Can't seem to find Pogba, McTominay, Wan Bissaka or Rashford.
FA Premier League
Southampton 2:3 Manchester United
St. Mary's Stadium
- Kick-off
- Sun, 29 November 2020 @ 2:00pm GMT
- Status
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Closed
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Discussion Your Lineup Prediction
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Can't seem to find Pogba, McTominay, Wan Bissaka or Rashford.
Not convinced about that. Southampton gave us a nightmare when we played them at the end of last season, we just couldn’t get out and keep the ball. The issue is we don’t ever really have enough control of the ball and game more generally to make use of the spaces. We counter attack well but I’d still like to see us have more control.I think this will be a gritty one, will go for a hard fought 2-1 win.
Bruno and Cavani with the winner.
It's not madness. I keep saying that it's not the starting line up that's more important but the finishing line up. James can be used.
Someone mentioned in another thread about Lobanovsky. I never one of his assistants who was a coach of mine. He used to tell certain players that they are going to come off no matter what. So he instructs them to run around crazy for 40 odd minutes. Their job is to sprint as they don't have to preserve their energy for 90 mins or 70 mins.
Players like James should be asked to do that. Make the opposition tire out earlier than they expect or want.Some interesting stats.
This is going to be horrible to watch. I would say a draw.
If we weren’t having our worse ever start at home we’d be having our best ever start.Some interesting stats.
I hope Ole and the coaching staff will make adjustments to the Southampton press, which caused us problems at OT during the restart. For one, DO NOT start Pogba and Matic. Pogba is prone to make mistakes when pressed and Matic’s lack of mobility is compounds the problem. It’s has to be Fred and VDB again. If anything, you rotate McT for Fred.
With Southampton committing so many players forward to press then you want a midfielder like VDB who can help get the ball out quickly to the attackers. Fred and McT together won’t offer that.
Me too, hopefully we won't try and play it out from the back like usual - there's no shame in booting it up to Cavani.
There is absolutely no shame in that. We need to start stringing together some wins in the league. Get it to VDB and let him boot it up to Bruno or our forwards.Sorry, didnt anyone notice how terribly open we were against Istanbul with VdB in a double pivot? You dont field a partnership that has barely played a whole 1 game together against the most pressing team in PL , thats just suicide. Better to play VdB as a RW then so he can come back and help if needed.I hope Cavani plays for this one. Always have the option of route one long balls for Cavani to convert.
He can move the ball forward only if he has a passing option forward. That Istanbul team was not good with their pressing.
A good pressing team doesn't only chase the ball as mad, but the most important thing is they can work together as a team to block passing options. Thus they could isolate the player with the ball then force him into making mistake, especially if he'd want to keep the ball and move it forward.
Play VDB next match and imo we'll see him passing back most of the time.Every time, after Fergies retirement, when we play against them I just cannot seem to withhold myself, and I always remember RVP goal in FA Cup. I was so sure we will win the Treble again after that, as we had practically won the league in the fall.
Personally I am afraid of this game... Any win, penalty, whatever...as long as we start a winning streak
If my auntie had balls, she's be my uncle.
Covidball. Teams lose some home advantage, so it's no wonder why some teams are doing better on the road.
Our style under Ole suits away games in general. We can sit in and spring counter attacks. The problem is when a home team says nah, we're gonna retreat a bit and not give you the space you crave.2 PL wins on the bounce? Check
Emphatic midweek CL win? Check
This all points to a loss, such is our consistent inconsistency.
If I'm not mistaken, I recall 3 big skillsets that VDB had which we were craving for, this was mentioned in some tactical insights to the player and by the Dutch fans on the caf:
1- finding smart positions offensively
2- ability to press opponents very well
3- ability to handle a press very well, as his composure and ability to navigate the ball out of tight areas is extremely good
I've actually seen all of the above 3 in his time here so far, and have little doubt he would be the perfect midfielder to help the team beat a Southampton press.This game has mid 2000's vs Blackburn vibes. A boogey team that play out of their skins against us and that are insanely hard to beat. Hard to say really. I feel it can go either way. It's going to be supper close. Probably going to end in a draw or we will edge it out by a goal.
