?

Like you say, it's 2 years now, but LVG and Mourinho were asking for 3 years weren't they? If a top level manager deems that the period of time required to implement what's required then the fear is we take the opportunity away from Ole to take that next step and we start the whole process all over again.

I guess for a lot of Ole-In posters, at least speaking for myself, the positives we have seen (albeit missing the consistency) coupled with the risk of changing and starting the whole process again is enough to stick with Ole for the time being. At least until the point at which we don't secure top 4 or things go disastrously downhill from here.

Granted it's wishful thinking that Ole can provide that consistency however wanting a new manager to come in and improve on what we've seen over the past 7 years required every bit as much wishful thinking as well.
 

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So there is a difference with no tactics to tactics that are not good enough. Saying all he does is tell them to express themselves is stupid because no manager would be in a job if they did that.

Ofcourse he sets up teams and tries for solutions, unfortunately his methods are not good enough at times.
Yeah you would think it's stupid but that's what it looks like to me. It's probably just pure incompetent coaching like you say. He wants the players to be able to score all kinds of goals but how is he going to make that happen consistently? He can tell the fans what they want to hear, but it's his job to actually make it happen in reality.

Whenever we have the ball, 99% of the time we look like a team devoid of any purpose or strategy. We labour on it, passing it side to side, mostly everyone ball watching, until it somehow falls to Bruno then he tries to create something out of thin air. That's what I see every week. For e.g. with LVG, we could easily identify his plan on the pitch. The players were visibly drilled, and you could tell they were carrying out his instructions. With Ole even after two years, I still haven't got any idea whatsoever he's trying to do in attack.
 
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Flexdegea

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Can the pro ole guys not see that we are light years away from liverpool in terms of coaching, klopp can handle a bunch of injuries to his most important players and still keep winning and winning, when ole has a few injuries it's excuse after excuse and even with a full strength side he is struggling in all honesty we are never touching any major title with his ole's coaching skills. Maybe the fans have given up and just happy now with us battling to try and squeeze into a champions league place every season from now on.

I've seen Ole organise some big results as well with lot of injury issues.


It's also quite clear liverpool are way ahead of us at the moment.


Find it strange you sound defeated this early into a season.
 

Leftback99

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Can the pro ole guys not see that we are light years away from liverpool in terms of coaching, klopp can handle a bunch of injuries to his most important players and still keep winning and winning, when ole has a few injuries it's excuse after excuse and even with a full strength side he is struggling in all honesty we are never touching any major title with his ole's coaching skills. Maybe the fans have given up and just happy now with us battling to try and squeeze into a champions league place every season from now on.
What's your answer then? Hire someone like Poch who was also no where near Liverpool with a high quality Spurs squad?
 

90 + 5min

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https://genius.com/Liverpool-fc-2015-16-liverpool-fc-squad-annotated

That's obviously a much worse squad than what Ole has right now and I don't see Ole challenging four years from now, let alone two years from now... Would you agree that Klopp had a much bigger overhaul to do than Ole?
Was it? If I can recall, they were one slip from title 2 years earlier and full with internationals.

While Solskjaer took over unbalanced, demoralized group of players.

This is not saying against Klopp. It shows that it takes time to built something that will work in a great way.
 

romufc

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Yeah you would think it's stupid but that's what it looks like to me. He wants the players to be able to score all kinds of goals but how is he going to make that happen consistently? He can tell the fans what they want to hear, but it's his job to actually make it happen in reality.

Whenever we have the ball, 99% of the time we look like a team devoid of any purpose or strategy. We labour on it, passing it side to side, mostly everyone ball watching, until it somehow falls to Bruno then he tries to create something out of thin air. For e.g. with LVG, we could easily see his plan on the pitch. The players were visibly drilled, and you could tell they were carrying out his instructions. With Ole even after two years, I still haven't got any idea whatsoever he's tying to do in attack.
I agree with everything you are saying. 2 years with no sort of method is not right. Who is to blame though? When was the last time a manager resigned because they cannot get the team playing well?

