Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

Dansk

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GoldTrafford99 said:
Klopp’s teams have history of burn out.

We’ve seen it happen before.

His Dortmund team had three consecutive seasons of being the hardest working team in Bundesliga in much similar fashion to how Liverpool have been the hardest working (both on and off the ball) in the Premier League since 2017/18.

In Klopp’s final season, Dortmund were in the relegation zone at Christmas because they just deflated.

Then he left, claiming he, himself, needed a breather. He was wrecked. He looks wrecked now, in truth.

I love Klopp. I think he’s done a stellar job at both clubs. But it seems his football philosophy has a short shelf life for players.

I hate to say this, though I fear it’s true: Liverpool’s balloon (like Dortmund’s) may well have burst so much that Klopp will never be able to blow it back up.

There are so many parallels between Klopp at Dortmund and Klopp at Liverpool.

Either way, he did a great job at both. And is a club legend X 2.

But the football he tasks his teams with playing is just not sustainable to oversee a period of dominance. Jurgen Klopp is no Sir Alex Ferguson.
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I consider that a form of mismanagement, and a big blemish on a manager's credentials. It's like when you see those players who are clearly extremely talented and show world class performances at times, but have big faults off the pitch that interfere with their careers and keep them from being considered one of the very best. If Klopp's managerial style is to push his teams so hard that they break after three years of overperforming, and then spend much longer than that trying to put the pieces back together and claw their way back to competitiveness, I have a hard time calling him one of the greats. At best he's good at motivating players and getting them to break themselves for him, which is certainly an effective means of getting short-term results, but not a healthy one for the club. He hasn't shown himself to be a tactical mastermind, and he won the CL against what must surely be called the easiest final opponent anyone has had in like twenty years. If Liverpool go through the same utter implosion that Dortmund did, he'll be a deeply flawed manager in my eyes.
 
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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Also feel that teams learn pretty quickly how to nullify threats. Now TAA has an unreal delivery on him, but if you know he is ALWAYS looking for that early ball in, then you set up to stop that. Now you cannot always defend an amazing delivery, sometimes the ball is too good. But all it takes is a little drop off in quality and suddenly that threat quickly disappears.

In my opinion, this is where you separate great players from good players; the ability to not only have one trick in your locker. Trent has a great delivery but he isn't really an athlete, he cannot tackle, defensively he is suspect, dribbling isn't his thing etc. So now you have a player whose only real ability is faltering, meaning you are now carrying a player who is not offering anything.

People have been calling them out on this forum for ages that they are a hoof ball team and it is true. They haven't played good football in 24 months but it has been mightily effective, the challenge now is changing it up and getting back to winning ways.
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They had a real dip after lockdown last season for sure.
But i think any reasonable
person who doesn't have a Liverpool bitterness would laugh you out of court for suggesting it's been 2 full years without good football!
 

Eplel

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Getting into a slump is something that can happen to every manager. Leading the team out of the slump is one of the signs of a truly elite manager.
 

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TheNewEra said:
SAF would always go in hard during the transfer windows after winning trophies, maybe to keep the team competitive or to keep the hunger there for players
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Actually I have to disagree there, it’s one of my enduring frustrations with Fergie that oftentimes after success he didn’t look to further strengthen. This is especially the case after our Champions League wins in 1999 and 2008, both of which provided a platform from which to go on to dominate Europe properly, but were followed by very modest/unambitious transfer windows.
 

chicha14

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SAF always said that his hardest seasons were the ones after winning the league, maintaining that hunger and drive. That's what separates the men from the boys. May only be a handful , but please Liverpool fans, never compare Klopp and Ferguson, EVER!
 

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Judas said:
I don't know how burn out can be ruled out. It looks like a mixture of both to me. Burn out first, and with that the confidence has dropped.

They're dominating, but not in the same way as before, nowhere near. It's so much slower, even more predictable than last season too.
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But again I believe that is more to do with confidence. The higher your confidence also tends to be the more you are willing to run. If they had scored even 10 of the 90 shots you'd probably see them being as dynamic as before as the confidence would flow through the team.
 

