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2021 American Civil War
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Drainy
Full Member
She's not innocent. It's criminal trespass, but many victims of excessive police violence are accused of or are in the process of committing a crime. She should have been detained with force, but based on the video deadly force was not necessary.At what point would she be classed as a threat in your eyes?
Her, and the rest of the protesters in that corridor are clearly being told to stand back and stop rushing the barricade. What she does beggars belief. She actually continues to climb through a smashed window to help an angry mob get further into the Capitol.
At what point is deadly force allowed in these scenarios? Once the protestors have taken hostages, because it would appear they had designs on getting the anti-Trump politicians, evidenced by the rooms they occupied once in the building.
How do you know that agent/police officer didn't have numerous, genuinely innocent people behind him whom he was trying to protect?
No one wants to see people get shot, but to paint this woman as some innocent bystander in a quite obvious attempt at a coup or at best destabilising the democratic process is mind boggling.
Overall, I'm amazed that the cops showed so much restraint - I would have assumed that a forceful storming of the Capitol building while the House and Senate were in session, would have resulted in pretty much everyone involved being shot.
As it is, the one person they actually did shoot, looks not to have really warranted it at that particular moment.
As it is, the one person they actually did shoot, looks not to have really warranted it at that particular moment.
Regulus Arcturus Black
Full Member
Are they also in the process of smashing in a door, with guns drawn on it and warned to stand the feck back, through a secret service/police barricade to get to the US Senate?but many victims of excessive police violence are accused of or are in the process of committing a crime.
Deadly force was necessary.She's not innocent. It's criminal trespass, but many victims of excessive police violence are accused of or are in the process of committing a crime. She should have been detained with force, but based on the video deadly force was not necessary.
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b82REZ
Full Member
You've repeatedly referred to her as innocent.She's not innocent. It's criminal trespass, but many victims of excessive police violence are accused of or are in the process of committing a crime. She should have been detained with force, but based on the video deadly force was not necessary.
So you're telling me, at that point, with the mob already inside you expected that copper to stop, read her miranda rights and then cart her off to jail.
You're delusional.
I followed your posts and disagree. I'm taking the entire context into account, hours after finding explosives on members of the same movements, the police isn't going to be nice. And the video you responded to doesn't show a thing that you wouldn't or haven't seen in Europe in considerably less tensed contexts. So as I said I completely disagree with you, there was nothing crazy in that video in normal circumstances because we have seen it before outside of the US and it's even less crazy when we are after the invasion of the Capitol and the finding of pipe bombs.You need to follow my posts back to see the specific video I’m discussing. It was footage shot much later at night, on the streets, presumably enforcing curfew? This was separate to the extremely light touch policing in/around the Capitol earlier in the day.
Maybe it's not your intent but you seem to trivialize the context but labelling it as a mere protest.
Regulus Arcturus Black
Full Member
Of course it was, that was the line they drew that was not to be passed under any circumstance. A bomb brought in there and feck me.Deadly force was necessary.
They let her in and everyone sees the last line of defence was an idle threat, and then the masses are in, no question. That shot stopped everything, showed the mob that they meant what they were warning, that line would not be crossed.
hellhunter
Eurofighter
Could have maybe not gone for the head, but not sure such accuracy is possible for a police officer in such a situation.
mu4c_20le
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There's no telling what could have happened if she breached the chambers. The mob had entered the building pretty much unchallenged, imagine if they started pouring in there with only 4 cops in the room to protect everyone and restore order. The shot was brutal, and I have sympathy for the woman, but it was the only thing that finally stopped the mob.Overall, I'm amazed that the cops showed so much restraint - I would have assumed that a forceful storming of the Capitol building while the House and Senate were in session, would have resulted in pretty much everyone involved being shot.
As it is, the one person they actually did shoot, looks not to have really warranted it at that particular moment.
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If I was the 5 men barricading a single door from a rioting mob with guns who had breached the Capitol building I would simply just detain the entire mob with force.She's not innocent. It's criminal trespass, but many victims of excessive police violence are accused of or are in the process of committing a crime. She should have been detained with force, but based on the video deadly force was not necessary.