It is up to the hierarchy to make this decision, it shouldnt take 2 years and a run of bad results to realise this?

Let me give you examples:-

Rodgers - a better man was available, LFC sacked him and appointed Klopp
Chelsea - when they do not like the type of football, the manager is gone.

Ole is the manager, ofcourse he will think he can do the job, he has confidence in himself to succeed, he wouldn't say, No this job is too big for me. So why blame the manager? The board is to blame not the manager.
 

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I've seen Ole organise some big results as well with lot of injury issues.


It's also quite clear liverpool are way ahead of us at the moment.


Find it strange you sound defeated this early into a season.
The Liverpool squad man for man is not 'quite clearly way ahead of us'. It's what the respective managers manage to get out of them that separates us. The difference between Klopp and Ole as managers is incomparable, which is why they are so far ahead. Give us Klopp and them Ole, and they would be saying the exact same things about us.
 

Flexdegea

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The Liverpool squad man for man is not 'quite clearly way ahead of us'. It's what the respective managers manage to get out of them that separates us. The difference between Klopp and Ole as managers is incomparable, which is why they are so far ahead. Give us Klopp and them Ole, and they would be saying the exact same things about us.

Their squad is superior.

Klopp also a better coach.


But let's not pretend Klopp completely dominated since he has been there. Hes has to rebuild to get to where he is. Most of his signing have been top quality.


We are literally trying to get close to them, difference is most signing we try to make we have to pay record fees or United tax on them.


As I say Klopp first 2 seasons wasnt unbelievable, while he was rebuilding. Actually they struggled a fair bit, especially at the back. Van dyk was a monster signing for them.



Also no sure why we have to keep comparing the managers. It's not like Klopp quality is just sitting about to slot in for a new manager spot. They arent exactly growing on trees and any new manager is a massive risk in my eyes.



I have faith in the Ole rebuild, and I think he can get us closer to where we need to be, which to be honest he already has done. He took over a total shambles.
 

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I agree with everything you are saying. 2 years with no sort of method is not right. Who is to blame though? When was the last time a manager resigned because they cannot get the team playing well?

It is up to the hierarchy to make this decision, it shouldnt take 2 years and a run of bad results to realise this?

Let me give you examples:-

Rodgers - a better man was available, LFC sacked him and appointed Klopp
Chelsea - when they do not like the type of football, the manager is gone.

Ole is the manager, ofcourse he will think he can do the job, he has confidence in himself to succeed, he wouldn't say, No this job is too big for me. So why blame the manager? The board is to blame not the manager.
The buck stops with the owners and board as they are the ones who have allowed the rot to set in, dragging us into this mess in the first place. That's the thing I don't expect Ole to resign, as he will never be at this level again once he leaves. The problem is, Ole is very good for the owners. He's like a lightning conductor, shielding them from any criticism. It's about what can we change realistically? We can't sack the board, but a top manager can still succeed despite them. The Liverpool fans were protesting against their owners too, until Klopp arrived.
 

Bilbo

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I agree with everything you are saying. 2 years with no sort of method is not right. Who is to blame though? When was the last time a manager resigned because they cannot get the team playing well?

It is up to the hierarchy to make this decision, it shouldnt take 2 years and a run of bad results to realise this?

Let me give you examples:-

Rodgers - a better man was available, LFC sacked him and appointed Klopp
Chelsea - when they do not like the type of football, the manager is gone.

Ole is the manager, ofcourse he will think he can do the job, he has confidence in himself to succeed, he wouldn't say, No this job is too big for me. So why blame the manager? The board is to blame not the manager.
So here's the big question.

