SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Wibble

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We thought so at the time but it doesn’t look great when you see what’s going on in South Africa and how Australia’s struggling to contain outbreaks.
NSW is slowly moping up that last outbreak that totals just over 200 cases I think. They have taken a deliberate decision not to lock down hard based mainly on political considerations (Liberal premier getting pressure from the Liberal Federals government) which is a bit disappointing if not unexpected. They seem to have got away with so far but we still have a few cases of community transmission each day and worryingly they don't always have the full infection chain even when they genomically link cases to an existing cluster. Fingers crossed we can stamp this one out and keep it that way until the vaccine rollout starts.

The worry is Qld where a cleaner from a quarantine hotel and her husband got the UK variant. No further spread has been detected from the cleaner so far, although we need more time to be sure. However, there was spread of the UK variant between people on one floor of that quarantine hotel and to try to ensure it doesn't spread into the community they have brought hundreds of people back into quarantine and or/ kept people in quarantine for a further 14 days, in case the new variant is significantly more infectious.

Edit: Zero new cases on community infection today. The worry is that cases are circulating in suburbs were people are less likely to get tested - referred to as multicultiral areas in the news, as opposed to the Northern Beaches where the latest outbreak started (the other white meat) where over 40% of the entire population were tested in about a week (but the deaths from melanoma after they had to brave the midday sun are as yet unknown).
 
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Mr Pigeon

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We thought so at the time but it doesn’t look great when you see what’s going on in South Africa and how Australia’s struggling to contain outbreaks.
My dad lives in Australia and was talking about how their quiet little part of the Sunshine coast was invaded by folk from Brisbane just before their lockdown came into effect. He couldn't believe how many folk were showing up. Absolute cockwombles.
 

WI_Red

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Well feck me. My test came back negative. Somehow, in the middle of a fecking pandemic, living in the same house with my wife who has it, while quarantining, I have managed to pick up some other nasty, non-COVID bug but avoid COVID. How 2020 of me.
 

tombombadil

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Perfectly captures my thoughts on how so many countries are dealing with this

What's as scary as Covid? The fact our leaders still have no plan to control it
Almost a year into the pandemic, the UK is trapped in a cycle of lockdown and relaxation, without an exit strategy

Here’s the chilling, remarkable thing that should be inscribed on everyone’s minds: there is no plan. This week, I asked the government’s Cabinet Office three simple questions. What are the objectives of the current lockdown? What are the criteria for deciding when it should be lifted? What are the criteria for imposing other restrictions following this lockdown? It had no answers.

All it could offer was a paragraph of waffle from the prime minister’s latest press conference, in which he appeared to suggest that he might relax some measures when the most vulnerable groups have been vaccinated.

A government with any level of competence would have explained from the outset where we need to be before it lifts this lockdown. It might have stated what the R number should be; what the number of positive cases should be; how great a reduction in Covid hospital patient numbers there should be. It would have committed not to end the lockdown until such conditions have been met.

It would also have published a plan for tightening restrictions if conditions worsen, and its criteria for graded restrictions when lockdown ends. But no such statements have been published. We’ve had 11 months of this, and the government is still flying blind.

Without clear objectives, without a plan, we are likely to remain trapped in a perpetual cycle of emergency followed by suppression, followed by relaxation, followed by emergency. Boris Johnson will continue to chase short-term popularity by lifting restrictions as soon as he thinks he can; the government, constantly surprised by events, will keep responding with reactive, disconnected policies; and the nightmare will continue.


As many scientists and doctors have pointed out, vaccination can be only part of the answer. Immunising the most vulnerable people will reduce the death rate, but if the disease continues to rage through the rest of the population, the consequences will still be terrible. The prospect of very large numbers of people – tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands – being afflicted by long Covid should horrify any government concerned about the welfare of its citizens.

I have heard Covid-19 described as “a mass disabling event”. Given the numbers who continue to suffer grave effects several months after mild infection, and the high proportion of survivors of severe infection who show long-term symptoms, this could, unfortunately, be accurate. Other measures will be required for many months, perhaps years.

From the outset, the government has tried to persuade us that there’s a trade-off between protecting public health and protecting our social and economic lives. But there is no trade-off. The UK is currently afflicted by the world’s third-highest death rate over the past seven days (after the Czech Republic and Lithuania), accompanied by the social and economic catastrophe of a third lockdown. This is world-beating incompetence; failure on an epic scale. Yet somehow we appear to have normalised it.