Beachryan
More helpful with spreadsheets than Phurry
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The thing that hurts most about what Joy Reid says is that in a normal world, this reaction by the police would be what we'd expect. If I went crazy and stormed the Bermudian senate, I wouldn't expect to be shot, just arrested and gently ushered into psychiatric servcices. That's how police should react. She's right, the police do work for the people, the building does belong to them.
But because of how those very same police react and treat Black Americans, the contrast is almost to the point where one desires them to be punished in the same way. Which is really f*cking horrible. You see the footage of thoes poor disabled folks being forcibly removed a few years ago and contrast to the smiling insurrectionists being gently ushered out and it galls.
But in a better world than America, none of this should turn violent.
But because of how those very same police react and treat Black Americans, the contrast is almost to the point where one desires them to be punished in the same way. Which is really f*cking horrible. You see the footage of thoes poor disabled folks being forcibly removed a few years ago and contrast to the smiling insurrectionists being gently ushered out and it galls.
But in a better world than America, none of this should turn violent.
b82REZ
Full Member
Didn't the bullet hit her in the neck, near the shoulder? I've seen another video where she's pointing to where she was hit and the protestors try and stem the bleeding.Could have maybe not gone for the head, but not sure such accuracy is possible for a police officer in such a situation.
Personally I think the agent was aiming to incapacitate her by shooting in the shoulder, unfortunately the margin of error when using a firearm is nil.
Regulus Arcturus Black
Full Member
But it was one "woman".If I was the 5 men barricading a single door from a rioting mob with guns who had breached the Capitol building I would simply just detain the entire mob with force.
Hilarious how Drainy just ignores the rest of the mob that were unquestionably going in after her until the shot.
balaks
Full Member
How would you simply just do that?If I was the 5 men barricading a single door from a rioting mob with guns who had breached the Capitol building I would simply just detain the entire mob with force.
BD
technologically challenged barbie doll
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'Detain her with force', how? Let her through the barricade and then arrest her? And what of the rest of the 'protestors' who would've poured in directly after her. I don't think you're genuinely thinking about the situation.She's not innocent. It's criminal trespass, but many victims of excessive police violence are accused of or are in the process of committing a crime. She should have been detained with force, but based on the video deadly force was not necessary.
hellhunter
Eurofighter
If so then that's perfectly fine by the agent in my book.Didn't the bullet hit her in the neck, near the shoulder? I've seen another video where she's pointing to where she was hit and the protestors try and stem the bleeding.
Personally I think the agent was aiming to incapacitate her by shooting in the shoulder, unfortunately the margin of error when using a firearm is nil.
Drainy
Full Member
That's not how it was happening though.If I was the 5 men barricading a single door from a rioting mob with guns who had breached the Capitol building I would simply just detain the entire mob with force.
The barricade was creating a bottleneck so one person at a time would be coming through (even though she was only standing on the barricade at the time, no doubt she would be coming through) but she would be vulnerable and able to be physically detained and arrested or beaten back.
Regulus Arcturus Black
Full Member
Ridiculous post, if she was alone, that's exactly what would've happened.The thing that hurts most about what Joy Reid says is that in a normal world, this reaction by the police would be what we'd expect. If I went crazy and stormed the Bermudian senate, I wouldn't expect to be shot, just arrested and gently ushered into psychiatric servcices. That's how police should react. She's right, the police do work for the people, the building does belong to them.
But because of how those very same police react and treat Black Americans, the contrast is almost to the point where one desires them to be punished in the same way. Which is really f*cking horrible. You see the footage of thoes poor disabled folks being forcibly removed a few years ago and contrast to the smiling insurrectionists being gently ushered out and it galls.
But in a better world than America, none of this should turn violent.
If you and a massive mob breached the Bermudian senate, they'd be a line where you 100% would be shot, same in Westminster, no doubt.
