Agreed. With TAA, I think it's partially down to long-term corona effects as well as his calf injury. The other part is down to being a player in a team that isn't performing as well as they have been, and that there's usually no one on the right end of his crosses. So both a dip in form and some external causes as well. But "burned out", "spectacular decline" or "has already played his best football" - not for me.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
In my previous post, I was arguing that Benitez is not and should not be dismissed as "Less than 50% of what Klopp is". Don't confuse that as me saying that he is as successful/as good as Klopp.
But lets not forget....Benitez also reached legendary status when he won your 5th Champions League, he was regarded as the best since the 80's at the time. I'm simply highlighting that Klopp isn't quite as good as a very small population of football believe he is. You've not won 3 premier leagues on the bounce, its not a sustained period. You won a couple of cups and a premier league. You're not the power that a peak United, a peak City, a peak Arsenal, or a peak 80's Liverpool are/were.
None Liverpool fans are seeing a very predictable pattern here. Ive been posting for 12-18 months about how he will run you into the ground, I've mentioned Dortmund. Liverpool fans laughed it off, now some are turning. One of my very good friends at work who has been a season ticket holder at Anfield for 20 years openly discusses that he and his friends who attend games think that the Klopp era is likely over now due to his core of players peaking and burning out.
After City won it with 100 points, they had a lot of older players to move on, compare that strongest XI to this current one, and it's largely different. Their spine changed. Kompany, Walker, Fernandinho (positionally), Silva, Aguero, that core of winners needed changing. Thats why they were in complete transition.
They also don't appear to run their players into the ground, they play with a completely different style to Liverpool. They play like a breeze, they don't seem to break sweat, they make the ball do the hard work, they press less than they used to, they stroll through defences. Their style is far more sophisticated than Liverpools. They will always have more in the tank than Liverpool, they will easily outlast Liverpools core players this time round.
They've got, in my view the best CB pairing in England, the best midfield/attacking midfield, the best keeper, the best manager. Thats coming from me, a United fan, who strongly dislikes City and everything their modern success is built on.
I certainly didn't back Liverpool to go back to back at the end of the season, I saw the signs once you were clear for the title, I saw the defeat at Watford last season, the defeats against Arsenal at the end of the season, the 7-3 to Villa with no injury crisis, VVD was playing. Liverpool fans dismissing it as "crazy season". It doesn't matter. You still got spanked at Villa Park. They also didn't have their home fans cheering them on. The signs were there that you were over-performing. Now, some 6-9 months later, its in plain sight.
Its hard to improve the first 11 when you are so consistent for 2 years, so I thought Liverpool did good enough job to add depth. Added Minamino in Jan and then Jota, Thiago and Tsimikas in the summer which is a decent addition going by how clubs are impacted by Covid.
What isn’t Alexander-Arnold doing nowadays that he was doing for the previous two/three seasons?
- Launch ~20 hopeful punts into the box per match? Check.
- Play most of the match on the halfway line or the final third? Check.
- Be a shambles defensively? Check.
The truth is, Alexander-Arnold was never the second coming of Cafu/Carlos Alberto/Lahm and vastly overrated by Scousers and their propagandists in the media. His card was marked on this forum many moons ago and this ‘slump in form’ was correctly predicted. He simply isn’t that very good.
Jota is a massively underestimated loss. He gave their attack that different spark they've been painfully lacking. I expect him to come in and knock away some of the cobwebs in that department unfortunately.
Care to give me one RB who's been better than him over the last three years?
Our people will be ready. Welcome to Anfield!
I feel Klopp talking about the players being tired is a mistake. It will get into their heads that now when there is ten minutes left they will feel tired.
SAF constantly talked about how his players played to the very end and that is a mentality that the players then took on every game
SAF constantly talked about how his players played to the very end and that is a mentality that the players then took on every game
I think he spent too much time, money and effort beefing up his first 11 forgetting that a long season is a squad game. Their squad is shit, the proof is here for all to see after a couple of injuries.
He's done.
