The Premier League is more interesting than it probably ever has been. I bet our fans wouldn't be saying that if we were still top of the league.
The PL is in decline
- Thread starter Nani Nana
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The only significant difference is that you can't name 2 out of 3 Ballon d'Or finalists for the next 5 years. Maybe you even can't do it for 1 year ahead, what makes it much more exciting.
I'd say Premier League is as good as ever, probably more difficult to play mid table teams not only because of their fighting spirit, but also quality. Not sure if this argument that top epl teams have declined stands if you see current standings and the fact in the last 3 years 3/6 champions league finalist were English sides.
My prediction though is that Premier League top clubs will not be able to remain on the same level whole season, especially considering this special year. Pretty sure all will be more tired at the end of season than for example PSG, possibly Spanish giants too.
Also, I'd be more confident playing current Utd vs current Barca rather than 10 years ago, when they thrashed us twice.
I'd say Premier League is as good as ever, probably more difficult to play mid table teams not only because of their fighting spirit, but also quality. Not sure if this argument that top epl teams have declined stands if you see current standings and the fact in the last 3 years 3/6 champions league finalist were English sides.
My prediction though is that Premier League top clubs will not be able to remain on the same level whole season, especially considering this special year. Pretty sure all will be more tired at the end of season than for example PSG, possibly Spanish giants too.
Also, I'd be more confident playing current Utd vs current Barca rather than 10 years ago, when they thrashed us twice.
I agree 100%.
I'm not being shitty here, but has the lack of interest related to a lack of success compared to the Fergie years? I started supporting Tottenham just at the end of the Venables era and have never once in all those years of shit lost any interest. Trust me Ole is a gift compared to the likes of Gerry Francis, Christian Gross etc.
Has it declined or just less fun to watch? Football these days is just a matter of who makes a mistake first rather than some genius piece of play. But that doesn’t mean it’s declined
however, I’d back all the 00 top 6 clubs to beat their current version minus Liverpool
however, I’d back all the 00 top 6 clubs to beat their current version minus Liverpool
Why do people keep pushing this message about a superleague and abandoning the PL? It's never going to happen!
The PL peaked when it was United vs Arsenal for me. You won't get that much skill, aggression, class, tactical prowess again.
I was saying it in 2001! Stopped watching for a bit because the league was piss poor outside of United and Arsenal
No. It's not that. I will always watch United through thick or thin.
Maybe it was the most fun but that could be nostalgia talking for me at least since it was my first memories of the league and those tend to stand out as favorites. But quality wise? Not a chance! That Arsenal team could not compete at the European stage when the competition was arguably less than it eventually became towards the end of the '00s. The PL struggled to attract the best talent from abroad and was a significant third in that regard compared to La Liga and Serie A. I think the only unquestionably elite player we bought from abroad at the time was Veron whereas for Arsenal, it was no one. I remember at the time also, there was also talks of how the English team had to change their way of playing to adjust to playing the European teams because the league was much more culturally isolated with the bulk of managers coming from the British isles.
There are more top teams as evidenced by performances in the European competitions. The very best managers and coaches work in the PL nowadays and the transfer power has never been bigger. So in terms of preference, that will always be subjective and comes down to what one looks for, but it's hard to find any objective criteria where the league was better in the '90s or early '00s.
How can the PL be in decline when you have 10 clubs which can genuinely beat each other?
It was guaranteed top 4 before and we are in a position where there is a top 6 which does not include Leicester and the like?
Most away games are difficult, teams get found out if they rest 2/3 players in a PL game now.
It was guaranteed top 4 before and we are in a position where there is a top 6 which does not include Leicester and the like?
Most away games are difficult, teams get found out if they rest 2/3 players in a PL game now.
That’s bollocks to be honest. The PL as a while is at a way higher standard now than it has been in a while due to the insane amount of money all teams have.
There’s no team absolutely dominating, sure but that’s because of the money throughout the league.
There’s no team absolutely dominating, sure but that’s because of the money throughout the league.
I totally disagree with this, depending on what you mean by a while.
City and Liverpool racking up more points than any other PL team, (record was 95 points by Chelsea in 04/05) both getting more than 95 points twice each in the last 3 years. This is not because them two are better than previous PL champions, but mainly because the standards have dropped.
When Man United finished 2nd under Mourinho on 81 points less than 4 years ago, they racked up more points than Sir Alex Ferguson's Man United in the Premier League era on 8 occasions. That is quite unbelievable considering that Mourinho United team wasn't great.