So part of the plan would mean acknowledging that a radically different approach is needed. This would begin with a commitment to put public health ahead of profit. Every week brings a new scandal, as the government shows a generosity towards profit-seeking corporations that’s not extended to the rest of the population. The latest involves claims that a £30 free-school-meal pack supplied by a private contractor, contains food that could have been bought for £5.22. Others involve vast untendered contracts for protective equipment, preferentially awarded to those with political connections through a “VIP channel”; and the disastrous privatisation and outsourcing of our test-and-trace system.

This is the crucial issue. Without an effective test, trace, isolate and support system, we will be stuck in the cycle of infection indefinitely. But if you get the system right, you free the nation from both uncontrolled disease and lockdowns. This is the lesson from Taiwan, a country with twice our population density, that has lost just seven people to Covid-19 without ever locking down. It developed its system with the help of participatory democracy, ensuring there was a high level of public consent and engagement; put professionals in charge at every stage; and provides generous support and daily contact for people who have had to isolate.


By contrast, our system has been a fiasco. England’s system has so far cost £22bn. For all the good it has done, this money might as well have been stacked and burned. The government put dilettantes in charge, and handed key tasks to corporations with a terrible track record of delivery. As I revealed in October, teenage call-centre workers on the minimum wage were given crucial tracing jobs that had previously been reserved for health professionals.

As the Independent Sage science group explains, we won’t get a grip on the pandemic until we replace this farce with a system led by the NHS, locally run by public health professionals, in which everyone who is asked to isolate is given all the necessary financial and social help and, if required, free accommodation. Yet the government has so far refused even to acknowledge the failure of this system, let alone produce a plan for replacing it.

Similarly, it needs to make lockdown easier for everyone. Among other incentives, this means extending furlough payments to the excluded 3 million: the self-employed workers facing economic disaster when they abide by the rules and stay at home.

The government could have used the first two lockdowns and the school holidays to carry out an emergency refurbishment programme in schools, fitting them with ventilation, filtering and heat exchanger systems and windows that open; setting up Nightingale classrooms in unused entertainment venues, and hiring new teaching assistants to reduce class sizes and allow sufficient distancing. Astonishingly, it did nothing except rebuff the desperate pleas of headteachers: not a single penny was provided for school refurbishment. Still the government fails to act: it plans no programme of works. Schools, when they fully reopen, will once again become incubators of infection.

The government failed to get a grip on the pandemic in other institutions, such as immigration detention centres. It has inexplicably abandoned its commitment, during the first lockdown, to find safe accommodation for all homeless people. If anything, we are going backwards.

Those who run this country have been instructing us for years that the government should get out of the way, ceding its powers to an abstraction they call the market. Governing well is, to them, almost a form of sacrilege. The state should be timid, shrivelled, incapable.

Faced with a national emergency, led by a man whose first instinct is to dump responsibility and transfer blame to others, they lurch from error to error, turning every crisis into catastrophe. And even now, almost a year into the pandemic yet still without a plan, the government ensures that our suffering will once again be in vain.



https://www.theguardian.com/comment...vid-leaders-no-plan-to-control-pandemic-cycle
 

Wibble

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Perfectly captures my thoughts on how so many countries are dealing with this

What's as scary as Covid? The fact our leaders still have no plan to control it
Almost a year into the pandemic, the UK is trapped in a cycle of lockdown and relaxation, without an exit strategy

Here’s the chilling, remarkable thing that should be inscribed on everyone’s minds: there is no plan. This week, I asked the government’s Cabinet Office three simple questions. What are the objectives of the current lockdown? What are the criteria for deciding when it should be lifted? What are the criteria for imposing other restrictions following this lockdown? It had no answers.

All it could offer was a paragraph of waffle from the prime minister’s latest press conference, in which he appeared to suggest that he might relax some measures when the most vulnerable groups have been vaccinated.

A government with any level of competence would have explained from the outset where we need to be before it lifts this lockdown. It might have stated what the R number should be; what the number of positive cases should be; how great a reduction in Covid hospital patient numbers there should be. It would have committed not to end the lockdown until such conditions have been met.

It would also have published a plan for tightening restrictions if conditions worsen, and its criteria for graded restrictions when lockdown ends. But no such statements have been published. We’ve had 11 months of this, and the government is still flying blind.