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They've looked noticeable slower since after lockdown. I don't know if the stats back that up, but it just clearly looks like burnout to me. They ran themselves into the ground over the previous two seasons. It was never sustainable to be at that level for another year.
 

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2cents said:
Actually I have to disagree there, it’s one of my enduring frustrations with Fergie that oftentimes after success he didn’t look to further strengthen. This is especially the case after our Champions League wins in 1999 and 2008, both of which provided a platform from which to go on to dominate Europe properly, but were followed by very modest/unambitious transfer windows.
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Yes and no. I think history tells a complex tale.

92-95, United didn’t spend much after not winning in 92 and 95, but broke the bank twice on Roy Keane and Andy Cole (plus stealing David May from Blackburn) after winning the league in 93 and 94.

After winning again in 96, we refreshed with Poborsky, Cruyff, Johnsen and Solskjær, of which the first three were clearly intended for the first team.

In your favor, Stam and Yorke were twobig buys after not winning in 98, and then we did little after the treble, only replacing one great Dane with two free (and failed) transfers (Bosnich and Taibi - maybe Fergie’s worst window ever in terms of quality?). A mitigating fact was how many young players were coming through at once with class of 92 theoretically approaching their primes. I think the club had too high hopes that a next generation would provide top competition for these, not recognizing the uniqueness of the Co92 phenomenon.

01-04: Van Nistelrooy, Veron, Forlan (and Blanc) were bought after winning three leagues in a row (thinking of Europe though), whereas ‘only’ Ferdinand was brought in after not winning in 02, and then after the next league win, Ronaldo, Saha, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba and Howard came all at once, at various prices but a big total, and all intended to challenge for first team spots. This period doesn’t favor tour claim I think.

05-09: After not winning in 06, only Carrick came. Then, after winning the league, we brought in young and expensive in a huge splash: Tevez, Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani. Winning again in 08, we got Berbatov, which is not ‘nothing’, a Ferdinand scale buy but whereas Ferdinand was added to fill the gap of Stam, Berbatov was brought on top of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez. Also, the big outlays on Anderson and Nani the year before was also seen asreinforcements for this season as much as for the season before. In all, it’s a bit so-so regarding your argument IMO. The disaster was 2009, replacing Ronaldo with Valencia et al. In my view, this whole period should be seen less in the light of Ferguson reacting to success and failure, and more in the light of the Glazer model of spending and not spending that they had used at the Buccaneers previously.

All in all, there is evidence both for the myth that Fergie likes to reinforce after success, and your claim that he sometimes could be more trusting of the (young) players already at the club when we could have done with some fresh blood as well, particularily in 99. Then again, the result of that ‘failure’ was three leagues in a row, so it wasn’t all bad.
 

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Berbasbullet said:
Burnley were hanging on for quite a while though. I think they will start winning games soon enough, question is whether the gap is now too big though?
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Yeah Liverpool were the better side - but I was never extremely nervous in the last 15 minutes. Early on - I expected them to score, but after 70 minutes they sort of lost the plan - it was more panic playing than anything else
 

GoldTrafford99

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mancan92 said:
But again I believe that is more to do with confidence. The higher your confidence also tends to be the more you are willing to run. If they had scored even 10 of the 90 shots you'd probably see them being as dynamic as before as the confidence would flow through the team.
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Burn out doesn't mean just physical... burn out at the top level of any sport is mostly mental.

The fuse on Liverpool's light bulb has blown.

It is ABSOLUTELY due to both mental and physical fatigue.
 

Klopper76

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It's a bit of an effort to go back and reply to everyone who has replied/posted since I last did so here's my thoughts:

The whole '*' thing I always took as a bit of banter but if some people genuinely think it delegitimizes our title win then fair enough. We had the league won before the first lockdown started as far as I can tell. My suggestions about this season were tongue in cheek. This pandemic has created a uniquely different season though, which would be going differently in some way (not necessarily better for us) if there had been a full pre season, fans for the whole season etc.