Complete bollocks.
Between 2012-2017 the PL was declining, now it's the highest quality league in the world.
Between 2012-2017 the PL was declining, now it's the highest quality league in the world.
Maybe the highest quality from top to bottom but the top 6 teams are not exactly amazing.
The best PL teams of 10 years ago would pummel the best teams of now.
Liverpool have been exceptional the last 2 years, but City have been found out in Europe every year, United are not at the top level yet. Chelsea and Spurs are alright but nothing special. Can't really include Arsenal anymore, but if you want to include Leicester or Wolves instead then that's underwhelming.
On the contrary, the average PL team has gotten significantly better.
Same trend in europe though. Dortmund obviously not as strong as they were under Klopp despite all the potential upfront and Real Madrid and Barca in major transition which will continue for next two years I think. Juve aswell.
Premier league does have very high calibre of manager working in it now right through the top half
Not just the top teams but considering we're debating him in the other thread Southampton managed to get in Hasenhuttl when they were bottom 3 and he'd just lead a team to 2nd in Bundesliga. Nuno and Bielsa also went to championship teams and now doing their good work in prem.
Pochettino will surely be back at some point in next 12 months to strength that further.
We've had the best record of any European nation in club competitions over the last few years.
12 of the 48 teams to make a European QF in the last three years were English. 5 of the last 12 finalists. Only Spain comes close but we are ahead of them.
This ranking table based on Uefa Coefficients shows how we have been doing. The scores are base on european results from the previous five years - England moving to the top of the table in 2022 is representative of us having the best results over 2018 - 2020.
(I generated the graph here: https://kassiesa.net/uefa/graphs/crank-graph-display.php)
12 of the 48 teams to make a European QF in the last three years were English. 5 of the last 12 finalists. Only Spain comes close but we are ahead of them.
This ranking table based on Uefa Coefficients shows how we have been doing. The scores are base on european results from the previous five years - England moving to the top of the table in 2022 is representative of us having the best results over 2018 - 2020.
(I generated the graph here: https://kassiesa.net/uefa/graphs/crank-graph-display.php)
Football has declined in general for a few years now. Liverpool and Spurs are topping the PL currently and neither have a single "international star" in their squads. Salah or Mane or Son don't have the stature of Drogba, Rooney, Gerard, Lampard, Fabregas, van Persie, Ronaldo, Rio, Terry etc. from just about 10 years ago.
Current international superstars like MBappe are really underwhelming. Neymar is almost forgotten.
Barca and Real are completely done right now.
Juventus is a far cry from the days when they had Pirlo, Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio some years ago.
The top 2 teams in the world, Liverpool and Bayern, are like the German national teams from the late 90s and beginning of 00s. Well managed machines without real world class players. You always end up wondering how Klose and Podolski got them so far.
Current international superstars like MBappe are really underwhelming. Neymar is almost forgotten.
Barca and Real are completely done right now.
Juventus is a far cry from the days when they had Pirlo, Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio some years ago.
The top 2 teams in the world, Liverpool and Bayern, are like the German national teams from the late 90s and beginning of 00s. Well managed machines without real world class players. You always end up wondering how Klose and Podolski got them so far.
The top managers are in the PL because PL clubs pay the best wages to managers, Other managers such as Hasenhuttl will join clubs like Southampton because they can afford to pay top wages.
Arsenal became 'the invinvibles' by signing rejects and no name players, that's absolutely impossible right now. I think social media and the amount of games on tv affect your perspective a bit and obviously and this is something what people don't like to hear but quite often when you think about what you were experiencing when you were 15, 20, 25 years younger... of course everything was 'better' for many, many people. Plus for some United fans you were winning the main trophies and had the best players so obviously a lot of you enjoy it less now and somehow came to that conclusion that the league must be weaker now when United don't win.
The PL hasn’t declined, it’s become more competitive. The desire of big clubs to start a European super league is more selfish than anything and had nothing to do with the cash cow the premier league has become. It more has to do cash certainty and guaranteed European football every year.
It’s not surprising that in the time that our owners incompetence is there to be seen that they want to make ensure that European revenue is guaranteed rather than competing with greater quality in the league and competition from clubs like Leicester and Wolves who never would have come close just a decade ago.
It’s not surprising that in the time that our owners incompetence is there to be seen that they want to make ensure that European revenue is guaranteed rather than competing with greater quality in the league and competition from clubs like Leicester and Wolves who never would have come close just a decade ago.
