The PL is in decline

My personal take is the quality is better than ever

Back in the early 2000s so many PL sides just got 10 men behind the ball and used a big target man

Now nearly all the teams play decent football, with great passing technique throughout the squad

Just watching West Ham Villa now, an equivalent sort of game twenty years ago would be a slog-fest with teams kicking lumps out of each other

If it has declined, which is debatable - it hasn’t declined relative to other leagues. By far the strongest league.

Freak said:

To me it feels that the quality of players have declined.

We were so used to seeing top strikers around (Ruud, Henry, Torres, Zlatan, Del Piero, Raul, R9, Shevchenko etc.). Now there are only a handful.
We were so used to seeing top quality midfield controllers (Pirlo, Scholes, Xavi, Zidane, Rui Costa, Deco, Fabregas etc.). Now there are only a handful.
We were so used to strong midfield hard men (Keane, Vieira, Gattuso etc.). Where are they now?
Wingers. Where the feck are the top quality wingers these days?
Defenders used to take pride in defending. Now defenders are more interested in being 'silky' and being able to play out from the back.

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You literally grouped a decades worth of players there. That would be like me discussing ibra, xavi, iniesta, Alonso etc pirlo even.

The quality is significantly better. I first started watching football regularly during the early 00s and some of the shite we blew away then was terrible in hindsight. Promoted teams like Leeds are entering the league, jamming their squads full of talented players from all corners of the globe, and playing some fantastic football straight off the bat. There has been huge improvements in terms of coaching and the approach towards football matches, too. Teams in the bottom half in 2003 wouldn’t have even contemplated taking the game to a United or Arsenal, never mind actually sustain it over periods of matches.

It’s taken for granted just how high the quality of your average Premier League footballer is these days.

SirMarcusRashford said:

The Premier League is the European Super League.

Clubs outside England have been trying for years to end Premier League financial dominance. As much as people hate to admit it, the Premier League is the envy of the world in a football sense (money/various playing styles/competiveness/drama/players playing here/managers managing here/atmospheres/history and worldwide appeal), English clubs would be fools to ruin what we have in this league.

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The CL is the current superleague.

Real, Bayern and Barca have been the gold standard of world football for a long time.

I really disagree with this. There has never been more total quality all round the Premiership clubs. And there certainly have never been as many good managers as now either. The issue I have with it, is that the reason for it seem to mostly be money. Which is really killing my love for football. I bet there are 4th or 5th level players in England making more money than your average Joe these days. And of course some of the top players make more in a week than most of us will in a life time. To then watch them go sulking about and not give a shit on the pitch, and care more about their Twitter or Instagram followers than the club, is what's killing it.

Back in 1996, when my local team Rosenborg beat AC Milan at San Siro to knock them out of the group stage, and go on to the then Quarter Final of the Champions League - that's the times I want back. When a bunch of nobodies worked their socks off to beat Maldini and Baresi and the rest of that great team. There's been a few more moments like that after it, but it's really hard to get excited about anything these days. Even in Norway it seems to be more about the money and fame for most players. I'm really excited about the team winning this season though, Bodø Glimt. That's a proper flash back to what football used to be about for me.

A super league would obviously just be about even more money - and frankly I probably wouldn't even bother watching it. It would also kill any enjoyment of the, on paper, weaker teams getting into and doing well in the Champions League.

I'm probably just getting old to be honest...

Cait Sith said:

The top 2 teams in the world, Liverpool and Bayern, are like the German national teams from the late 90s and beginning of 00s. Well managed machines without real world class players. You always end up wondering how Klose and Podolski got them so far.

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Yeah, because Neuer, Kimmich, Müller, Sané, Lewandowski or Alison, Van Dijk, Thiago, Salah, Mané aren't worldclass players ...

Disagree completely. Why are we even trying to judge the current level of football, considering the global pandemic, which has affected the sport in an unprecedented way?

I think if we were winning the major trophies right now, almost no Man United fan would say anything about a decline in football. We don't have to disregard the success of the scousers to make ourselves feel better. That's what they used to do and we should know better.