On Klopp running us into the ground, I know some people have believed this for a while and I can understand the thinking considering our drop off after finishing on 97 and 99 points. I think this is wrong though for several reasons:

- Firstly we were top at Christmas and everyone's favorite to win the league at that point. Dortmund in Klopp's final season melted down from the start of that year and were in the relegation zone of the Bundesliga if I remember correctly. This blip we're on has only started over the last few games.
- Everyone thinks we've only just started struggling in these last five games. Our biggest detractors on here will tell you that there were several games in 18/19 & 19/20 where we didn't play well but found a way to get over the line. We've had worse performances than last night for example and have still found ways to win over the last two and a half years. This is because Klopp has made us a more pragmatic side and less about the "heavy metal football" we played in 17/18. We've had plenty of games where we haven't played well and won, or had some luck go our way like the handball decision against City last year. I don't think we're playing at a level below what we have been previously. Last seaon we would've won 1-0 at Brighton and they wouldn't have had that last minute penalty given because that's how it fell for us. Swings and roundabouts.
- I think the loss of Jota has left us with an out of form Firmino up top which hasn't helped. His confidence in front of goal is rock bottom.
- We're still top scorers in the league despite not scoring in our last four league games. I couldn't believe it when I saw that to be honest.
- We're not actually playing badly in a lot of these games. We're dominating possession, touches, passes, shots on goal etc. The issue is that once we get to the final ball or shot, it's not happening right now.
- This drop off was expected (I've lost count of how many times I've posted this). City had it happen to them last season and they're not going to break 90 points this season either because it's not sustainable for more than two seasons. Saying that City were 'rebuilding' last season is just an excuse for their drop off. We're now going through this but most of our bad form has come all at once.

I don't think I see a team that is breaking down after years of going full throttle. We don't even press as highly or as intensely as we used to and we haven't for a couple of seasons. This is a bad spell like everyone has had this season. Ours has come in January and I'm sure other teams will have bad runs of form like this as the season goes on.
 

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Klopper76 said:
I don't think I see a team that is breaking down after years of going full throttle. We don't even press as highly or as intensely as we used to and we haven't for a couple of seasons. This is a bad spell like everyone has had this season. Ours has come in January and I'm sure other teams will have bad runs of form like this as the season goes on.
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I think this is a fair way of putting it. I know Liverpool haven't scored goals but watching the game, its not as if they huffed and puffed without nothing.

We had this last season at the start where things just didn't go our way... it happens in football, when you are on top playing well, you get the luck, you get the last min goal, you get a deflected goal, you get a wondergoal to win a game, opponents miss glaring chances.

It swings in roundabouts, Liverpool are still a good team, I fully expect them to find their form.

Manutd at the start were in a crisis
City 6 weeks ago were in crisis, people talking about should Pep be sacked? now they are favourites
Lampard went on a 17 game unbeaten spree, people thought they'll challenge and have hit a dip
Arsenal over xmas were in crisis, now its all looking rosy again.
 

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GoldTrafford99 said:
Burn out doesn't mean just physical... burn out at the top level of any sport is mostly mental.

The fuse on Liverpool's light bulb has blown.

It is ABSOLUTELY due to both mental and physical fatigue.
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I would believe that if they were not making a ridiculous amount of chances still. Origi missing that ridiculous one on one isn't fatigue for him. He puts that away the story is different.

Their chance creation isnt less than normal which means they will eventually get back to finishing which will then I'm sure see a return to higher energy levels.
 

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Klopp has done a great job with Liverpool, regardless of what happens now, but its very, very hard to stay on top for extended periods.

Not that SAF always had great teams, but say, 2006-2011 was incredible in hindsight, if not on top, always incredible close to it.
 

Josh 76

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It's way to early to write these off. Normally you would get a team out in front and say it will be too difficult to catch. But that's not the case this season. Now with Debryne out for a few weeks, it's all back in the melting pot.
Every team will drop points and it will go down to the wire.
Just a big shame Utd can't get a player this month to give everyone a boost. Its their for the taking.
 

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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Also feel that teams learn pretty quickly how to nullify threats. Now TAA has an unreal delivery on him, but if you know he is ALWAYS looking for that early ball in, then you set up to stop that. Now you cannot always defend an amazing delivery, sometimes the ball is too good. But all it takes is a little drop off in quality and suddenly that threat quickly disappears.