Bobcat
Full Member
True, the problem in the US is that the right wing over there have successfully managed to convince (manipulate) 2-3 generations of working class people that they are in their corner. They truly believe in the whole trickle down nonsense and think that if the billionaires get enough tax breaks, then sooner or later the riches will rain down upon them as well. It does not matter that the wealth gap keeps increasing. In their world "taxes = bad". A sizable portion of the population is also convinced that labor unions is basically communism and all they want to do is feck them over and steal their wages. Regan is still viewed as the "best" president they've had, but he really did irrecoverable damage to themThe problem is that an organized 10% of population can successfully seize the power. Trumpists number is much higher than 10% and it is very alarming.
The fact I’d like to highlight is that all these stupid conspiracy trends arise when the ruling elite fails to meet population expectations. It is a mass psychology phenomenon which dates back to ancient Chinese history. Communists, Hitler, Chavez, etc. The rise of populists always means the that political system is failing. Trump is a product of DC politics.
Then you have millions upon millions of single issue voters. The 2nd amendment nutters and pro-life people will vote republican no matter what and i think its safe to say that Trumpism have radicalized a fair amount of them.
Lastly the way they have perverted Christianity over there is just absurd. Concern for the poor and the oppressed was perverted into a view where God showered believers with material wealth and power. Imperialism and war became divine instruments for purging the world of infidels and barbarians. All their war crimes the last 50 years or so have been done under a veneer of righteousness . Because God blessed the righteous with wealth and power and condemned the immoral to poverty and suffering, became shorn of its inherent cruelty and exploitation. The iconography and symbols of American nationalism became intertwined with the iconography and symbols of the Christian faith. Thats why you see shite like multi-millionaire TV-pastors who con 80 year old cancer patients of their last dollars and no one bats an eye. You have millions and millions of people in the rust belt who really are victims of neoliberalism and deindutrialization, who are wholly convinced its "the immigrants" whos at fault for their misery.
I mean, you would be hard pressed to find a less devout and more immoral man than Trump, as hes really the embodiment of the seven deadly sins, but since hes rich hes seen as some kind of beacon of virtue. While Europe has grown more secular at a steady pace, a large portion of Americans have become more religious, and religious in a really fecked up way. If you have a Venn-diagram of american evangelicals and fascist its going to look like a new moon
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That's the joke mate.How would you simply just do that?
Drainy
Full Member
It's literally a bottleneck in progression into the building'Detain her with force', how? Let her through the barricade and then arrest her? And what of the rest of the 'protestors' who would've poured in directly after her. I don't think you're genuinely thinking about the situation.
balaks
Full Member
Woosh that's it going right over my head - whoopsThat's the joke mate.
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Ah yes detain them one by one as they politely come through the window. I see. Where do those guards keep the giant bucket of handcuffs then?That's not how it was happening though.
The barricade was creating a bottleneck so one person at a time would be coming through (even though she was only standing on the barricade at the time, no doubt she would be coming through) but she would be vulnerable and able to be physically detained and arrested or beaten back.
The Purley King
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Trump and his team were definitely complicit in this.My theory on this is that feet on the floor was left intentionally light and was probably a selection of Trump sycophants who knew what was coming. It was only when the security were deployed by external actors the force increased.
Remember that it was one of the most critical days in the American democracy calendar with all of congress present yet somehow they didn't have enough police present and intelligence somehow missed thousands of angry rednecks organising a protest?
The whole thing was by design, it might sound like a conspiracy but it’s Occam‘s razor. I’d love for someone to come up with a better explanation as to why they were so understaffed, underprepared, so slow to react and so accommodating when there was so much at stake.
Could you imagine the Houses of Parliament being over run like that?
Biggest day in US politics for a while, tensions running massively high and the combined surveillance, CCTV, police on the ground, all missed a big angry mob. Security proceeded to allow said mob into the building.
I mean wtf.
You didn't answer his question. What about the rest who were right behind here and no doubt would follow her in? Just detain them too?It's literally a bottleneck in progression into the building
Regulus Arcturus Black
Full Member
2 police officers initiate an arrest, what's happening to the door then as 3, 4, 5 people come after her. How quickly can the cops arrest them?That's not how it was happening though.