He's done.
By what metric?
Because we could pull out a few beauties to embarrass who is a defender first and foremost, lest we forget...
You strengthend much more than 99% of teams in the summer. That excuse doesn't fly.Because they've been better than us this season. Our struggles are not (exclusively) down to the injuries, I've argued a lot on here that it's our attack that's letting us down, not necessarily our defense. Maybe losing VVD indirectly impacts our attack as well but there are pretty much no excuses for our recent form since Christmas. Just like yesterday, it's just not good enough. No drive, no infiltration, too much of pinging the ball around at the halfway line, ... If we wouldn't have stopped putting 2 or 3 goals past our opponents at Anfield, we would still be close to the top of the league. That's where our problem currently lies, the defense still has been fine/passable during our bad spell. But if you consistently concede at least one goal and can't outscore them anymore like you used to, then you're in trouble of course
I reject the idea that we are done under Klopp and completely burned out - don't reject the idea that we need to rethink some of our ideas and make a few changes here and there. Us not strengthening enough in the offseason is down to our owners (and Covid perhaps), and not Klopp of course. I agree that that has been a mistake, especially at CB. Jota was a good buy. Thiago right now (whilst obviously a class player) doesn't give us the boost that I thought he would, but on the other hand he can maybe help us get that "shift" of play that allows us to play a different style of football that becomes effective again.
How the feck do you read that post and get "he's using not enough transfer activity as an excuse" from it
Then why mention it as if it's a factor when practically everyone else was worse off in the market.How the feck do you read that post and get "he's using not enough transfer activity as an excuse" from it
Because the poster I replied to said this:
I didn't mention it as a factor (for what, anyway?) I just commented this on that subject:
Just my opinion. Not an excuse for anything, not a factor in anything.
Their attacking issues started last season. Just compare the numbers their forwards put in the 18/19 season and the 19/20 season. Their defence has just exposed them.
His bumrush football is becoming ineffective. Teams are no longer playing into his hands and his only other plan B is long ball.
He’s going to implode and leave in a blaze of glory.
He’s going to implode and leave in a blaze of glory.
This.
I had been holding my views back for a couple years because I also wanted to see if my theory and judgement was correct or incorrect but seems like I was right.
Many people think Klopp is a great manager and sure he does seem like a guy who brings charisma, energy and great work ethic to a team but I think he’s very one dimensional. I think even when their best starting 11 is back on the field, it’ll still be manageable to get a result against them. I had thought Thiago would give them a different dimension but now I’ve started to think that he actually slows them down sometimes.
Whereas if you look at a team like city, they’re already pretty good but with KdB they have an added dimension which makes them scary on another level.
It’s for this reason that I’ve started respecting managers & teams like Leicester & Brendan Rodgers a lot. I’d even go so far as to Borussia MunchenGladbach played some amazing dynamic football in the CL and were great to watch. I actually enjoy watching such teams play because they adapt to different teams’ styles. They play fluid football and it doesn’t necessarily always burn the players out. The way Leicester manage to get results against the top 6 teams sometimes is also commendable.
I won’t try to use this occasion to big up our team too much but sometimes I enjoy watching United play more than Liverpool too. It’s slowly starting to show how we can unlock teams without having to rely on long balls or crosses like liverpool does. It makes us unpredictable and scary. Teams will eventually have a touch time preparing to play against us. At the moment our crossing game is weak which will add a new dimension to us once improved and so will a new lethal striker like Haaland for instance.
It's further evidence as to why Fergie was truly special. There was no implosion or burnout. He managed his squad to perfection. He kept his core players and bought and sold effectively around them. Klopp has won the league once and there's already a serious discussion about whether he'll still be at Liverpool next season. Seemingly, his chaotic style of football has been figured out, and at the moment he doesn't appear to know how to adapt.
Klopp's chaotic high octane football hasn't really been on show for atleast a year now. Actually, last season I felt they controlled alot of games without breaking a sweat.
Their midfield especially aren't as press hungry as they were in Klopp's early days.