In my opinion, this is where you separate great players from good players; the ability to not only have one trick in your locker. Trent has a great delivery but he isn't really an athlete, he cannot tackle, defensively he is suspect, dribbling isn't his thing etc. So now you have a player whose only real ability is faltering, meaning you are now carrying a player who is not offering anything.

People have been calling them out on this forum for ages that they are a hoof ball team and it is true. They haven't played good football in 24 months but it has been mightily effective, the challenge now is changing it up and getting back to winning ways.
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Good post until I read this. You cannot say that with a straight face surely? Despise them as much as the rest but they have been a machine in that period - obliterating teams within 30 mins most weeks.
 

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adamwest said:
Good post until I read this. You cannot say that with a straight face surely? Despise them as much as the rest but they have been a machine in that period - obliterating teams within 30 mins most weeks.
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Id like to see stats on that because what I mostly remember about them last season was scoring quite a few late goals and winners or scoring from keeper / defender mistakes

Of course I don't remember all of it and that's what sticks out the most, but the last time I remember them playing good football was the season they came runners up by a point
 

MikeeMike

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Klopp has certainly had a dip in form when it comes to post match interviews. He always tended to answer everything after one question but post Burnley he just waffled. “All down to me” then “It is impossible to lose” then “The players need to work harder and make better decisions in front of goal”.
Better he just said it was one of those nights where nothing went right according to stats.

Sounding more bitter now things not going his way. Penalty “facht” rant didnt help.

Roll on Sunday.
 

Samid

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Won the league by an 18 point margin. Spent £80m on three players in a covid market and significantly strengthened the squad. And now he's blaming the owners for his shortcomings this season. Shameless man.
 

jymufc20

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Samid said:

Won the league by an 18 point margin. Spent £80m on three players in a covid market and significantly strengthened the squad. And now he's blaming the owners for his shortcomings this season. Shameless man.
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Says he won't "cry like a baby" whilst crying like a baby.

The cheek of anybody ever comparing this clown to Sir Alex.
 

alexthelion

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mancan92 said:
To be fair it's not burn out its just confidence. they have still dominated all their games and have had something like 90 shots which is ridiculous. just means the players final shot has been bad. it will auto correct soon.
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Mental burnout leading to a loss of confidence?
 

Klopper76

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jymufc20 said:
Says he won't "cry like a baby" whilst crying like a baby.

The cheek of anybody ever comparing this clown to Sir Alex.
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Seems like it's only United fans who compare the two. You wouldn't find a Liverpool fan suggesting Klopp is a better manager than Ferguson (a man who Klopp described as "the Pope of football").
 

Klopper76

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This is who our owner hangs out with:


I'm not complaining about FSG btw. They've invested a lot into the club. But feck Trump.
 

OleBoiii

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Poor Klopp... He's only had Alisson, TAA, Robertson, Fabinho, Wjinaldum, Henderson, Salah, Mane, Firmino and Jota for most of the season. The horror!!!
 

jymufc20

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Klopper76 said:
Seems like it's only United fans who compare the two. You wouldn't find a Liverpool fan suggesting Klopp is a better manager than Ferguson (a man who Klopp described as "the Pope of football").
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I haven't seen any Liverpool fans on here doing that but have heard them in person saying that.

Klopper76 said:
This is who our owner hangs out with:


I'm not complaining about FSG btw. They've invested a lot into the club. But feck Trump.
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I get the impression they have invested all that money in to the club (to buy the league *) but just expected the investments to last the long haul and didn't quite understand football.
 

Ludens the Red

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I don’t like this current Jurgen Klopp at all. He’s a very very bad loser and is becoming very unlikeable.
And I know most great managers are bad losers but even when the likes of Mourinho, Fergie and Pep were in foul moods they’d always say or do something so hilarious that you kind of just let it slide. Mourinhos villa rant, Pep’s happy new year interview etc. Even back when Klopp would blame the wind there was a funny charm to it.

