McTominay is the key!

Siorac

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I’ll take your questions/assertions one by one.

My credentials for saying he ‘unimpressed his way through the academy’ are no different to yours if you said Lingard has unimpressed in the first team. A set of eyes. I not only watched him in the academy, but have watched the academy for more than enough years to be able to assess which players were considered impressive and future first teamers. Scott McTominay was not considered one of them by most youth football watchers. When he was brought into the squad, it was much to the confusion of most fans. The same fans that told people to lay off him, as he was clearly ‘being used as a pawn’ by Mourinho to make some point to either his board, or apparently some sort of point to Paul Pogba.

The definition of ‘quality’ is complicated. In the particular case of Scott McTominay, I believe he has more qualitIES than he has qualitY. Quality is intangible, but it is what separates teams at the top level. The most dangerous aspect of analysing a players level of quality is that a lack of it doesn’t necessarily mean that the player does something ‘wrong’. For example, Paul Pogba coming back against Watford and playing a ridiculous pass to split the team within minutes is a moment of quality. However, another player NOT playing that pass, and instead laying it off to a teammate 10 yards away, has done nothing wrong. Just that, you multiply that minor analysis over 90 mins then over 30 odd games, you start to notice the difference of having more quality.

At the top level, quality makes the difference. If you can only do what is expected, you will not get criticised. When Bernardo Silva cut in from the right against us two weeks ago, he would have been within his rights to play a square pass from the right to the left then make a run. He instead dropped one in our top corner. He’ll do it again this season a few more times, and similar, because he has quality.

So many times I watch football, and I just think ‘bend it in’, ‘if only he just played a back heel there, we were in’ etc. These things are not things you will criticise a player for not doing, but things you would expect of a high quality player, and this is why they make a difference. In a team as a whole, we do not have enough of it. We have the most of it in our front line, but precious little in our middle third, particularly with no Pogba. It is apparent. We are poor in possession, we lack ideas, and for a top side, are miles off it when it comes to keeping possession under pressure, circulating it and making chances consistently. The idea that we should leave all of that to some #10 and be done with it is incredibly outdated in itself.

He is not comparable to KDB for two reasons. One, because he is a ‘different type of player who plays in a different position’. Yes. He also has far less quality than him. Frenkie De Jong, Marco Verratti, Thiago, Luka Modric are examples of other midfielders who are ‘different’ to KDB, but don’t have less quality. And even then, nobody is even saying McTominay needs to have as much quality as KDB, who is likely the world’s best midfielder. That isn’t the bar.

I am aware Scott McTominay isn’t a playmaker. Sadly, he is a central midfielder. He sees a lot of the ball, by default, because when you play for a supposed top team, most of the game you will have nobody to run around tackling, as you put it. ‘Finding the players who can create’ requires good passing ability, unless you are going to run the ball to their feet. At the top level, it requires even more than that, it requires the ability to drop a shoulder and take a player or two out to beat a press, then release your creator or forward to do them. You don’t HAVE to do that, it’s difficult, and you won’t be chastised if you don’t. You could just pass it to your centre half. Again, in isolation, it’s fine. Over 30 games, these details all add up, you create less chances than the other top teams and are easier to defend against. If you are not good enough on the ball, but better off it, then perhaps you will shine more in certain games and scenarios. But I’m tired of being the team that needs to have the extra ball winners when we play any half decent team. The whole purpose behind that is an acceptance that you guys can keep the ball better than we can, so let’s not try and do that against you. Why does that forever need to be the case for us?

You saying it is ‘unacceptable’ to criticise a player who has ‘done nothing wrong’ says a lot in itself. I don’t see ‘doing nothing wrong’ as the bar. And I don’t just blindly criticise McTominay, I usually just provide my opinion when I see the conversation saying that he is some sort of great midfielder and one who must be a mainstay in our XI. It’s not an opinion I share, for the reasons I have just explained, and I don’t see us as a team who will keep the ball well enough to the expectation of what I PERSONALLY consider a top side should, and that is down to what I consider a quality deficiency. Not an effort one, not an attitude one, not an encouragement one or all the other adjectives used so frequently in this thread. That stuff does not help you keep the ball as a midfield at the top level. It helps you win it a bit more perhaps, bit when are we going to ask our opposition to start worrying about that more?