So, he's developed that side of his team/squad now.
Their forward 3 still display a high intensity pressing style though, and they've been pretty consistent in the first 11 this year.
Problem is, the opposition are just reading them better.
The case seems to be the more pressure they receive, like going down 1 -0 in the 2nd half, the more predictable someone like Salah becomes, who's practically their attack at the present time.
Firmino is in shocking form. Nothing is going right for him. Plus, you do wonder if he's past his sell by date now.
Their fullbacks/wingbacks are horribly out of form too and that's the main stumbling block for Klopp.
Arnold especially had all the time in the world yet again yesterday but his delivery was consistently poor. Far too many over-hit passes into the box last night.
He especially needs to mix his game up.
Their midfield especially aren't as press hungry as they were in Klopp's early days.
So, he's developed that side of his team/squad now.
Their forward 3 still display a high intensity pressing style though, and they've been pretty consistent in the first 11 this year.
Problem is, the opposition are just reading them better.
The case seems to be the more pressure they receive, like going down 1 -0 in the 2nd half, the more predictable someone like Salah becomes, who's practically their attack at the present time.
Firmino is in shocking form. Nothing is going right for him. Plus, you do wonder if he's past his sell by date now.
Their fullbacks/wingbacks are horribly out of form too and that's the main stumbling block for Klopp.
Arnold especially had all the time in the world yet again yesterday but his delivery was consistently poor. Far too many over-hit passes into the box last night.
He especially needs to mix his game up.
I thought for about 80% of the game, Brighton were just excellent at resisting any press by passing it around the Liverpool forwards. So many teams have tried this and failed at Anfield to the point of stupidity at times.
Liverpool had one spell where Brighton couldn't get it out of their own final third because they kept hoofing it. As soon as they went back to passing, they were comfortable again.
They dealt with the long balls well as they have tall defenders who won nearly every aerial battle.
Contrast that to how spurs basically said "please beat us you beautiful red bastards"
Liverpool had one spell where Brighton couldn't get it out of their own final third because they kept hoofing it. As soon as they went back to passing, they were comfortable again.
They dealt with the long balls well as they have tall defenders who won nearly every aerial battle.
Contrast that to how spurs basically said "please beat us you beautiful red bastards"
We have a football group chat on our work message system, created by a Liverpool fan so he and two other scousers could post memes about United, Chelsea and Spurs and dunk on us every day. Strangely quiet in there today. Fecking cowards pretending to be inundated with work.
To be fair we played nothing football against them for over an hour as well.
Fergie was different class. Klopp isn't even going to match Pep's accomplishments in English football, who will probably soon win 3 titles in 4 seasons plus multiple cups. With a 4/5 point lead that they had this should have been back to back titles for Liverpool but they've imploded and City have come roaring back.
As things stand I think Klopps accomplishments in English football have been more impressive than Guardiolas though
Easily. Not even a contest in my eyes.
It would have been borderline miraculous if they sustained the pace of the last two years to be fair. 97 and 99 points with two Champions League finals is just not something that you can for 3 seasons. City after those two seasons where they had 100 and 98 points dropped off last season to 81. Even the might Barcelona slipped a bit, although that was on Pep's 4th season if I remember correctly. Sometimes, there is no particular reason why a team is going through what Liverpool are going through, it's just the more than natural hangover of what they accomplished recently and yes that comes in the form of being a bit slower to get back in position or to counter, a few of your players get injuries or are out of form or even the occasional misfortune in a game here or there. The question is just if they will recover from it next season.
I don’t think there’s much in it. Both bought new teams to win the league. Both heavily rely on their excellent motivational qualities, but can look lacklustre when that wains. Pep spent more money but that’s down to the upper management/scouting and it doesn’t necessarily mean the players were better. Does allow for more longevity with City though, now Klopp is finally facing injuries.