For the last few months Klopp has been a giant arsehole. Confronting managers, presenters, pundits and basically criticising the style of play of every team who’ve had the audacity to not bend over for them.
Stropping during interviews, saying stupid things, generally just being a massive bellend without any of his old charm.
He wasn’t like this in his early days when Liverpool weren’t going great so it’s an eye opener to see how sore he’s become..
 

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Klopper76 said:
This is who our owner hangs out with:


I'm not complaining about FSG btw. They've invested a lot into the club. But feck Trump.
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Unfortunately our owners are in with him too. But the super rich will always tend to favour the right since their policies help the super rich get even richer at the expense of the normal workers.
 

Marcus

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I think the long-term loss of VVD was a bridge too far. Liverpool were lucky with having their best 11 fit for most of last season, but injuries eventually takes its toll on even the best teams.
 

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TheNewEra said:
Klopp is probably the second best manager in the world after Pep.
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The weird thing about the best managers in the world these days is they all have short lifespans at each club. And it’s all to do with motivation.

Pep struggles with it. He has done this season. It’s why he ultimately left barca. I’ve yet to see a modern day manager in the PL get their team back to the heights they were once at.

It’s going to be very interesting to see if Klopp can manage it. I have my doubts
 

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I've gone full optimist on this whereas previously I just thought they were missing Van Dijk. Think we're witnessing the first terminal stages of a mini glory period for Liverpool.
 

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VeevaVee said:
The weird thing about the best managers in the world these days is they all have short lifespans at each club. And it’s all to do with motivation.

Pep struggles with it. He has done this season. It’s why he ultimately left barca. I’ve yet to see a modern day manager in the PL get their team back to the heights they were once at.

It’s going to be very interesting to see if Klopp can manage it. I have my doubts
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SAF was an anomaly, the sooner United fans accept this the better. Even if managers are in for the rebuild the club may be eager to move on to the next big name. Those days are over for the most part
 

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Needham said:
I've gone full optimist on this whereas previously I just thought they were missing Van Dijk. Think we're witnessing the first terminal stages of a mini glory period for Liverpool.
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Liverpool fans are deluding themselves acting super confident they win titles every year which has turned to arrogance very quickly.

It is impossible to keep it up with their essentially limited resources. Their club isn’t rich enough for sustained success but most Liverpool fans seem to think they are like we were in the 90’s now...

They’ve won two big trophies in two years? Hardly domination.
 

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Leroy The Red said:
I don’t like this current Jurgen Klopp at all. He’s a very very bad loser and is becoming very unlikeable.
And I know most great managers are bad losers but even when the likes of Mourinho, Fergie and Pep were in foul moods they’d always say or do something so hilarious that you kind of just let it slide. Mourinhos villa rant, Pep’s happy new year interview etc. Even back when Klopp would blame the wind there was a funny charm to it.

For the last few months Klopp has been a giant arsehole. Confronting managers, presenters, pundits and basically criticising the style of play of every team who’ve had the audacity to not bend over for them.
Stropping during interviews, saying stupid things, generally just being a massive bellend without any of his old charm.
He wasn’t like this in his early days when Liverpool weren’t going great so it’s an eye opener to see how sore he’s become..
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He's always been like that and it's never been charming. Everyone just ignored how obnoxious he was because he was the saviour leading Liverpool back to the top.

Saying all of the above, this thread is being incredibly premature in writing Liverpool off. They've never been a fluid team and have always relied on moments of real quality from their front 3.

That front 3 is now out of form. It doesn't take much for it to click again and they'll be back to being a really dangerous team.
 

Needham

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Son said:
Liverpool fans are deluding themselves acting super confident they win titles every year which has turned to arrogance very quickly.

It is impossible to keep it up with their essentially limited resources. Their club isn’t rich enough for sustained success but most Liverpool fans seem to think they are like we were in the 90’s now...

