I don't want to be one of those PASSION guys but I seriously think the team now has players working really hard and reaping the rewards of that. Shaw, Fred, McTominay, Bruno, Rashford and Cavani just don't stop. Maguire and Wan-Bissaka play almost every game. Feels like a different collective attitude than there's been in a long time.
Work rate and attitude
- Thread starter MAME DIOUF 32
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Attitude has definitely changed since Bruno came in and winning breeds confidence
Don't get the PASSION reference. For me, this is the mark of a player and a team, for that matter.
It's not the same as effort but both are necessary to be serious title contenders. We definitely are increasing the levels of both qualities across the team and if Ole can pull up the few stragglers we have, we could be champions this season.
It's not the same as effort but both are necessary to be serious title contenders. We definitely are increasing the levels of both qualities across the team and if Ole can pull up the few stragglers we have, we could be champions this season.
Cavani's willingness to chase, chase, harry, hassle is incredible. I think our younger forwards could learn a lot from him.
Last season we lacked quality in depth. We were having to play the same small group of players every game in order to get results. We had the busiest schedule of any top flight team after we returned from lockdown. We had one of the longest seasons. We had no preseason. When we played our first game of the 2020/21 campaign, we had had one preseason friendly. Palace were playing their eighth game.
We were always going to start poorly, and I said that at the beginning of the campaign. People complaining about a lack of heart, commitment etc were ignoring the enormous obstacles we were having to face. Our players were already willing to run themselves into the ground for Ole last season, even before Bruno came in. Nothing has changed in that sense. We've just got up to gear and now we finally have enough quality in the squad to rotate effectively.
We were always going to start poorly, and I said that at the beginning of the campaign. People complaining about a lack of heart, commitment etc were ignoring the enormous obstacles we were having to face. Our players were already willing to run themselves into the ground for Ole last season, even before Bruno came in. Nothing has changed in that sense. We've just got up to gear and now we finally have enough quality in the squad to rotate effectively.
... and people still laughed "cultural reboot" off. It was necessary, and we are just starting to se the benefits,
Martial was very lazy today and basically didn't even try to do anything, and yet stayed on for over 80 minutes.
I don't think the attitude has been much of a problem since Ole took over. We just have better/more reliable players so can afford to carry the odd one or two who aren't at it, and the confidence/belief is currently a lot higher. I can't think of many games since the Mourinho era where it's looked like half the team has been moping about.
Start of last season we'd frequently have 2-3 players in the starting line up who the rest of the team would have to carry regardless of how good the attitude of those players might have been. I mean I would never accuse Pereira of having a poor attitude but Fernandes could have his worst game of the season and still be 10x as effective.
I don't think the attitude has been much of a problem since Ole took over. We just have better/more reliable players so can afford to carry the odd one or two who aren't at it, and the confidence/belief is currently a lot higher. I can't think of many games since the Mourinho era where it's looked like half the team has been moping about.
Start of last season we'd frequently have 2-3 players in the starting line up who the rest of the team would have to carry regardless of how good the attitude of those players might have been. I mean I would never accuse Pereira of having a poor attitude but Fernandes could have his worst game of the season and still be 10x as effective.
You would think Martial would look at a 34 year old cavani who has won it all chasing down every loose ball and kick himself into gear, but apparently not.
Passion and work rate have been more visible primarily because we have become accustomed to coming from behind and holding on desperately to narrow wins.
The weird thing is you see it distinctively with some players and for others, it's not there at all.
Rashford...I dont see it
It’s night and day compared to Mourinhos reign. Where our players looked like they couldn’t care less. Even someone like Martial who’s been in mediocre form, I still seen him tracking back and making a considerable effort.
Id also add that if someone wasn’t working hard enough Bruno will probably yell at them and thus embarrass them on tv.
Id also add that if someone wasn’t working hard enough Bruno will probably yell at them and thus embarrass them on tv.
As much as I like Jose, it's true.
Ole is the first manager after SAF that can keep our team United.
We have no real weapons for the right side of attack and we are first. We are still just a bit of quality away from having a top class team again. You can see the blend is improving and the fight is there. It’s much much more like Fergie’s United.
Cavani is just a dream player for any manager, non stop for 90 mins both when we have possession and when defending. He is 33, will be 34 in couple of weeks. Our younger attackers should learn a lot from him.
Work rate is hardly a problem to us, particularly since the Southampton come back. It is Concentration.
You can't see things you don't want to see. Another odd one with a thing against our best performing young talent. Strange fanbase this.