The barricade was creating a bottleneck so one person at a time would be coming through (even though she was only standing on the barricade at the time, no doubt she would be coming through) but she would be vulnerable and able to be physically detained and arrested or beaten back.
As all of the cops in that corridor now are initiating arrests, who is guarding the door?
Are you actually using your brain here?
2mufc0
Everything is fair game in capitalism!
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Could you imagine if she got through what the rest of the mob would have done? As far as I know that was pretty much the last door before they could get to the politicians? Extreme stupidity on her part and in these specific circumstances I'm not surprised she got shot.
If you did it alone just for shits and giggles, sure. These were 10 000+ terrorists who wanted to overthrow the government. They brought 2 bombs.The thing that hurts most about what Joy Reid says is that in a normal world, this reaction by the police would be what we'd expect. If I went crazy and stormed the Bermudian senate, I wouldn't expect to be shot, just arrested and gently ushered into psychiatric servcices. That's how police should react. She's right, the police do work for the people, the building does belong to them.
But because of how those very same police react and treat Black Americans, the contrast is almost to the point where one desires them to be punished in the same way. Which is really f*cking horrible. You see the footage of thoes poor disabled folks being forcibly removed a few years ago and contrast to the smiling insurrectionists being gently ushered out and it galls.
But in a better world than America, none of this should turn violent.
sullydnl
Ross Kemp's caf ID
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There are many situations in which a person with visible hands can be deemed a threat. Being part of a mob attempting to break through an armed and guarded no cross line in the US Capitol building being just one of them. Because the threat isn't her, it's the entire mob who outnumber you and what they will do if you let them get through. The same mob who earlier sent out pipe bombs to their political enemies and have now breached the building where their political enemies are sheltering.Because her hands were clearly visible on the video.
The criticism should be that they were allowed to reach that point with such apparent ease.
b82REZ
Full Member
These people need to look at how the British police handled the Westminster terror attacks a few years a go.Ridiculous post, if she was alone, that's exactly what would've happened.
If you and a massive mob breached the Bermudian senate, they'd be a line where you 100% would be shot, same in Westminster, no doubt.
Don't remember too many people condemning the police officers who shot and killed those terrorists. And make no mistake these "protestors" are terrorists.
BD
technologically challenged barbie doll
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So let her through and arrest her. And while you're at that, all the nice protestors will wait patiently until you're done with her, and then they'll continue one by one, as you arrest each one individually?It's literally a bottleneck in progression into the building
Ananke
Full Member
To be fair mate, have you seen the moment the mob overpowered authorities on the outside? They stood back, then when people started running at the building, they attempted to push them back, failed because they were vastly understaffed.Was she a threat to anyone at the moment she was shot? Could she have been removed without being shot?
If you know that she wasn't a real threat and a lesser amount of force could be used ask yourself why is it acceptable to use deadly force.
You can talk all day about 'whatifs' etc. The facts we know:
- The mob knew it was unlawful to enter that building. They did it anyway.
- The mob knew it was unlawful to damage property. They did it anyway
- The mob knew it was unlawful to attack authorities. They did it anyway.
They continued onwards to break the law. All that was happening was an escalation. Continuing to allow that mob deeper into the chambers, what's next? A violent attack on a member of government? If that police officer/authority figure goes and pushes that woman back through the window, they push back, and they outnumber them 10x over. That's exactly what was happening the whole time and why they got so far in. Because they were ignoring the 'Stay back or we'll shoot' threat, it was an empty threat to the mob. Peoples life were in danger, and the whole situation was snowballing. The moment the trigger was actually pulled, it was a wake up call to those people.
"Oh shit, they actually will shoot".
hellhunter
Eurofighter
Like in the movies, where the gang of villains is politely attacking the hero one after another, of course.So let her through and arrest her. And while you're at that, all the nice protestors will wait patiently until you're done with her, and then they'll continue one by one, as you arrest each one individually?
I'm sure the very gentle people would have climbed over the barricade, wrists held out ready to be arrested, and then very quickly and quietly sat down to the side to allow the police to then immediately repeat the same on the next non-threating individual. Then once every protestor/criminal/terrorist have been detained then will all start applauding the five fine gentlemen for their efforts.Ah yes detain them one by one as they politely come through the window. I see. Where do those guards keep the giant bucket of handcuffs then?