As for ‘getting behind the team’, I think I am one of the posters on here who does that most. I hate the fact that every conversation is ruined with negativity. I am very much a ‘support the team’ poster. But at some point, we’re going to need to do what we need to do to become a top side again. I think we need more quality in midfield to see is start taking hold of games better, moving it at a high tempo and with precision.

I’ve said before, I don’t like Scott McTominay AT ALL. Firstly, he’s a United player, and secondly, he’s one who tries hard too, and has many qualities, as you have said. In the absence of top quality midfielders, I fully support him playing for us. I would prefer that, at some point, he is replaced in the XI by a player who can run and tackle, but also use the ball better than he can. That is an opinion I am perfectly entitled to, and one that is not at all unreasonable. I have nothing against young players, young midfielders or whatever. If I think they are ‘United quality’, great. I’ve said before, if we were talking about Phil Foden here, or a 20 year old Wilshere, my view would be totally different. Just because I see them of growing into players of the right calibre to take us on. Not some sinister motive!
Love this post, especially the bolded part. It's become accepted wisdom that when playing the biggest clubs, we need to have more workers, water carriers, destroyers in the team. Even though the actual top clubs don't do that! They in fact try to play their own game against every rival, not pack the team with triers who are there to break up play.

This is partly why I found Van Gaal slightly less terrible than Mourinho. At least with Van Gaal we went to Anfield and took the game to Liverpool, passed them to death. He was terrible in most aspects but at least he wanted us to play like a top club.
 

ghaliboy

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I guess it is settled then, the talented ones don't work hard enough and the hard working ones aren't talented enough.
 

Rozay

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Love this post, especially the bolded part. It's become accepted wisdom that when playing the biggest clubs, we need to have more workers, water carriers, destroyers in the team. Even though the actual top clubs don't do that! They in fact try to play their own game against every rival, not pack the team with triers who are there to break up play.

This is partly why I found Van Gaal slightly less terrible than Mourinho. At least with Van Gaal we went to Anfield and took the game to Liverpool, passed them to death. He was terrible in most aspects but at least he wanted us to play like a top club.
It does frustrate. All this ‘play x against the big teams’. I thought we were supposed to be one of those? We concede the ball to every decent team before the game even starts, and we focus on how we can take it off them. We have done for a long time. 10 years ago, we wouldn’t have set up like that against City, but now they have built a side who can keep the ball, in the same time we’ve been obsessed with ball winners.

It’s become an established mentality of how we need to play against big teams, and has been the case even before our decline (maybe except against Arsenal). We’ve put in some brilliant defensive performances against big sides over the years I admit, but this is not a mentality we can easily switch on and off, as has shown, in my opinion, when we face some of the ‘smaller’ sides. We don’t look as comfortable as the other big sides with the ball.
 

dabeast

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McT is tall, strong, great stamina, can’t pass forward. Is a perfect No 6, sitting CDM, potentially better than Kante (who was only world-class between 25-29).

If he can learn the position - to sit with controlled aggression (like Matic against Burnley) - he is the perfect foil in a midfield three for Pogba and Bruno. His height is very useful on set pieces and he is the kind of personality who can, with a little security for his place in the team, be a vocal leader.
 

MrBest

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McT is tall, strong, great stamina, can’t pass forward. Is a perfect No 6, sitting CDM, potentially better than Kante (who was only world-class between 25-29).

If he can learn the position - to sit with controlled aggression (like Matic against Burnley) - he is the perfect foil in a midfield three for Pogba and Bruno. His height is very useful on set pieces and he is the kind of personality who can, with a little security for his place in the team, be a vocal leader.
Mctominay is not a CDM. He does not have the positional discipline nor can he tackle well without clumsily getting his opponent to the ground without conceding a foul. He is a brilliant team player and should be in a box to box role, hence your points on strength, stamina and aggression. The best and only real CDM we have is Matic, we badly neee a replacement for him.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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I don’t think he’s a DM at all, he’s a box to box player who has a bit of a goal threat. He doesn’t have the positioning nor the tackling to be a DM.

And before someone comments on the tackling, giving away a lot of fouls doesn’t make someone a good tackler.
 

Pogue Mahone

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People are misunderstanding what 'key' means.

The keystone in an arch isn't the piece that spans the furthest distance. It's the one that keeps things held together so that the bigger pieces can do their job.
Actually, I think you’re misunderstanding what ‘key’ means. It doesn’t support an arch. It unlocks doors.
 