Rashford has typically been one of our hardest workers on and off the ball but that hasn't been even close to the case end of last season and this season. For a handful of games this season he began to pick up and then his application in games declined again. I can't fault the poster here. Rashford spends a lot of time walking when we don't the ball, he doesn't press anymore whereas before he used to be the first, he jumps out of 50/50 challenges, doesn't bother jumping for aerial balls - have you not noticed that? At least with the ball he's starting to run at people again which is great, however, he can't be described currently as hard working.
It may be that he's carrying something in which case, I'd say rest him and get him back 100% before he does some long term damage to his body and a promising career.
100%. I wonder how much fitter a player can get at 25 to get to that level of stamina.
Because the other poster misspelled it, should be ‘PASHUN’
Rashford's huge drop off in work-rate actually started right from the beginning of last season. His overall good form kind of hid it for a while, but it was noticeable. Martial statistically pressed more than Rashford last season which (although Martial himself improved in that aspect) would have been unheard of in previous seasons.
I agree on Rashford. I love the lad to bits. He's probably my favourite player.
But I do think his work rate when we don't have the ball is not at the level it once was. Look at Cavani and compare.
As another poster said, he may well need a rest and hopefully return reinvigorated.
But I do think his work rate when we don't have the ball is not at the level it once was. Look at Cavani and compare.
As another poster said, he may well need a rest and hopefully return reinvigorated.
I agree. Until recently I put Pogba in the group which weren't really exerting themselves and visibly showing it on the pitch. Thankfully and to his credit, he's doing something about it.
However, I don't see the effort that it needs to win matches and championships being put in by Martial, Rashford and Greenwood. All of them are young, all of them should be able to harass defenders more and all of them look unenthusiastic too often. Cavani truly shames each of them and if others in the squad aren't sometimes pee'd off by their fluctuating levels of effort, I'd be amazed.
It's nothing to do with dumb passion and all to do with quality and players who have standards. We finally have a squad which is good enough and expects to win, so goes out there to do just that instead of being happy with fourth.
Given the above criteria (quality above all else), McTominay has no place in this conversation because he's not good enough as a defensive midfielder for what we need if we want to challenge for top honours where we'd need to beat the biggest teams. He should be a bench option for box-to-box and Donny should be a starter because he has the football ability a club like us demands.
Rashford has also recently been very, very poor and only his flashes of brilliance (and passport) have saved him from harsher criticism than what Martial endures from the biased British pundits (and the passionistas on this forum). That's why Sancho would complete our attacking puzzle, as he can offer competition to both of them and be the missing link on the right wing, as a primary role.
Given the above criteria (quality above all else), McTominay has no place in this conversation because he's not good enough as a defensive midfielder for what we need if we want to challenge for top honours where we'd need to beat the biggest teams. He should be a bench option for box-to-box and Donny should be a starter because he has the football ability a club like us demands.
Rashford has also recently been very, very poor and only his flashes of brilliance (and passport) have saved him from harsher criticism than what Martial endures from the biased British pundits (and the passionistas on this forum). That's why Sancho would complete our attacking puzzle, as he can offer competition to both of them and be the missing link on the right wing, as a primary role.
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One of hardest working forwards we have had since Carlos
I think some players who have been here a while are working harder than they did last season, but before that we had hard workers too. But we had a bit less quality. We lost some hard work. It might be more noticable to people because last season its something we lacked compared to previous to that.
The main difference is the end result and Bruno leading by example. If he didnt put out the numbers he does we'd be nowhere near where we are and our attack wouldnt be doing miles better than last season. Contrastly if you put Bruno in the team from the start of last season we'd have also done better than scraping 3rd. And if you put Bruno in the team from the season before last we'd be in a similar position too.
Its quite simple actually. We have spent a lot of money over the past 5 years. We have signed a lot of players who werent worth the money we paid. We were due a good one, and Bruno happened to be the exact perfect player for what we lacked in attack. Someone who worked hard and was always trying to win, had a creative spark to help Pogba create and could also score lots of goals because we've had Martial up front for years and he blows hot and cold. We got lucky and/or our scouting team finally did a great job - despite the previous window us insisting we werent interested in him. And its not that much on top of that. Bruno just brought a lot to the table and we got a new best player, so now we have better results
The main difference is the end result and Bruno leading by example. If he didnt put out the numbers he does we'd be nowhere near where we are and our attack wouldnt be doing miles better than last season. Contrastly if you put Bruno in the team from the start of last season we'd have also done better than scraping 3rd. And if you put Bruno in the team from the season before last we'd be in a similar position too.