I would bet a tenner if I were you
3. You have two ways to beat a press.
- Strong enough to shield the ball
- Have a passing option then pass to that one
Problem is neither Fred nor McT is good at finding space, which is actually a quite difficult thing to do. You can read Xavi quote to have an idea of that. Bruno would be usually further forward the pitch. So against a good pressing team, where most of the time all the passing options are blocked, except the back or sideway one. Sometime even the sideway one is blocked. It'd be very unlikely for VDB to have an option to pass forward.
Unfortunately he's not strong either, so he can't use his strength to shield the ball. But the guy has a good awareness, and good decision making. And he knows he's not strong. So he'll make the correct decision, and pass the ball back.
P/s: I forgot there's another way to beat a press. Watch De Jong and you'd see. But you'd need to be really good with your body feint, have a good acceleration, exceptionally good with reading and anticipating the opponent players movements and a good dribbler to do so. It's actually quite rare to find such player.Last edited:
I agree with that. Our ball retaining skills are next to useless at times and if pressed hard, we easily give up possession. What's worse, we sometimes give up possession even without any pressure which irritates me to the very core. What I liked about our game against Istanbul is, we played a lot of touch and we could move the ball very quickly and through their midfield but that again could be because they gave us space. VDB in the mid-field is very much a necessity now, I love his vision and passing accuracy. Plus he works well with Bruno, which gives us more than a chance to break away from Southampton's midfield. Let's see how all this pans out. I really hope Ole doesn't drop Cavani and VDB for this game because they look like our only hope right now. I don't think Pogba-Bruno-VDB can work and I hope Ole doesn't try it now.
This is true. Fred is not a DM and cannot support the midfield on his own. He will need extra protection from either Mctom or Matic.
VDB needs to be in there, so agree that we should stick him on the right
Why? We cant have our cake and eat by thinking we can play VDB for his creative output and still be as tight defensively in midifield? Thats the pros and cons of it all.This game is an excellent opportunity to find a solution to one of our weaknesses - facing teams with an organised press.
It will be VDB's role to beat the press by carrying the ball out of tight positions and interchanging Bruno, offering to his full backs and to Fred (if such a system was played). This concept that VDB will always just pass sideways because he's partnered with Fred/McTominay is a bit overly pessimistic in my view.
If you re-watch the previous game versus Southampton you'll see a lot of our mistakes on the high press they gave was self inflicted - Pogba was atrocious as he held on the ball for too long and didn't release despite having options to pass around him. He was also too ponderous on the ball, thinking he'd have all the time in the world.
I'm not saying we will beat the press as a unit, but one of the biggest things I got excited about when we signed VDB was "finally, we've added one player in midfield who can handle a high press". I disagree with the idea that he won't be suited for it. For me he has to be the first name on the teamsheet.The best team we played last season....this is going to be very difficult. I want to see VDB in the side so it’s up to Ole to figure out how best to do that. I’d like to see Greenwood in too.
Pogba used to beat a press using his strength to shield the ball first then use his trick to get away or wait a bit, then pass to someone in a more favourable position. Recently he seems to have lost his strength, probably due to Covid I think. But he still keeps his old style. That's why he loses the ball so often I think.
Your concept will force Bruno to play relatively quite far away from the opponent's zone 14, where he's most dangerous. His job should be providing the ball to Bruno there, not making Bruno running back to help him. And our FB especially AWB are not great on the ball I think.
Tbh of course I can't be sure whether VDB would beat Sou pressing. Problem is, if he wouldn't he won't be able to help us to move the ball forward and he'll be a liability when we have to defend. He's slow, weak and doesn't have a good tackle. Playing McT there won't help us move the ball forward either but at least I know he'd do well enough when we have to defend. So it's just too risky to my liking to play VDB this match.
Anyway, we'll see by Sunday I think.Last edited:
I agree that VdB is probably one of our most press-resistant players, the qualms I have about him and Fred starting is merely down to the fact that they have played very little together , and similarly, VdB and our backline.
That will make players unsure of what and where the others are ,and how to position themselves in regards to that. And that was the reason we were so open against Istanbul. Beiing press-resistant on your own doesnt help much if the positioning of the ones around you arent in a correct place.
If they had played like 10-15 games together I wouldnt mind them starting, but as of right now the most in sync midfielders we have are McT and Fred, and thats why I would start them.
Yes, they arent the best against press, but its the best we got all things considered. I just hope we can start maybe hoofing some balls now and then if needed.