Without clear objectives, without a plan, we are likely to remain trapped in a perpetual cycle of emergency followed by suppression, followed by relaxation, followed by emergency. Boris Johnson will continue to chase short-term popularity by lifting restrictions as soon as he thinks he can; the government, constantly surprised by events, will keep responding with reactive, disconnected policies; and the nightmare will continue.


As many scientists and doctors have pointed out, vaccination can be only part of the answer. Immunising the most vulnerable people will reduce the death rate, but if the disease continues to rage through the rest of the population, the consequences will still be terrible. The prospect of very large numbers of people – tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands – being afflicted by long Covid should horrify any government concerned about the welfare of its citizens.

I have heard Covid-19 described as “a mass disabling event”. Given the numbers who continue to suffer grave effects several months after mild infection, and the high proportion of survivors of severe infection who show long-term symptoms, this could, unfortunately, be accurate. Other measures will be required for many months, perhaps years.

From the outset, the government has tried to persuade us that there’s a trade-off between protecting public health and protecting our social and economic lives. But there is no trade-off. The UK is currently afflicted by the world’s third-highest death rate over the past seven days (after the Czech Republic and Lithuania), accompanied by the social and economic catastrophe of a third lockdown. This is world-beating incompetence; failure on an epic scale. Yet somehow we appear to have normalised it.

So part of the plan would mean acknowledging that a radically different approach is needed. This would begin with a commitment to put public health ahead of profit. Every week brings a new scandal, as the government shows a generosity towards profit-seeking corporations that’s not extended to the rest of the population. The latest involves claims that a £30 free-school-meal pack supplied by a private contractor, contains food that could have been bought for £5.22. Others involve vast untendered contracts for protective equipment, preferentially awarded to those with political connections through a “VIP channel”; and the disastrous privatisation and outsourcing of our test-and-trace system.

This is the crucial issue. Without an effective test, trace, isolate and support system, we will be stuck in the cycle of infection indefinitely. But if you get the system right, you free the nation from both uncontrolled disease and lockdowns. This is the lesson from Taiwan, a country with twice our population density, that has lost just seven people to Covid-19 without ever locking down. It developed its system with the help of participatory democracy, ensuring there was a high level of public consent and engagement; put professionals in charge at every stage; and provides generous support and daily contact for people who have had to isolate.


By contrast, our system has been a fiasco. England’s system has so far cost £22bn. For all the good it has done, this money might as well have been stacked and burned. The government put dilettantes in charge, and handed key tasks to corporations with a terrible track record of delivery. As I revealed in October, teenage call-centre workers on the minimum wage were given crucial tracing jobs that had previously been reserved for health professionals.

As the Independent Sage science group explains, we won’t get a grip on the pandemic until we replace this farce with a system led by the NHS, locally run by public health professionals, in which everyone who is asked to isolate is given all the necessary financial and social help and, if required, free accommodation. Yet the government has so far refused even to acknowledge the failure of this system, let alone produce a plan for replacing it.

Similarly, it needs to make lockdown easier for everyone. Among other incentives, this means extending furlough payments to the excluded 3 million: the self-employed workers facing economic disaster when they abide by the rules and stay at home.

The government could have used the first two lockdowns and the school holidays to carry out an emergency refurbishment programme in schools, fitting them with ventilation, filtering and heat exchanger systems and windows that open; setting up Nightingale classrooms in unused entertainment venues, and hiring new teaching assistants to reduce class sizes and allow sufficient distancing. Astonishingly, it did nothing except rebuff the desperate pleas of headteachers: not a single penny was provided for school refurbishment. Still the government fails to act: it plans no programme of works. Schools, when they fully reopen, will once again become incubators of infection.

The government failed to get a grip on the pandemic in other institutions, such as immigration detention centres. It has inexplicably abandoned its commitment, during the first lockdown, to find safe accommodation for all homeless people. If anything, we are going backwards.

Those who run this country have been instructing us for years that the government should get out of the way, ceding its powers to an abstraction they call the market. Governing well is, to them, almost a form of sacrilege. The state should be timid, shrivelled, incapable.

Faced with a national emergency, led by a man whose first instinct is to dump responsibility and transfer blame to others, they lurch from error to error, turning every crisis into catastrophe. And even now, almost a year into the pandemic yet still without a plan, the government ensures that our suffering will once again be in vain.



https://www.theguardian.com/comment...vid-leaders-no-plan-to-control-pandemic-cycle
Maybe it is a plan to be so shit at a response to covid that people are distracted from the shit-show that is Brexit?