Its quite simple actually. We have spent a lot of money over the past 5 years. We have signed a lot of players who werent worth the money we paid. We were due a good one, and Bruno happened to be the exact perfect player for what we lacked in attack. Someone who worked hard and was always trying to win, had a creative spark to help Pogba create and could also score lots of goals because we've had Martial up front for years and he blows hot and cold. We got lucky and/or our scouting team finally did a great job - despite the previous window us insisting we werent interested in him. And its not that much on top of that. Bruno just brought a lot to the table and we got a new best player, so now we have better results
We still need to get rid of a couple of bad apples before we are there work rate wise.
Tony was the worst of a bad bunch today, but everyone was shit for their second goal. Rio summed it up well post match, so I'll just post what he said. He's spot on. It becomes even more baffling the more you watch it back.
Inexcusable. Lazy lazy fecker.
I take more offense to the lack of fight tonight from players like Rashford, Matic, Telles and especially Martial, than players working their boots off but getting sent off or scoring an own goal. No excuse for hiding - we can all see it, and I hope to God that I don't see Martial for some time after tonight. Giggs - in his flipping forties - ran and fought more - how should this be acceptable from a 25-year-old agewise-in-his-prime athlete?
Get rid. Done. He's not this bad - no way -, so I guess this is just what he thinks the club is worth.
Get rid. Done. He's not this bad - no way -, so I guess this is just what he thinks the club is worth.
Feck him ,what the actual feck is that. See Cavani who's 34 years old and the movement he makes.
Seriously drop his lazy ass.
We thought we had won the game at 20:15 tonight.
Everyone did.
Everyone did.
Before the game our players talk big about winning titles and then, naturally, we c*ck up in our next showing.
I dont hear/read City players harping on about winning titles. They just do it.
I dont hear/read City players harping on about winning titles. They just do it.
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I’m not shocked by much in football now and I’m never shocked by Utd getting beat. I’ve probably seen 99.99% of United’s games since the early 90s and I know as well as anybody that we’ve still a massive target on our back and teams full of pub players like Sheff Utd will always raise their game and make life difficult.
What I was shocked by tonight was the performance. The lack of effort. The errors. The body language. I couldn’t fathom it and I still can’t. How can a team who has been so good and so consistent work themselves to the top of the table and then deliver that heartless, gutless, lazy, insipid performance?
Let’s be under no illusions. This wasn’t a heroic backs-to-the-wall performance from Sheff Utd. They couldn’t fill their bench. They had a 38 year old fat lad at CB. There first XI is made up of Championship players at best...and yet we created nothing. We put them under no pressure. Our attitude stank from start to finish. I don’t think I have ever seen less effort or desire from a Manchester Utd team in a PL game.
For me, that was THE worst performance I can recall from us in the Premier League, taking into account quality of the opposition, our current run and the total lack of effort. Yes there have been heavier defeats, but have there been any more abject? I’m not sure.
What I was shocked by tonight was the performance. The lack of effort. The errors. The body language. I couldn’t fathom it and I still can’t. How can a team who has been so good and so consistent work themselves to the top of the table and then deliver that heartless, gutless, lazy, insipid performance?
Let’s be under no illusions. This wasn’t a heroic backs-to-the-wall performance from Sheff Utd. They couldn’t fill their bench. They had a 38 year old fat lad at CB. There first XI is made up of Championship players at best...and yet we created nothing. We put them under no pressure. Our attitude stank from start to finish. I don’t think I have ever seen less effort or desire from a Manchester Utd team in a PL game.
For me, that was THE worst performance I can recall from us in the Premier League, taking into account quality of the opposition, our current run and the total lack of effort. Yes there have been heavier defeats, but have there been any more abject? I’m not sure.
The truth is that we don't coach a unified press. There's no pressing system. There's individual players who want to press and individual players who don't. No pressing triggers, no pressing waves, no coordination. Simply no coaching on it.
Honestly I would be tempted to take Rashford and Martial out of the side and stick Cavani ,with Bruno just off, uptop.
No work rate and a bad attitude. Throw his toys out of the pram when he lost the no9 shirt to Zlatan, and he has done it again since the Cavani signing.
This. Solskjaer has praised Cavani in several pressers this season and he's said he wants our other strikers to learn from Cavani's movement in the box and his workrate. This doesn't sit well with Martial and now he's hurt and back in "don't give a shit"-mode.
I still can’t
I really hope this is a one off and it was complacency.
Honestly mate it’s a few hours later and I’m still seething. Everything you’ve said is spot on. My brain cannot process what I just saw. We lost a game 6-1 this season and it wasn’t this bad.
I really hope this is a one off and it was complacency.