Klopp has run the front 3 into the ground. Salah seems to have endured but you can see that amount of games they’ve played over the years have had an effect on Mane and Firminio. Jota was a smart signing but it’s too early to tell whether they’ve unearthed another potential world class talent. Replacing 2 of front 3 alone at that level and quality is going cost £100 million minimum while taking into account the resale value of Mane and Firminio have dropped substantially. I’m not sure about the quality of the dippers academy either but it seems no one has shown up at the level of Rashford or Greenwood that could make an immediate impact in their starting 11.
Klopp spent money that Liverpool got from selling very smartly for great prices. Pep gets his money handed to him from the human rights abusers that own City.
Liverpool were also at a much much lower ebb when Klopp took over as compared to when Guardiola took over at City, the City board were basically paving the way for Pep's arrival for years anyway.
Klopps also been to a Champions league final and won the trophy. Guardiola hasn't even been past the 1/4s at City, and look at the list of teams they've been knocked out by, Monaco, Spurs, Lyon. They've not even gotten close to winning it.
I don't like defending Klopp here but i think he's done by far a better job. I think Klopp would have more or less matched what Guardiola has at City, maybe not as many League Cups, but I don't know if Guardiola would have built a team and matched Klopps success at Liverpool.
The first point makes no difference if we're talking about the manager's achievement. Morally yeah, City are massive cnuts. The other points are fair enough though.
I
They cant be tired, it has to be motivational
I thought this as well until i remembered the league was paused in March, came back and they half assed it because they had the league won so started this season with basically 6 months without serious football behind them.
They cant be tired, it has to be motivational
The pandemic makes the future of this Liverpool team very interesting. If it hadn't have happened you could see big money sales of one or a couple of their squad who are getting older, then using that money to rebuild. That options gone now. Plus Klopp's history of rebuilding a side, he doesn't really have one does he. The talk of always of a "dynasty" always looked a bit premature.
I can't really help you if you think Benitez and Klopp are comparable. We'd have two titles if we weren't up against Pep but Benitez is almost as good because he almost won it? Ask any person on this forum if they genuinely think Benitez is even half the manager Klopp is. You know that's nonsense.
Every team gets injuries but how would City or United cope with long term injuries to their first choice CB's? City ended up 20 points behind us in January last season because they lost Laporte. Do you think United would be in the title conversation without Maguire and Lindelof or Bailly all season? It's had a spill over effect because we've had to take Fabinho out of midfield completely and place others in his role. We've even had Henderson playing in defense recently and Milner playing four games in 12 days. Injuries have impacted us this season.
On the signing CB's, we weren't going to at all until Matip was ruled out for the season. His injury forced our hand and money isn't readily available to clubs at all times. Every club has been hit by Covid and has had to reassess their options. I do think we made a mistake not replacing Lovren like City did not replacing Kompany in 2019.
We'll agree to disagree and see how things progress. If you're right I'll gladly hold my hands up and admit it.
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I will wait for VVD and Jota to return before writing all these semi-obituaries
same here.
Do you really expect a 29yo who took a year out of the game after suffering cruciate ligament damage to return the same player, though?
Not sure how much impact Jota will have on the side. He scored a few goals, sure, but is not exactly an upgrade on Salah, Mane of Firminho. It will give them another option in attack I guess.
Jota is better than throwing Origi into the mix. He's been living off of those CL goals in 2019 ever since he scored them.
They don't necessarily need to upgrade Salah, Mane and Firmino yet. They need an option when things are not working out. And Origi is a big stepdown. Jota is not that big stepdown.
It all depends on finding a working solution. I think it is very very early to say that Liverpool are on their way down. They still have the good players, many of them in the right age. I would think Klopp will find a way to get them going again.
Also anyone saying City were in 'transition' last season is giving Pep a free pass for a massive drop off. They weren't in transition, they simply had a bad season. The term 'transition' is often used to excuse a teams success or excuse another teams failure. Sometimes big clubs are but Pep doesn't get that excuse for last season.
Their front 3 will be 30 by the time the new season starts. Gini, Hendo, Milner, Thiago, VVD, all will be 30 too. That is their core.