Short answer is yes. Last season a side that hadn't won a league title in 30 years won it with 6 games to spare.
Current league leader are managed by fella well past his best.
Current league leader are managed by fella well past his best.
Great post and agree completely
To me it feels that the quality of players have declined.
We were so used to seeing top strikers around (Ruud, Henry, Torres, Zlatan, Del Piero, Raul, R9, Shevchenko etc.). Now there are only a handful.
We were so used to seeing top quality midfield controllers (Pirlo, Scholes, Xavi, Zidane, Rui Costa, Deco, Fabregas etc.). Now there are only a handful.
We were so used to strong midfield hard men (Keane, Vieira, Gattuso etc.). Where are they now?
Wingers. Where the feck are the top quality wingers these days?
Defenders used to take pride in defending. Now defenders are more interested in being 'silky' and being able to play out from the back.
We were so used to seeing top strikers around (Ruud, Henry, Torres, Zlatan, Del Piero, Raul, R9, Shevchenko etc.). Now there are only a handful.
We were so used to seeing top quality midfield controllers (Pirlo, Scholes, Xavi, Zidane, Rui Costa, Deco, Fabregas etc.). Now there are only a handful.
We were so used to strong midfield hard men (Keane, Vieira, Gattuso etc.). Where are they now?
Wingers. Where the feck are the top quality wingers these days?
Defenders used to take pride in defending. Now defenders are more interested in being 'silky' and being able to play out from the back.
As most have said, the PL is much stronger now than it was 20 odd years ago. Over that time period, while individually some of the clubs aren't as strong as their peaks (United, Chelsea), we have gone from a situation where in terms of competitiveness there was a big 2 (United, Arsenal), to a big 3 when Abramovich came along, to a big 4 (United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea), to the advent of the new City "project"....and suddenly we had 5 teams fighting tooth and nail for the 4 CL spots; all of whom could have realistic aspirations of competing for the title. And then came the "rise" of Spurs, and suddenly there was a big 6. In the middle of all of that Leicester gatecrashed the party and won a title, and are still highly competitive. And now we are getting teams like Everton, Wolves and Southampton becoming really competent upper middle table table sides and putting pressure on those 5-7th spots. Regularly beating incumbents of the "big 6".
The depth in this league is ridiculous. Aside from one or two teams, who inevitably implode every year, there are just no easy games any more. There used to be a time when United could rest half the team for a weekend trip to a bottom half team, to prepare for a big European night; but nowadays that means almost certainly dropped points. If anything we see more rotation and rest in Europe than we do in the league, because making top 4 is worth more money than getting out of the CL group. This is such an overlooked fact when it comes to the competitiveness of English teams in Europe over the years. Barca, Real, Juventus, Bayern, PSG are almost always in the luxury situation of being to rest all their key players before European games, because the depth in their leagues just isn't there. In top end sport the 1 and 2%'s make all the difference.
You also need to look at how the collective bargaining of the PL teams has created such huge depth over time. With the 3rd bottom team in England getting more TV money than the team that finishes 3rd in Spain (assuming it's not Real or Barca). 15 years ago, United could poach all the best players from around the league. Because money and history talks. Ferdinand, Rooney, Carrick, Berbatov, Saha, etc etc. Go back another 5-10 years and 3/4 of our legendary treble strike force came from PL rivals, (Cole, Yorke, Sheringham). But you can't do that any more. Not to the extent we could, anyway. What price a 17 year old Wayne Rooney from Everton today? 100m? 150? What about Ferdinand just about to enter his peak? If VVD was 75M, Rio would be a 100M in today's market. The point being that team's like Everton, Spurs, even the Southampton's etc, don't need the money. They don't have to sell unless they get crazy money. 15 years ago players like Maddison, Neves, Grealish, and Traore would've left ages ago for reasonable fees to the bigger clubs. But we are looking at players whose clubs are going to demand 60M+ each, for players who probably aren't in the top tier of talent. So they stay put, making the depth of the league that much stronger.