The only aspect of the game that seems to have diminished a bit is pure defending at the highest level. That's because football has changed so much and so much more emphasis is put into being able to handle the ball in a sufficient technical level, whilst a lot more stricter rules have been imposed on aggressive old-school defending. So the top defenders in modern football seem a bit suspect when they need to individually handle situations, compared to the greats of the past, but that is due to so many various factors, of which a main one is how complex the defending and attacking structures are nowadays.

I'm totally against a "Super League" that breaks up the regular national top divisions. It would probably lower my interest in football even further.

I think the standard of football is poor, the game from what I remember used to be faster teams really playing from the front foot. Even Everton under Moyes few years back were a decent attacking side to watch, but with the influx of different managerial cultures the game is lethargic, too tactical and compressed. The leagues standard outside City / Liverpool is below standard including ourselves.

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:

If it has declined, which is debatable - it hasn’t declined relative to other leagues. By far the strongest league.

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I would argue it is as strong as it has ever been. Feel like the weaker sides are much better than the years we had Stoke in midtable and Moyes Everton fighting for CL.

I feel the top has maybe gone down slightly thinking about City and Liverpool compared to two years ago.

In my personal, and probably faulty, view I don't think it's necessarily that the league has become less competitive or that the quality has dipped. I reckon there's a good mix of quality from at least the middle of the table at least. The problem I see though is in the approach that teams take these days. I might just be me but everything just seems so regimented and tightly-controlled. There's no space for individualism as players are expected to work as a cog in a very systematic machine. I'm not saying that players aren't allowed to express themselves but I see less individual moments of pure magic than there used to be. Plus teams at the bottom realise how vulnerable they are to an absolute walloping so they'll defend deeper and give the best teams less space to work in. As someone else has mentioned in this thread, counter-attacking seems to be the name of the game these days.

And of course the overriding factor, at least for me, is that essentially United aren't as successful as they used to be and *vomit* City and Liverpool are. That's enough to dampen any United fans enthusiasm for the game.

Nah, the Premier League currently is probably one of the strongest leagues ever and close to 1980s Italian league in terms of strength through the league. Wolves, Leeds, Everton for example, some excellent mid-table teams managed by world-class managers with some really good players. Everton have Rodriguez, Villa have Grealish and Palace have Zaha etc, vast majority has a player or two that can really put on a show.

There has never been fewer easy games in the PL. And I usually hate Sky Sports Premier League PR but I think it’s right now.

Infordin said:

And yet how many Europa League trophies do Everton have compared to say, Sevilla?

The Premier League has had a strong financial advantage over the rest of Europe for a long time now, and it has never really translated into sustained European dominance. The Premier League’s financial advantage over the other top European leagues borders on what you can call “diminishing returns”.

Also, that “top manager” Everton have hired is well past his prime. He was sacked by Napoli in his previous job.

Until the Premier League dominates the Europe in a similar manner to what La Liga did in the 2010s decade, any attempt to call it a European super league is delusional.

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Premier League clubs have only just started to take the Europa League cup competition serious and that is only because it's now another route into the Champions League, so I'm not even sure why you are even bringing that up, it's common football knowledge leagues from continental Europe have always took the Europa League far more serious than English clubs, the only reason there's more English teams now in Europa League semi finals/finals and winning it is the route into the Champions League, no other reason!

United won it a couple of years ago, barely anyone even mentioned United being Champions of Europe to be honest, barely anyone was even interested, all the talk was about United being back in the Champions League and that's all the Europa League was to United that season. The FA Cup (the world's best and most watched domestic cup competition) as always been regarded as higher than the Europa League in England and still is.

As for Carlo Ancelotti, people said the same about Jose, but his team are currently top the Premier League. End of the day, Ancelotti is one the best managers in world football and his record shows that. But when you have the quality managers managing in this league who we have (Pep/Klopp/Ancelotti/Jose/Bielsa etc) and the likes of Pochettino waiting in the wings for the next sacking. All aren't going to be successful and those who aren't are going to have 'flop' and 'overrated' stamped on their forehead and this is probably not the case, the Premier League is just that competitive and the best of the best (managers/players) play each other week in week out, hence why (in my opinion) it is already a 'European Super League'.