They’ve won two big trophies in two years? Hardly domination.
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It's a growing multiplicity of factors. Salah wanting out. Teams having sussed out the press. Klopp's irrationality signaling distraction. How deep the injury crisis has rocked them. A manager coming to the end of the modern day 5 year cycle etc
 

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Klopper76 said:
It's a bit of an effort to go back and reply to everyone who has replied/posted since I last did so here's my thoughts:

The whole '*' thing I always took as a bit of banter but if some people genuinely think it delegitimizes our title win then fair enough. We had the league won before the first lockdown started as far as I can tell. My suggestions about this season were tongue in cheek. This pandemic has created a uniquely different season though, which would be going differently in some way (not necessarily better for us) if there had been a full pre season, fans for the whole season etc.

On Klopp running us into the ground, I know some people have believed this for a while and I can understand the thinking considering our drop off after finishing on 97 and 99 points. I think this is wrong though for several reasons:

- Firstly we were top at Christmas and everyone's favorite to win the league at that point. Dortmund in Klopp's final season melted down from the start of that year and were in the relegation zone of the Bundesliga if I remember correctly. This blip we're on has only started over the last few games.
- Everyone thinks we've only just started struggling in these last five games. Our biggest detractors on here will tell you that there were several games in 18/19 & 19/20 where we didn't play well but found a way to get over the line. We've had worse performances than last night for example and have still found ways to win over the last two and a half years. This is because Klopp has made us a more pragmatic side and less about the "heavy metal football" we played in 17/18. We've had plenty of games where we haven't played well and won, or had some luck go our way like the handball decision against City last year. I don't think we're playing at a level below what we have been previously. Last seaon we would've won 1-0 at Brighton and they wouldn't have had that last minute penalty given because that's how it fell for us. Swings and roundabouts.
- I think the loss of Jota has left us with an out of form Firmino up top which hasn't helped. His confidence in front of goal is rock bottom.
- We're still top scorers in the league despite not scoring in our last four league games. I couldn't believe it when I saw that to be honest.
- We're not actually playing badly in a lot of these games. We're dominating possession, touches, passes, shots on goal etc. The issue is that once we get to the final ball or shot, it's not happening right now.
- This drop off was expected (I've lost count of how many times I've posted this). City had it happen to them last season and they're not going to break 90 points this season either because it's not sustainable for more than two seasons. Saying that City were 'rebuilding' last season is just an excuse for their drop off. We're now going through this but most of our bad form has come all at once.

I don't think I see a team that is breaking down after years of going full throttle. We don't even press as highly or as intensely as we used to and we haven't for a couple of seasons. This is a bad spell like everyone has had this season. Ours has come in January and I'm sure other teams will have bad runs of form like this as the season goes on.
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Fair points. It's too early to write the obituary of them, just as we shouldn't get too carried away ourselves. It's been a strange year where one team goes from 'crisis' to next. Also, any team that loses its first choice centre halve pairing for the season is going to suffer a dip - especially when they can't play as high a line and have to drop their other first choice midfielders back (Fabinho is a crucial cog, though he is an excellent defender too).

As others have mentioned, once their front 3 clicks back, they will revert to some norm. If Thiago can fit in more, they will be dangerous.
 

Redfrog

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Dr Foo said:
Fair points. It's too early to write the obituary of them, just as we shouldn't get too carried away ourselves. It's been a strange year where one team goes from 'crisis' to next. Also, any team that loses its first choice centre halve pairing for the season is going to suffer a dip - especially when they can't play as high a line and have to drop their other first choice midfielders back (Fabinho is a crucial cog, though he is an excellent defender too).

As others have mentioned, once their front 3 clicks back, they will revert to some norm. If Thiago can fit in more, they will be dangerous.
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No we should not get carried ourself sure. The table is so tight and City can be top with their game in hand.

But about Liverpool, it is not that simple. Nobody knows if their front three will regain form just like that. Just look at Martial and his scoring form which is horrible since a while now. But at least Martial had a lot of clear chances through goal. And I don't see that for Liverpool. They dominate games but most of their chances are half chances, which is the worrying thing for them. They don't seem able to create a lot really. And Thiago doesn't seem to suit them.
I may be wrong but I watched the Burnley game just because I thought they can get something from it and it seems to be the case for most teams at the moment.
 
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