The perfect example of this is Harry Kane. Spurs are not an historically big club. They are below that top tier. They have pedigree, a sense of romance and intrigue about them, they've brought some exciting players to the league (Ardiles, Klinsmann, Ginola etc), and had some top talents over the years (Gascoigne, Hoddle, Bale etc); but they were always a selling club because they didn't have the resources or pedigree to resist the pull and offers of top table clubs. We always cherry picked Spurs' best players. But in the last 5-7 years that has changed dramatically. It first started with Levy refusing to sell Modric to a PL rival, then continued with a spattering of CL football and cash, and then came home with the absolute boom of TV rights. 15 years ago Kane would've been a United player two years ago. We'd have paid a big fee for him, but he'd have come. Now? Zero chance without a world record fee. And you'd be nuts to drop 200m+ on any player, let alone Harry Kane. Spurs have invested 1bn+ on their stadium, get semi-regular CL football, are competitive, and can keep a hold of their top players.
There is no other league in the world where there is such quality in the depth of the league. So while we are million miles away from the heyday of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez, the league as a whole is way, way, way stronger.
The depth in this league is ridiculous. Aside from one or two teams, who inevitably implode every year, there are just no easy games any more. There used to be a time when United could rest half the team for a weekend trip to a bottom half team, to prepare for a big European night; but nowadays that means almost certainly dropped points. If anything we see more rotation and rest in Europe than we do in the league, because making top 4 is worth more money than getting out of the CL group. This is such an overlooked fact when it comes to the competitiveness of English teams in Europe over the years. Barca, Real, Juventus, Bayern, PSG are almost always in the luxury situation of being to rest all their key players before European games, because the depth in their leagues just isn't there. In top end sport the 1 and 2%'s make all the difference.
You also need to look at how the collective bargaining of the PL teams has created such huge depth over time. With the 3rd bottom team in England getting more TV money than the team that finishes 3rd in Spain (assuming it's not Real or Barca). 15 years ago, United could poach all the best players from around the league. Because money and history talks. Ferdinand, Rooney, Carrick, Berbatov, Saha, etc etc. Go back another 5-10 years and 3/4 of our legendary treble strike force came from PL rivals, (Cole, Yorke, Sheringham). But you can't do that any more. Not to the extent we could, anyway. What price a 17 year old Wayne Rooney from Everton today? 100m? 150? What about Ferdinand just about to enter his peak? If VVD was 75M, Rio would be a 100M in today's market. The point being that team's like Everton, Spurs, even the Southampton's etc, don't need the money. They don't have to sell unless they get crazy money. 15 years ago players like Maddison, Neves, Grealish, and Traore would've left ages ago for reasonable fees to the bigger clubs. But we are looking at players whose clubs are going to demand 60M+ each, for players who probably aren't in the top tier of talent. So they stay put, making the depth of the league that much stronger.
The perfect example of this is Harry Kane. Spurs are not an historically big club. They are below that top tier. They have pedigree, a sense of romance and intrigue about them, they've brought some exciting players to the league (Ardiles, Klinsmann, Ginola etc), and had some top talents over the years (Gascoigne, Hoddle, Bale etc); but they were always a selling club because they didn't have the resources or pedigree to resist the pull and offers of top table clubs. We always cherry picked Spurs' best players. But in the last 5-7 years that has changed dramatically. It first started with Levy refusing to sell Modric to a PL rival, then continued with a spattering of CL football and cash, and then came home with the absolute boom of TV rights. 15 years ago Kane would've been a United player two years ago. We'd have paid a big fee for him, but he'd have come. Now? Zero chance without a world record fee. And you'd be nuts to drop 200m+ on any player, let alone Harry Kane. Spurs have invested 1bn+ on their stadium, get semi-regular CL football, are competitive, and can keep a hold of their top players.
There is no other league in the world where there is such quality in the depth of the league. So while we are million miles away from the heyday of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez, the league as a whole is way, way, way stronger.
I think this is a natural result of players have a very different motivation in modern football.
Unfortunately, average players become multi millionaires at a very early age now. It’s going to be hard to get the same level of drive and motivation players used to have over 20 years ago.
I think the average quality of football over all 20 teams is as high as it’s ever been.
Very very Suspicious
Eye test isn’t the way to judge the quality of the league or football in general. Not sure there’s any substantial evidence to support the idea football has declined.
The PL hasn’t declined, in fact it’s probably the best it’s ever been. However I don’t think a ESL is too far away and I used to think that would be impossible.
I agree with this. The difference is that the mediocre teams are much better than in the 90's and 00's and the leagues are much stronger even in Spain this seems to be the case. Most games are competitive now and in general the margins are much tighter now. You could even argue that the European competitions are tougher now because the lesser teams have much more money to spend and a better squad because of it.