No, Pogba was rarely ever good in a deeper role for us. He was chronically ponderous and didn't handle being pressed well. He flourishes when he has time and space around him, and it's odd you're bringing up him having covid when the games I refer to date back to last season.
No, it's the same system with VDB instead of Pogba. I'm saying VDB is well suited to games where we have to beat a press because his skill-set covers pressing well himself, working well in tight areas and carrying the ball further up the pitch.
I mean, after the bold bit I'm genuinely curious how much you've actually seen VDB play. You're sounding like the posters who claimed he's just a Thomas Muller and nothing else hours before he flourishes in a box to box role in a Champions League game.
I do see where you are coming from, but my view is playing both Scot and Fred will show Southampton too much respect, because we will certainly fail to muster any attacks unless it's a counter. It could work as they press so high, but I do not think the pure energetic ball winning from McTominay out weighs VDB to the extent that it's worth sacrificing possession play for.
We’re deader than tank topsMcT is out still it seems?
Then it will VdB and Fred for sure.
I was talking about how generally Pogba would deal with a press before this season, not when he played as a double pivot. It's true that he lost the ball back then but not as much as currently. Well, it's another topic I think.
Regarding VDB. Yes he's slow, weak and doesn't have a good tackle. I wish he's Muller but no, he's not.
Now we can look into a typical situation.
Fred is pressed and he passes the ball to VDB. Bruno is in his 14 zone.
He receives the ball and a Sou player approaches VDB from the side trying to kick him off the ball. Another one approach him from the front to block his pass to Bruno.
Now VDB has two choices.
Keep and shield the ball? well no he's not strong enough. So he will look for options to pass.
Fred? He's right behind or near another Sou player. So no.
AWB? Well it's the side said Sou player is approaching. So no.
So he'll turn and pass it back to Lindelof or Maguire.
Anyway, we can agree to disagree then I think.
Honestly lets just agree to disagree. I don't really want to continue a VDB debate with claims like this
Guess we are about to find out how VDB performs then. I agree that the team still isn't set out to deal with a press that well, but VDB playing for me is a step in the right direction.No presser again?
Don't be surprised if it's Matic and Fred
Oh god that wouldn't be good. Matic got caught out as much as Pogba did.I suppose, because James played well for 10 minutes, he'll be starting every game again.
Van de Beek is the player who has option before the ball is coming to him. Eventhough he will make a risky pass forward and fail, he won't make a simple back pass when no one is charging him.
Last month, He made a long pass to Mata after being pressed by 2 Newcastle players. He had so many simple pass options at the time, but he saw Mata was running forward and start a counter attack.
He won't keep the ball possesion, even against Istanbul we weren't dominating the ball with him.
Problem is if he plays in the PL, especially against Sou there'll be always at least one player chasing him. While others blocking his passing options. Sou is quite good with their pressing, according to the last time we met them.
That pass to Mata was in a counter situation, when he had an option to pass forward. I didn't say he wouldn't pass forward if he has an option. I was just afraid he'd have almost none next match.
If Van de Beek isn't good enough to play against Southampton he's got no business being at United.
it's insane people think he can't handle playing against teams with a semi decent press. He a very good player and I don't understand the reservations people have.- Status
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Compiled from 388 ratings.
Score Predictions
144,30,38
- Man Utd win
- Southampton win
- Draw
Detailed Results
- 24% Southampton 1:2 Man Utd
- 15% Southampton 1:3 Man Utd
- 13% Southampton 1:1 Man Utd
- 10% Southampton 0:2 Man Utd
- 7% Southampton 2:1 Man Utd
- 7% Southampton 2:3 Man Utd
- 5% Southampton 0:1 Man Utd
- 5% Southampton 2:2 Man Utd
- 4% Southampton 2:0 Man Utd
- 4% Southampton 0:3 Man Utd
- 2% Southampton 2:4 Man Utd
- 1% Southampton 1:0 Man Utd
- 1% Southampton 3:1 Man Utd
- 1% Southampton 0:4 Man Utd
- 0% Southampton 0:0 Man Utd
- 0% Southampton 5:0 Man Utd
Match Stats
- Southampton
- Man Utd
- Possession
- 50% 50%
- Shots
- 10 15
- Shots on Target
- 5 6
- Corners
- 5 9
- Fouls
- 12 12
Referee
Jonathan Moss
Man Utd Lineup
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replaced by Dean Henderson
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replaced by Brandon Williams
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replaced by Edinson Cavani