The woman probably lived in her own reality. One in which she was doing the right thing. The people entering the building are incredibly good at blending out facts and common sense. She probably didn't even realize how serious their offense was and how dangerous the situation she got herself into was.
However, this is almost the definition of self-inflicted. There's absolutely zero basis to criticize the officer who shot her. This isn't some George Floyd story, she brought this upon herself. That she didn't understand she was on the edge of becoming a martyr is a testament how far those people have distanced themselves from reality and how invincible they feel when gathered in masses.
I fear all this will escalate and then it becomes very ugly. They don't really get what civil war and fighting against the military looks like.
However, this is almost the definition of self-inflicted. There's absolutely zero basis to criticize the officer who shot her. This isn't some George Floyd story, she brought this upon herself. That she didn't understand she was on the edge of becoming a martyr is a testament how far those people have distanced themselves from reality and how invincible they feel when gathered in masses.
I fear all this will escalate and then it becomes very ugly. They don't really get what civil war and fighting against the military looks like.
Of course I don't understand your point, if I did I wouldn't disagree. You didn't explain your point and simply assumed that I didn't follow your posts.You either can’t or won’t understand my point. Something I’ve noticed you do before. So no point carrying this tangent on.
Let me ask you three questions. Is there anything in that video that you have never seen before outside of the US? Do you think that what happened earlier that day by the same movement will influence how law enforcements will act? Do you think that we are talking about a regular protest, regular protesters?
PS: I like you as a poster, I don't want this to be anything else than a disagreement on a specific point.
Giant Midget
Aka - rooney_10119
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That's not true, Americans are getting less religious with each generation. SourceTrue, the problem in the US is that the right wing over there have successfully managed to convince (manipulate) 2-3 generations of working class people that they are in their corner. They truly believe in the whole trickle down nonsense and think that if the billionaires get enough tax breaks, then sooner or later the riches will rain down upon them as well. It does not matter that the wealth gap keeps increasing. In their world "taxes = bad". A sizable portion of the population is also convinced that labor unions is basically communism and all they want to do is feck them over and steal their wages. Regan is still viewed as the "best" president they've had, but he really did irrecoverable damage to them
Then you have millions upon millions of single issue voters. The 2nd amendment nutters and pro-life people will vote republican no matter what and i think its safe to say that Trumpism have radicalized a fair amount of them.
Lastly the way they have perverted Christianity over there is just absurd. Concern for the poor and the oppressed was perverted into a view where God showered believers with material wealth and power. Imperialism and war became divine instruments for purging the world of infidels and barbarians. All their war crimes the last 50 years or so have been done under a veneer of righteousness . Because God blessed the righteous with wealth and power and condemned the immoral to poverty and suffering, became shorn of its inherent cruelty and exploitation. The iconography and symbols of American nationalism became intertwined with the iconography and symbols of the Christian faith. Thats why you see shite like multi-millionaire TV-pastors who con 80 year old cancer patients of their last dollars and no one bats an eye. You have millions and millions of people in the rust belt who really are victims of neoliberalism and deindutrialization, who are wholly convinced its "the immigrants" whos at fault for their misery.
I mean, you would be hard pressed to find a less devout and more immoral man than Trump, as hes really the embodiment of the seven deadly sins, but since hes rich hes seen as some kind of beacon of virtue. While Europe has grown more secular at a steady pace, a large portion of Americans have become more religious, and religious in a really fecked up way. If you have a Venn-diagram of american evangelicals and fascist its going to look like a new moon
Drainy
Full Member
Physically beat is better than shooting dead and look what happened when they became physical, the invaders were beaten back.So let her through and arrest her. And while you're at that, all the nice protestors will wait patiently until you're done with her, and then they'll continue one by one, as you arrest each one individually?
Obviously I'm sitting at home judging the interaction but I would rather the police valued life rather than justifying deaths with 'they were a criminal and maybe a threat to their life because of uncertainty'