I like other Utd fans would love to see Utd dominate again but it's going to be very very hard, don't see any team dominating the league for decades anytime soon.
Athletes today in every sport can, on average, run circles around their counterparts from even ten years ago. Conditioning, nutrition, recovery, training, supplements, everything is better today. Comparing the performance of clubs today and saying they have declined is more an acknowledgment that the overall standard is higher and the quality of the players has improved across the board. Even a mid-table team today would walk the league in decades past.
Absolutely no way that is true... 30 years maybe... over a ten-year timeframe, definitely not...
Besides, conditioning is only one part of football...
Real Madrid alone have as many Champions League trophies as all English clubs put together.
Let that sink in
Football overall is in free-fall declining, not just the PL but more so the rest of the other leagues. PL is still the best of course and far more entertaining. To be honest, I find football more and more boring nowadays. Of course, now and then you'll get the good teams in form and great matches, but it pales in comparison to before.
But then we think this way because of the high standards of football in the 2000s and 90s. That mostly has to do with the plentiful of players with far genuine characters compare to the many "fake", boring "pc" and "social media bs" personas of footballers today, IMO. The characters in today's football are too few in comparison. Of course, you do have the Brunos, Haaland, etc. Still few compare to the characters in the two peak football decades.
Can't comment on the 80s and before that.
But then we think this way because of the high standards of football in the 2000s and 90s. That mostly has to do with the plentiful of players with far genuine characters compare to the many "fake", boring "pc" and "social media bs" personas of footballers today, IMO. The characters in today's football are too few in comparison. Of course, you do have the Brunos, Haaland, etc. Still few compare to the characters in the two peak football decades.
Can't comment on the 80s and before that.
I had a chance of watching two games side by side in local bar.
Torino and Sampdoria
Leicester City and Fulham
There was so so much difference in the quality of football of two games. In the Torino game, players had so much time and space even around the penalty areas. The second goal by Fabio for Sampdoria was such a poor goal. People were allowed to recover from mistakes
And in comparison, the Leicester City game. No player had time on the ball. Players were making so many small runs and interchange of passes was so so much better from both sides.
It was like watching two different classes of football side by side
Torino and Sampdoria
Leicester City and Fulham
There was so so much difference in the quality of football of two games. In the Torino game, players had so much time and space even around the penalty areas. The second goal by Fabio for Sampdoria was such a poor goal. People were allowed to recover from mistakes
And in comparison, the Leicester City game. No player had time on the ball. Players were making so many small runs and interchange of passes was so so much better from both sides.
It was like watching two different classes of football side by side
*Looks at the team you support* Madrid and Barcelona are one of the most fiercest rivalries in football, yet when it comes to English clubs, I've noticed Barcelona fans (source BarcaForum), jump on the Madrid bandwagon fairly quickly (their Champions League wins) when it comes to talk vs English clubs and going on about it if it's also Barcelona's sucess too, which is quite strange to me.
I don't even understand your point though, we are talking about a league as a whole. Madrid are just 1 club from the Spanish league, what as Madrid's success got to do with La Liga's strength as a whole? The Premier League is the only league to have demonstrated (twice) a team can finish outside the top4 during a domestic season and still win the Champions League (Liverpool 2005 and Chelsea 2012 ), that shows the strength of a league.
Average Premier League teams like Everton can go out, hire one of the best and most successful managers in world football and splash more cash in a summer transfer window than all of La Liga/Serie A/Bundesliga combined (if you took out Madrid/Barca/Bayern/Juventus), again that shows the strength of a league, you let all that sink in.
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And yet how many Europa League trophies do Everton have compared to say, Sevilla?
The Premier League has had a strong financial advantage over the rest of Europe for a long time now, and it has never really translated into sustained European dominance. The Premier League’s financial advantage over the other top European leagues borders on what you can call “diminishing returns”.
Also, that “top manager” Everton have hired is well past his prime. He was sacked by Napoli in his previous job.
Until the Premier League dominates the Europe in a similar manner to what La Liga did in the 2010s decade, any attempt to call it a European super league is delusional.
The only reason this is being said now is because Covid is tainting everybody's view of it and because United has been on the decline since Fergie left, we simply aren't so relevant in the PL anymore when it comes to actually being a football team, only that one year where we came second were we at all relevant.
If this season was running as normal, no covid, fans in stadium etc this thread would never have been made
If this season was running as normal, no covid, fans in stadium etc this thread would never have been made