The Premier League has arguably the highest standard across all of its representative teams.

I think the fact most teams can afford to reject big bids from the larger clubs, tells you a lot about this. The revenue in the PL outstrips any other league in the world. That’a what the “Super League” is about. Other clubs tapping into that revenue stream.

In theory, outside of that, the likes of Madrid, Juventus, Barca, Bayern, PSG have more to lose if they opted to abandon their own leagues, as they can only have 1 winner per season. They’re fire it just becomes Premier League Mark 2.

One horse race : shit league, no competition
8 horse race : shit league, everyone's in decline

We've had this "the 90s is a lot better" thread in all decades, 2000, 2010, 2020, nostalgic romance, I doubt any of you actually watch alot of non United (or the club you supported) football, yet somehow you always reminisce the Serie A as being a lot better while the current EPL is shit and souless.

The EPL is at its strongest is my 2cents, the weakest period is during our dominance era, we're practically a one horse race with Arsenal invicible sprinkled into it, the rest just don't stand a chance, but hey.. it wasn't boring back then was it?

This Round, not a single one of the teams that occupied the top 6 spots in the table won their games. That can't happen very often.

There's no question that results and performances this year are more unstable than usually. You'd assume the short preseason and the intensity of the schedule factors into that.

But it also seems plain that there are simply more good teams, and for my part I'd say the general level of the football seems to have gone up. It's really not a big 6 situation anymore. There's at least 10 teams that are good enough to plausibly challenge for European qualification. And since nearly all of those teams 10 have been strengthened since last season, the reason certainly can't be that the football has become worse,

I disagree the quality is better than ever.

Most of the ‘small’ clubs have evolved, they don’t turn up to park the bus anymore and generally have a system and style of play. Spending by the lower to mid table teams is also at a all time high (well, before Covid anyway).

Is the quality better but the standard of football not as appealing to watch?

I think the quality is better now than let's say 10-15 years ago mainly due to the financial power and bottom half clubs not being afraid to hire interesting foreign managers who want their side to play football rather than hooftball. Now even some bottom half teams can easily pass the ball and play fluid football which was never the case some years ago. The biggest issue in PL is that there is so much money flowing that clubs waste it so easily on crap players. Money spent to quality ratio is quite terrible in PL and for example La Liga teams are doing much better in that regard.

arthurka said:

I agree with this. The difference is that the mediocre teams are much better than in the 90's and 00's and the leagues are much stronger even in Spain this seems to be the case. Most games are competitive now and in general the margins are much tighter now.

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People keep saying this throughout the thread but the evidence points to the exact opposite, at least in England. The last three title winners had 99, 98, and a 100 points, respectively. Now either these City and Liverpool sides are the greatest the country has ever seen, and by some distance too - or mid-table teams aren't actually any better relative to the top teams, and arguably worse than in the 90s or 00s.

Siorac said:

People keep saying this throughout the thread but the evidence points to the exact opposite, at least in England. The last three title winners had 99, 98, and a 100 points, respectively. Now either these City and Liverpool sides are the greatest the country has ever seen, and by some distance too - or mid-table teams aren't actually any better relative to the top teams, and arguably worse than in the 90s or 00s.

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You know they might actually be the best sides.. Not the greatest teams but having tremendous seasons. But it's a good point you make but I think personally that the matches are much better and the quality is in large part better. Do I think the great Utd teams in the past would be competitive today, absolutely. But they would need to become better.

arthurka said:

You know they might actually be the best sides.. Not the greatest teams but having tremendous seasons. But it's a good point you make but I think personally that the matches are much better and the quality is in large part better. Do I think the great Utd teams in the past would be competitive today, absolutely. But they would need to become better.

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Fair enough. I also think that the games on the whole are probably better, of a higher quality - though I watch a lot less non-United football than I did a decade ago.