Or this is Boris's internal though process.

 

tombombadil

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Maybe it is a plan to be so shit at a response to covid that people are distracted from the shit-show that is Brexit?

Or this is Boris's internal though process.

Well if it looks like Boris and sounds like Boris ... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol:
but she still has it :(
Damn. Is there no light at the end of the tunnel? Take care. Hope she gets well soon.
 

WI_Red

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Well if it looks like Boris and sounds like Boris ... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Damn. Is there no light at the end of the tunnel? Take care. Hope she gets well soon.
Thanks again. Still symptomatic, but getting better. She's in much better shape than my lazy ass (woman usually are), so we were never really worried.
 

Penna

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Why are they increasing restrictions in Italy/France? Are the numbers not going in the right direction?
Conte has said there is the danger of a third wave, with an eye on what's happening in the UK. To be fair, in yellow regions like the one we live in (the lowest tier at the moment), you can still leave your comune and travel within your region, and the region is pretty large. The Christmas/New Year restrictions were severe, which is I assume why our cases are lower.

We can virtually live as we were doing before Covid (with masks), but that's because we don't go out in the evenings anyway. However, younger adults would normally be out and about at night.
 

McGrathsipan

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What do you all make of these reports this morning that immunity may only last 5 months?

If thats the case, will there ever be an end to this? Is this the beginning of the end for humanity? :lol:
It really would be.
 

Pogue Mahone

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No other country seems to have a problem with it.
Uks sick pay is 95 pw that's why.
Almost every other country is also in the shit though. Having to lock down hard to try and stop their hospitals going under. So the factors behind rampant community spread are a) not unique to the uk and b) more complex than sick pay.
 

Pogue Mahone

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What do you all make of these reports this morning that immunity may only last 5 months?

If thats the case, will there ever be an end to this? Is this the beginning of the end for humanity? :lol:
The study in the news today found immunity lasted “at least” 20 weeks. They couldn’t prove it lasted any longer because the study was only 20 weeks long.
 

arnie_ni

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Almost every other country is also in the shit though. Having to lock down hard to try and stop their hospitals going under. So the factors behind rampant community spread are a) not unique to the uk and b) more complex than sick pay.
enhanced payment of 350 euro a week in Ireland is a massive differential when compared to 95 stg

My wife has been of with an unrelated illness and I'm lucky enough to have savings but I can fully understand how it can devastate families when I'm seeing them dwindle away.

I personally know loads of people not using the app for this very reason, they can't afford to be of work.

It has to play some part in spread.
 

Pogue Mahone

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enhanced payment of 350 euro a week in Ireland is a massive differential when compared to 95 stg

My wife has been of with an unrelated illness and I'm lucky enough to have savings but I can fully understand how it can devastate families when I'm seeing them dwindle away.

I personally know loads of people not using the app for this very reason, they can't afford to be of work.

It has to play some part in spread.
That’s exactly my point. I’m glad we have better sick pay than the UK during the pandemic because that’s the moral/compassionate thing to do. But we experienced the exact same horrendous recent surge as them. Which shows that people aren’t just failing to self isolate because they can’t afford to.

Anyway, based on what we know now about how the virus can be spread before any symptoms I’m not even sure sick people not self isolating is a big driver. The single biggest factor is the number of close contacts each one of us has, day to day, whether or not we’re sick or know we’ve been exposed. The UK and Ireland both got this badly wrong in the run up to Christmas and are both paying the price now. With the poxy UK variant making a bad situation much worse.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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Honestly that's terrible reporting and not even news worthy really then. I woke up to messages from family saying it had been on the BBC. More scaremongering.
Didn’t see those headlines. Not great if they were as misleading as you say. They did find that not everyone had 5 months immunity, mind you. And there were quite a few reinfections during the time period studied. So you can see how journalists might put a negative spin on it.
 

Smores

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I thought bi-annual jabs were the commonly assumed position anyway? At least for the at risk who will get whatever is needed.

I do wonder what the future will look like for everyone else though. If the vaccines don't stop spread then are we in a situation of yearly jabs for all being the new normal? Or just an acceptance that some will get hospitalised.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I thought bi-annual jabs were the commonly assumed position anyway? At least for the at risk who will get whatever is needed.