Firstly, lets avoid all the guff that people have written about Ole being a good PR man or some sort of criticism deflector for the board because that's clearly ridiculous. Assuming that the board are committed to making United the best football team we can be (which they surely are) why haven't they sacked him?
 

romufc

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The buck stops with the owners and board as they are the ones who have allowed the rot to set in, dragging us into this mess in the first place. That's the thing I don't expect Ole to resign, as he will never be at this level again once he leaves. The problem is, Ole is very good for the owners. He's like a lightning conductor, shielding them from any criticism. It's about what can we change realistically? We can't sack the board, but a top manager can still succeed despite them. The Liverpool fans were protesting against their owners too, until Klopp arrived.
Agreed, but Liverpool after finishing 2nd realised that a better man is available for the job and made the change.

Liverpool had a footballing person at the top too to understand this, unfortunately for us we do not have that and the only time we will make a change is when things get so bad that we need a rebuild.

Rather than making a change from a position of relative strength.

e.g. making the change now means players will still have confidence, players are not aged / deadwood.

If we wait when we are out of the UCL, 15th in the league after 25 games, confidence will be all time low and new manager has a tougher task, then we give him a year to sort our the team and same issues.
 

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Their squad is superior.

Klopp also a better coach.


But let's not pretend Klopp completely dominated since he has been there. Hes has to rebuild to get to where he is. Most of his signing have been top quality.


We are literally trying to get close to them, difference is most signing we try to make we have to pay record fees or United tax on them.


As I say Klopp first 2 seasons wasnt unbelievable, while he was rebuilding. Actually they struggled a fair bit, especially at the back. Van dyk was a monster signing for them.



Also no sure why we have to keep comparing the managers. It's not like Klopp quality is just sitting about to slot in for a new manager spot. They arent exactly growing on trees and any new manager is a massive risk in my eyes.



I have faith in the Ole rebuild, and I think he can get us closer to where we need to be, which to be honest he already has done. He took over a total shambles.
It's just perceived that way because of the level of managers. The point is, a top coach with this squad would get us competing with Liverpool/City. It's likely that Ole has reached his limit with us, and that we're unlikely to improve any further under him. Unless you think playing for top 4 is our future ambitions... I don't buy the argument that just because the next manager might not be on the level of Klopp/Guardiola, that means we give up even trying to compete at all.
 

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It's just perceived that way because of the level of managers. The point is, a top coach with this squad would get us competing with Liverpool/City. It's likely that Ole has reached his limit with us, and that we're unlikely to improve any further under him. Unless you think playing for top 4 is our future ambitions... I don't buy the argument that just because the next manager might not be on the level of Klopp/Guardiola, that means we give up even trying to compete at all.
True klopp needs time and money.

But the same amount of money and time neted them their biggest point tally, a cl cup and the league. The same amount of money and time netter us 13 pts in 8 games.
 

romufc

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So here's the big question.

Firstly, lets avoid all the guff that people have written about Ole being a good PR man or some sort of criticism deflector for the board because that's clearly ridiculous. Assuming that the board are committed to making United the best football team we can be (which they surely are) why haven't they sacked him?
Exactly my point. The board are not committed to making United the best team, there is 0 evidence of that.

Have we upgraded our stadium to be one of the best ? - No, instead we let it rot.
Have we sent signals that we want to be the best team by signing the players? No, we instead sign average for high prices, there is a difference.
Have we got a plan? No, which is why we signed 4 players on deadline day when we had 7 months to plan.
Is there a plan for the existing squad? No, because Jones, Rojo, Romero are still here and they don't know what to do with Pogba

Have we moved with the times? No, we have a manager that says "when SAF was boss", that was 8 years ago, the tactics he and Phelan are using is dated for 2012, we could see it at the end of Fergies reign too.

We havent hired a DoF, again shows lack of ambition to modernise.
Have we got the best manager available right now? No.
 

romufc

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True klopp needs time and money.

But the same amount of money and time neted them their biggest point tally, a cl cup and the league. The same amount of money and time netter us 13 pts in 8 games.
Klopp took over a mediocre group at Liverpool.