Agree with those saying football has declined. It’s progression in other ways, ways which don’t actually benefit the fan, has funnily enough led to the overall quality declining, I think.

Kag said:

The quality is significantly better. I first started watching football regularly during the early 00s and some of the shite we blew away then was terrible in hindsight. Promoted teams like Leeds are entering the league, jamming their squads full of talented players from all corners of the globe, and playing some fantastic football straight off the bat. There has been huge improvements in terms of coaching and the approach towards football matches, too. Teams in the bottom half in 2003 wouldn’t have even contemplated taking the game to a United or Arsenal, never mind actually sustain it over periods of matches.

It’s taken for granted just how high the quality of your average Premier League footballer is these days.

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Coaching has improved, which has improved lower level teams, because they can be well drilled in what they do. But at the top level football has declined overall, across Europe.

I actually disagree on the last bit too. I think they’re put on an unrealistic pedestal, when the majority of them aren’t that special.

I think the opposite is true. There is more money lower down the table than ever before and online and other advances have led to an improvement across all squads in terms of fitness and quality. As a result even the very best players are only a tiny bit better than the cloggers now, which results in it being much more difficult to stand out, no matter how good you are.

Couple this with the easy access to data around coaching, easy sharing of new tactical ideas, ever more well drilled teams that place the team over individual brilliance, and have to, and the game in England is in many ways more even than it was ten years ago. It’s just more boring to watch as a result.

not sure if there is a decline, just find it harder to watch with no fans/atmosphere and Var, cant really celebrate goals now, for me if it dont change then might be a dramatic drop in football attendances and viewing figures. might need to go watch some games from years ago but a lot of goals now come from mistakes rather then real quality. maybe just didnt notice it as much when i was a bit younger.

In UEFA coefficients, EPL is doing quite well. If things go well, EPL will surpass La Liga during the course of the next season, which would be the first time in a decade or so.

Revan said:

In UEFA coefficients, EPL is doing quite well. If things go well, EPL will surpass La Liga during the course of the next season, which would be the first time in a decade or so.

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Yeah decline of LA liga would make more sense.

passing-wind said:

I think the standard of football is poor, the game from what I remember used to be faster teams really playing from the front foot. Even Everton under Moyes few years back were a decent attacking side to watch, but with the influx of different managerial cultures the game is lethargic, too tactical and compressed. The leagues standard outside City / Liverpool is below standard including ourselves.

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That sounds totally subjective. Mainly because players simply have to be fitter and stronger these days. To be honest, it wouldn't even surprise me if 2017-2019 City destroyed Arsenal's Invincibles 5-0, 6-0 or so.

Nani Nana said:

The European Superleague project is apparently taking shape and it would not be possible without the PL giants.

In the past weeks, I understood why. The Premier League has decreased in quality over the past few seasons, triggered by several factors:

- The departure of renowned managers (Ferguson, Wenger)
- The decrease in expenditures from wealthy owners
- Poor resource allocation

Overall, watching Chelsea yesterday with three average homegrown players in the starting 11 (Abraham, Mount and James) who would not get near the bench of Chelsea 2004-05, I noticed it is happening across the board.

MUFC have struggled to fill the leadership gap left by Ferguson. Yet MCFC have struggled in Europe and flattered to deceive for the best part of 10 years.

Liverpool performed extremely well on the continental stage and domestically, but with injuries, it looks like the cycle is over.

Generally speaking, out of the best six teams in the league, all but one are worse than ten years ago.

Have a great week

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Couldn't disagree more. The EPL is the best it's ever been, IMO. Not too long ago, there were four English teams in European cup finals and the remaining one of the top five was the champion of the league.

Meanwhile La Liga is also in the worst shape in over a decade. The EPL never had a bigger competitive edge.

Football as a whole is in decline. Think back to the number of magicians we had in the game 15-20 years ago compared to now. Players who made you jump out of your seat & think “there’s no way in hell I could ever possibly do that” just pure natural talent. We barely have any players like that any more.