I do wonder what the future will look like for everyone else though. If the vaccines don't stop spread then are we in a situation of yearly jabs for all being the new normal? Or just an acceptance that some will get hospitalised.
I’d be very surprised (and pleased) if we don’t all need yearly jabs from now on. I just hope yearly is frequent enough.

I’ve been getting a yearly flu jab (get it free with work) for ages now. It’s not much of an inconvenience tbh.
 

Mb194dc

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What do you all make of these reports this morning that immunity may only last 5 months?

If thats the case, will there ever be an end to this? Is this the beginning of the end for humanity? :lol:
How long does immunity to Influenza last? Influenza also continually evolves which is why we have different vaccines for it every year, see what happened with H3N2 over time.

SARS-CoV-2 can be similar, we don't know yet though we'll have a much better idea by the end of this year.
 

Simbo

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What do you all make of these reports this morning that immunity may only last 5 months?

If thats the case, will there ever be an end to this? Is this the beginning of the end for humanity? :lol:
No solid data on it so not much to make of it.
 

Smores

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I’d be very surprised (and pleased) if we don’t all need yearly jabs from now on. I just hope yearly is frequent enough.

I’ve been getting a yearly flu jab (get it free with work) for ages now. It’s not much of an inconvenience tbh.
Yeah we can get it free through a work voucher but you would assume government funding for this scale. Take up is so low on flu jabs that this will be in a whole different ball park.

Obviously this past year has been rather dystopian itself but moving to a reality where globally people need annual jabs to avoid wide societal harm. It's a shift.
 

SinNombre

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I’d be very surprised (and pleased) if we don’t all need yearly jabs from now on. I just hope yearly is frequent enough.

I’ve been getting a yearly flu jab (get it free with work) for ages now. It’s not much of an inconvenience tbh.
The other aspect to this is therapeutics will continue to improve over time (and it already has with mortality rates for serious infections halved since the start of the pandemic)

In a decade, we will likely get to a point where it will just be a flu but in the meantime, we won't return to full normalcy and everyone will have to take a call on what is reasonable for them.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Yeah we can get it free through a work voucher but you would assume government funding for this scale. Take up is so low on flu jabs that this will be in a whole different ball park.

Obviously this past year has been rather dystopian itself but moving to a reality where globally people need annual jabs to avoid wide societal harm. It's a shift.
Yeah, big time. This fecking thing will change the way we live forever. I’m sure about that. It sucks but there you go. The way we live has never remained constant.
 

redshaw

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Very quiet on the roads today, seems like the telling off by Patel may have had some effect.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The lockdown - it is so hard

No easy answers though, right?

Essential workers are exactly that. Workers who need to be physically present at their jobs every day or society starts to fall apart. We run out of food or our amenities and hospitals start to fail. And these workers have to travel to/from work every day. In a massive city like London even a small % of the workforce needing to travel will cause crowds like this. Especially with a reduced tube service.

The absence of suits is good because people who wear suits to do their job should be able to work remotely. No excuses. It sucks that many essential workers are doing low paid jobs but how do you fix that?

EDIT: Maybe they should be paid more money for the increased risk of doing their jobs during a pandemic? I could get behind that. Wouldn’t make the tubes any less crowded though.
 
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lynchie

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No easy answers though, right?

Essential workers are exactly that. Workers who need to be physically present at their jobs every day or society starts to fall apart. We run out of food or our amenities and hospitals start to fail. And these workers have to travel to/from work every day. In a massive city like London even a small % of the workforce needing to travel will cause crowds like this. Especially with a reduced tube service.

The absence of suits is good because people who wear suits to do their job should be able to work remotely. No excuses. It sucks that many essential workers are doing low paid jobs but how do you fix that?
The definition of "essential" has been widened to "anyone who's boss wants them in the office/on site" though, so this is inevitable. There's plenty of jobs going on that wouldn't cause society to fall apart if they were not done, or done from home, but there's no political will to enforce it or pay for people to not work for a bit.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The definition of "essential" has been widened to "anyone who's boss wants them in the office/on site" though, so this is inevitable. There's plenty of jobs going on that wouldn't cause society to fall apart if they were not done, or done from home, but there's no political will to enforce it or pay for people to not work for a bit.
Then the definition of “essential” needs to be clear, I agree. In Ireland we’re working off an actual list. There are people in my company who fit the criteria and they have to carry around a letter from HR to show to police if they’re stopped. Is that not the case in the UK?