No manager who comes into United should need 3 seasons to mount a title challenge considering the quality of players we have at our disposal.

We have got players like Martial, Bruno, Telles, Donny, Greenwood, Rashford, Pogba who if coached well would walk into any football team.
 

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Agreed, but Liverpool after finishing 2nd realised that a better man is available for the job and made the change.

Liverpool had a footballing person at the top too to understand this, unfortunately for us we do not have that and the only time we will make a change is when things get so bad that we need a rebuild.

Rather than making a change from a position of relative strength.

e.g. making the change now means players will still have confidence, players are not aged / deadwood.

If we wait when we are out of the UCL, 15th in the league after 25 games, confidence will be all time low and new manager has a tougher task, then we give him a year to sort our the team and same issues.
That's what's so frustrating to me. Last season showed we have an exciting group of young players. Martial/Rashford/Greenwood were rivalling any attacking group in Europe, with many years to grow together. We had AWB pocketing Sterling, Shaw likewise. The worst thing in the world would be to see them stagnate and never reach their potential due to poor management.
 

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True klopp needs time and money.

But the same amount of money and time neted them their biggest point tally, a cl cup and the league. The same amount of money and time netter us 13 pts in 8 games.
It's honestly unreal how much this squad gets downplayed due to the manager in charge. Imagine telling that to Bayern fans living under Kovac.
 

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It's just perceived that way because of the level of managers. The point is, a top coach with this squad would get us competing with Liverpool/City. It's likely that Ole has reached his limit with us, and that we're unlikely to improve any further under him. Unless you think playing for top 4 is our future ambitions... I don't buy the argument that just because the next manager might not be on the level of Klopp/Guardiola, that means we give up even trying to compete at all.

Given up what tho?


We are in a rebuild, building towards progressing up the table and competing as you say. We achieved that goal last season.

We are already competing against City. Liverpool have been miles out ahead for 2 seasons. Very early in the season, as it stands we actually are competing as we are very close to the action. Not sure why everyone has set the current league positions in some sort of cement.


You just dont think we are competing because you've wrote the manager off completely.


Come back to this in December/January time and we see what we are like.

No magic button just push and we are back getting 90+ points in the league. Everything is a gamble. I'm also not even sure why everyone getting on like the manager a game away from being sacked. Onky reason I can think off is because Poch is sitting free. He is certainly not the answer.
 

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Given up what tho?

We are in a rebuild, building towards progressing up the table and competing as you say. We achieved that goal last season.

We are already competing against City. Liverpool have been miles out ahead for 2 seasons. Very early in the season, as it stands we actually are competing as we are very close to the action. Not sure why everyone has set the current league positions in some sort of cement.

You just dont think we are competing because you've wrote the manager off completely.

Come back to this in December/January time and we see what we are like.

No magic button just push and we are back getting 90+ points in the league. Everything is a gamble. I'm also not even sure why everyone getting on like the manager a game away from being sacked. Onky reason I can think off is because Poch is sitting free. He is certainly not the answer.
The forever rebuilding talk is an excuse to justify incompetence. And you've fallen for it.

Yes I have written him off. LVG lasted 103 matches, Jose 144. After 2 years and 100+ matches now in charge himself, we're supposed to be seeing more beyond steadying the ship. We're supposed to be seeing the results of the managers work by now. He's been backed and has a competitive squad. This was the season where there's no more excuses for Ole.

Yet you suggest he should get a free pass until December/January?
 

OleBoiii

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This was the season where there's no more excuses for Ole. Yet you suggest he should get a free pass until December/January?
How about until he has failed at the very least? We're 5 points off top 4 with a game in hand. And we started the season under worse circumstances(in terms of fitness) than every team bar City, who also are behind us.

I'm all for sacking managers who don't deliver after a certain amount of time, but Ole did well enough in his first full season and it's only been 8 games in this one.
 