James35

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When he becomes a key substitute I will be happy. We need better players than McTominay in our starting 11 and I hope in the summer we will address this by recruiting a top DCM and CB that will enable us to play Pogba if he stays or Donny in the two man midfield with Bruno in front of them. The likes of Fred and McTominay on the bench as good options to bring on and rest our better players.
 

JJ12

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We need a real CDM to replace Matic. We are big club looking to compete at the highest level and shouldn’t be forcing players in unnatural positions. It’s a key position that needs to be sorted.
 

elmo

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McT is tall, strong, great stamina, can’t pass forward. Is a perfect No 6, sitting CDM, potentially better than Kante (who was only world-class between 25-29).

If he can learn the position - to sit with controlled aggression (like Matic against Burnley) - he is the perfect foil in a midfield three for Pogba and Bruno. His height is very useful on set pieces and he is the kind of personality who can, with a little security for his place in the team, be a vocal leader.
He'll have to learn to actually tackle without fouling in the first place. I swear 90% of his tackles involve him using his arms to push the opposing player to the ground in stupid positions.

The fact that he's tall and strong makes it look even worse because he can overpower almost anyone with his pushing technique.
 

christian bennett

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He is a key player theres no debate about that the ones who dont rate him are the same ones that slag of bruno and rashford and quite simply don’t understand the basics of football.
 

MU655

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Not really sure how McTominay can be a key player or the glue that holds the team together when he barely gets involved in the possessional play. If that is anyone, it would be Fred who actually links the defence to the attack.

His passes played and received per match is far too low for a first-team midfielder. In truth, he is probably a major reason why we have struggled to win midfield battles because it is like playing with 10 men when we are in possession. He hides from the ball or his positional play is just bad, but either way, it is making it more difficult than it should be to hold onto possession.

He does not provide a reliable outlet for our players and so we are outnumbered too many times in midfield. His passes completed in his last three Premier League starts are 28, 28, 21; in comparison, Fred has 54, 56, 71 in those games. It is a problem and isn't one that has arisen recently.

Overall, his passes per game in the PL is 33.9 this season and 37.4 last season. Compare that to our other PL midfielders: Fred (54.6), Matic (54), Pogba (46.9), Fernandes (55.7).

McTominay is 120th in terms of passes completed per game in the Premier League. That is far from good enough for the first team. For reference, Pogba (our second-lowest passer per game) is 69th, Matic (46th), Fred (45th), and Fernandes (40th).

He is fine for smaller games, but it is one of the top positions we need to improve in the summer.
 

Poborsky's hair

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I swear whenever we don't play for more than 3 days and overal the team is doing well. McT's fans will come here or his performance thread and to claim he could be this or that. With every day passed without playing he's becoming better and better player.

Answers to some of the bulls here. No he can't be a CDM, his passing is absolutely limited, Probably the worst passer in midfield Ive seen for us there including Andreas Pereira. He's also, while tall and strong, pretty limited tackler who fouls a lot and more importantly is positionally awkward even after all those games he got. Yes he's got good stamina, and passion but that's certainly not enough. Also just because he runs a lot and far doesn't mean he's quick enough in the first 3 yards which is the most important aspect of the game.

I've watched the EPL for 15 years quite regularly and I can tell you that if you replace him with Mark Noble he will do a better job, in fact I'd struggle to find a midfielder who would be worse there. He's certainlysomeone who profited from being around when we seriously lacked in that department but moving forward we should really make him our 5th/6th midfielder rather than a starter. Occasionally he's got a good game and I am happy for him when he does, but it's only a false view of his abilities when next game he can't do absolute simple things.

If we want to improve we should definitely improve our first teamers so now our starters become stronger squad players and players like Scott become more and more fringe players only to end up at WBA where he belongs. It's not a priorty to shift him out now completely because occasionally he canslot it but god save us if we think he can step up and that we don't have to replace Matic with a truly Manchester United quality... and even Matic shouldn't be a starter for us.

Saying all this I hope he's got a good game tomorrow and might suit him well without the ball because we don't have anyone next to Fred to keep things tight in midfield , depending on Matics mood and fitness. Just hope our recruitment plans toward dominating team rather than being an underdog team forever in big games because most often than not those teams lose points..
 

Hughie77

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Mctom I think he starts against the scum today. With pogba could be wrong may well be, but hes a top player, and at his age can only improve, he plays in a back 3 for Scotland so hes got that experience . As a sitter and not going forward as much jury is out. Matic is better at it. I think there more pluses for him than minus.