Systems are killing the beautiful game. Players like Neymar who play the game the way it’s supposed to be played are vilified for “not working hard enough”

Ronaldinho would struggle to make an impact on this “work horse” era, and he’s one of the best to ever play the game.

passing-wind said:

I think the standard of football is poor, the game from what I remember used to be faster teams really playing from the front foot. Even Everton under Moyes few years back were a decent attacking side to watch, but with the influx of different managerial cultures the game is lethargic, too tactical and compressed. The leagues standard outside City / Liverpool is below standard including ourselves.

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It was faster because there was no midfield pressing. EPL games used to look almost like handball matches with players carrying the ball almost from box to box. That's obviously not possible once teams start pressing properly.

It's been in decline ever since they changed this anthem

Nani Nana said:

That was almost three years ago. The PL is declining in comparison to that period.

All those teams are worse qualitatively, and the increased quality of the bottom teams compared to 10-15 years ago (before TV rights money) does not make up for it.

Feel free to ping me if two, let alone four, English teams make the finals of European competitions this season.

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And where did all the quality go? Because it certainly didn't go into other leagues. The Serie A is trending currently, but it is still far away from the EPL. The Bundesliga is basically where it has been for the last decade, comfortably behind the EPL. La Liga is in it's worst state in years. Madrid and Barca are struggling just as seriously as United or Arsenal by their standards. And Ligue 1 is in a slightly worse position than the Bundesliga since they also have one powerhouse but no club in the Dortmund tier.

This season is hard for any top team due to the tight match program. There's no top club that isn't struggling right now. Liverpool and City aren't in a worse state than Bayern and they're certainly in a better one than Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus. Chelsea has amassed an insane amount of talent this season. United has some serious prospects, too. Liverpool and City aren't going nowhere and Tottenham also is in great form right now.

IMO, all this "the EPL is in decline" talk stems from resistance to change and nostalgia. The football in England isn't the same anymore, it has developed with time. People miss their traditional CBs, wingers and box to box midfielders but they've been extinct for even longer in the rest of Europe. Football has a new look and some people are struggling to warm up to it.

GameOn said:

Yeah, because Neuer, Kimmich, Müller, Sané, Lewandowski or Alison, Van Dijk, Thiago, Salah, Mané aren't worldclass players ...

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None of them are world class players except maybe Neuer and Lewandowski.

If these are the names of current world class players it is even more proof how bad the state of football is right now.

bosnian_red said:

It hasn't declined. It comes in waves. Premier league in the mid-late 2000's was top, then Spanish football took over for the next 5-8 years while premier league had a lull. The prem over the past 4 years though has been consistently improving, coinciding with Klopp/Pep/Mourinho coming back in the league. Thats backed up by trophies and further progression in the European competitions. Liverpool and City of the last few years are roughly on par with any of the best sides in the Premier League Era (or at least, in the conversation). The coaching, standard of players in the league, and the change in standings every year show the high level across the league, making it hard to predict. Judging it based on European performance is always a good barometer of a league quality overall though. Not fluke years, but consistent performance and progression.

This year is a weird year because of covid, it has an impact on just so many levels without fans and all that. But ignoring the covid aspect, I'd say the PL was at a bit of a peak in the wave these last couple of years. It just doesn't feel like that for United because we've still been shit throughout it.

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Completely agree. It's the covid year that has made the quality of the league seem worse, but it has happened in every major league and is not indicative of the PL quality exclusively. None of the regular bigger teams have played well this season with the large amount of games being played and fatigue, with injuries, setting in. In a normal year, City and Liverpool are still amongst the best teams in Europe. That being said, I don't think the EPL right now is as good as its peak in the mid to late 00's. At that time you'd have a good argument to say the top 4 EPL teams were the top 4 European teams.

The PL was certainly weak from 2010 to 2017, equal (or even in some cases weaker than the BL according to UEFA coefficients) and well below the La Liga. The last couple of seasons though, as you said since Pep and Klopp cemented their influence on their teams, the EPL has jumped ahead of the La Liga, as Madrid and Barca have regressed.