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Yes I have written him off. LVG lasted 103 matches, Jose 144. After 2 years and 100+ matches now in charge himself, we're supposed to be seeing more beyond steadying the ship.
But this is no better a position than you’re arguing against. Ole has done a much better job than steadying the ship. He’s put together a really solid squad and for that we should be glad.

Im not convinced he can take us forward and suspect he’s plateaued but until he’s gone we shouldn’t write him off. We’ve seen how well he can get this squad playing and my issue with him is why he can’t get us playing that way more often. While he’s here you shouldn’t write him off. His fortunes could literally change from the next match. None of us truly know.
 

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Part of me wants Ole gone. But then the Ole in crowd will feel that the moment of anagnorisis has been prematurely snuffed. Most times I want Ole to stay here 5 more years, just to see many of the faithful either squirm or move the goalposts.
 

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How about until he has failed at the very least? We're 5 points off top 4 with a game in hand. And we started the season under worse circumstances(in terms of fitness) than every team bar City, who also are behind us.

I'm all for sacking managers who don't deliver after a certain amount of time, but Ole did well enough in his first full season and it's only been 8 games in this one.
I see your position, and agree he met his targets last season if only just. Where I'm at, is that I would hate to see this season written off like Jose's final one, where we do just enough to hang in there when we all know we're not actually going anywhere. I would love to be proven wrong, but I feel as though we've hit our limit under Ole, I don't believe he has the capability to take us any further than top 4. I do think 2 years is a reasonable amount of time to judge the manager. If it gets any worse, we shouldn't be hesitant to pull the trigger is what I'm saying.
 

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The edge Ole has over Mourinho and Van Gaal(in terms of whether or not he should get sacked):

1. His league positions have improved
I don't care about the points tally. Your league position compared to your rivals is all that matters. Going from 6th to 3rd is a step in the right direction. This is especially good when you consider the terrible luck he had with injuries. Compare this to Van Gaal, who's first season was better than his second. This is simply criminal, especially seeing as his first season was nothing special. The PL was really weak in that period. As for Mourinho, he had us in complete free fall. 11 points behind top 4 with half the season played, and no signs of turning things around.

2. His peaks are better than anything we've seen post Fergie
This is subjective, but I'll take our good football under Ole over anything I saw from Van Gaal or Mourinho. And it's not just good football over short periods. The football we played in the second half of last season beats what we saw under the other post Fergie managers over periods of similar length.

3. It's still very early!
I'm not against sacking under-performing managers! But we're only 8 games into the season. Not even halfway to the point where we sacked Mourinho. And we're looking better than we did then. Hell, we're looking better than we did at the same stage last season.
 

Hugh Jass

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I am sort of on the fence at the moment.

I still think though we are not coached and the players are sort of losing faith in Ole.
 

Majima

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But this is no better a position than you’re arguing against. Ole has done a much better job than steadying the ship. He’s put together a really solid squad and for that we should be glad.

Im not convinced he can take us forward and suspect he’s plateaued but until he’s gone we shouldn’t write him off. We’ve seen how well he can get this squad playing and my issue with him is why he can’t get us playing that way more often. While he’s here you shouldn’t write him off. His fortunes could literally change from the next match. None of us truly know.
I'm not trying to take that away from him. I agree the squad is in a much better shape for success than when he arrived.

My position is the same in that I don't think he's capable of progressing us any further, to get the best out of them. Look at how poorly coached we are in possession. We're just as clueless playing vs. deep defences after 2 years as the first day he walked in. Out of possession, we don't press particularly well too. It's mostly Bruno on his own.

There's plenty of talented players that are being underutilised right now. Look at Van de Beek. What's the plan for him? We struggle for creativity yet he's rotting on the bench? Look at how he still hasn't found a role for Pogba and Bruno in the same team. You don't want to write him off just yet because of what you've seen us capable of, which is fair enough. I'm not declaring to be a psychic. But I do see a stagnant team. I just don't see how we're supposed to be moving forward with him right now.
 
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