Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

Machine Elements · Feb 6, 2021

Salus Populi Suprema Lex said:
Thirty league goals conceded already; that's pathetic.

I'm sick of raging at this defence; it's now up to Ole. Either he sorts out the centre backs or they will ultimately get him the sack. I don't care how much Maguire cost, he isn't good enough. I'm running out of expletives when describing this defence and the way we defend as a team. Tonight's equaliser was schoolboy stuff in the 95th minute. First priority in the summer is centre backs.

He built that back 5 himself though. Nearly all the back 5 players in the squad are his players.

signed Maguire for £80m
signed AWB for £50m
preferred Lindelöf to Smalling, Bailly, Rojo etc. and made him one of his first choice CBs
gave a stupidly big contract to De Gea despite his apparent decline
gave another stupidly big contract to no2 GK in Henderson
gave Jones a stupidly long contract (and still says he expects Jones back )
signed another average LB

while giving some players away for either peanuts (Smalling, TFM, Darmian) or nothing (Rojo, Romero). And there are people who genuinely believe he's done a great job in rebuilding the defence. He spent so much on defence only to make it worse. Why should he get another £150m to "sort out" the defence when he hasn't got a clue about it? He's got the most expensive CB on his hands who is his signing.

The only player(s) who are performing in that defence are not his players: Luke Shaw and Eric Bailly. Surprise, surprise.

Crashoutcassius · Feb 6, 2021

Any ideas how to fix defence with saying to replace ole or Maguire , two things that aren't likely to happen ? Ddg has not been bad this year. Do we achieve a lot by just getting the best partner we can get for Maguire ?

Roboc7 · Feb 6, 2021

Neither of the centre halves are good enough. Lindelof will be replaced but Maguire won’t, which is why he is a bigger problem, we’ll persist with him for years. I know he isn’t terrible, and at times will do well but he also isn’t good enough.

He’s also the leader and organiser of our defence despite displaying no ability to be good at either.

pascell · Feb 6, 2021

The date this thread was made, probably a lot later than when the problems appeared, tells you all you need to know.

Until the defenders are properly coached and drilled on structure and organisation, we'll continue to have the same problems.

Crashoutcassius · Feb 6, 2021

Machine Elements said:
He built that back 5 himself though. Nearly all the back 5 players in the squad are his players.

signed Maguire for £80m

signed AWB for £50m

preferred Lindelöf to Smalling, Bailly, Rojo etc. and made him one of his first choice CBs

gave a stupidly big contract to De Gea despite his apparent decline

gave another stupidly big contract to no2 GK in Henderson

gave Jones a stupidly long contract (and still says he expects Jones back )

signed another average LB

while giving some players away for either peanuts (Smalling, TFM, Darmian) or nothing (Rojo, Romero). And there are people who genuinely believe he's done a great job in rebuilding the defence. He spent so much on defence only to make it worse. Why should he get another £150m to "sort out" the defence when he hasn't got a clue about it? He's got the most expensive CB on his hands who is his signing.

The only player(s) who are performing in that defence are not his players: Luke Shaw and Eric Bailly. Surprise, surprise.

Another way to say it would be he signed 2 starting defenders and 3 incl telles while pep has signed I don't know how many, probably 8 or 9 , maybe 11 or 12 ?

Klopp has probably signed 6, 7 or 8

So you can make whatever wierd point you want but you'll find it hard to argue ole has built this defence to the same extent as other managers

AFC NimbleThumb · Feb 6, 2021

Crashoutcassius said:
Another way to say it would be he signed 2 starting defenders and 3 incl telles while pep has signed I don't know how many, probably 8 or 9 , maybe 11 or 12 ?

Klopp has probably signed 6, 7 or 8

So you can make whatever wierd point you want but you'll find it hard to argue ole has built this defence to the same extent as other managers

What have Pep &/or Klopp got to do with this?

Salus Populi Suprema Lex · Feb 6, 2021

Machine Elements said:
He built that back 5 himself though. Nearly all the back 5 players in the squad are his players.

signed Maguire for £80m

signed AWB for £50m

preferred Lindelöf to Smalling, Bailly, Rojo etc. and made him one of his first choice CBs

gave a stupidly big contract to De Gea despite his apparent decline

gave another stupidly big contract to no2 GK in Henderson

gave Jones a stupidly long contract (and still says he expects Jones back )

signed another average LB

while giving some players away for either peanuts (Smalling, TFM, Darmian) or nothing (Rojo, Romero). And there are people who genuinely believe he's done a great job in rebuilding the defence. He spent so much on defence only to make it worse. Why should he get another £150m to "sort out" the defence when he hasn't got a clue about it? He's got the most expensive CB on his hands who is his signing.

The only player(s) who are performing in that defence are not his players: Luke Shaw and Eric Bailly. Surprise, surprise.

I think AWB has great potential. He needs to improve positionally, which is certainly possible. Maguire and Lindelof I just think will never be good enough to match our ambition. Ole will just have to bite the bullet on Maguire, accept we overpaid and keep him for back up, if nobody will make a good offer. He can't be kept in the team and as captain simply because he cost a fortune. We are crying out for a world class defender and leader at the back asap.

Mickson · Feb 6, 2021

Machine Elements said:
He built that back 5 himself though. Nearly all the back 5 players in the squad are his players.

signed Maguire for £80m

signed AWB for £50m

preferred Lindelöf to Smalling, Bailly, Rojo etc. and made him one of his first choice CBs

gave a stupidly big contract to De Gea despite his apparent decline

gave another stupidly big contract to no2 GK in Henderson

gave Jones a stupidly long contract (and still says he expects Jones back )

signed another average LB

while giving some players away for either peanuts (Smalling, TFM, Darmian) or nothing (Rojo, Romero). And there are people who genuinely believe he's done a great job in rebuilding the defence. He spent so much on defence only to make it worse. Why should he get another £150m to "sort out" the defence when he hasn't got a clue about it? He's got the most expensive CB on his hands who is his signing.

The only player(s) who are performing in that defence are not his players: Luke Shaw and Eric Bailly. Surprise, surprise.

Fantastic post, backed up with facts. You can't defend it. It's on Ole. Up to him now.

El Jefe · Feb 6, 2021

Our fullbacks and right wing have been our biggest issue for a while now but it's now our defence for me. We're still light on the right wing but Mason's form and Amad's potential makes me believe our fortunes are about to change very soon there.

The only positive I have for our defence, specifically our CBs, is that they are always fit and available. Maguire and Lindelof understand each other and where they should be positioned. Other than that its the area with the least quality in our starting 11 for me. Weak, slow, unassertive and cumbersome. The weaknesses of Maguire and Lindelof means you'll never get a solid defence with both of them.

Throw DDG into the mix, as someone aptly described him as 'GK version of Lindelof' and you have a defence with an extremely soft centre.

A CB is an absolute must in the summer.

Djemba-Djemba · Feb 6, 2021

Proper proper shit defence.

I think it's the worst I've seen at Utd.

Lentwood · Feb 6, 2021

Some statistics for all the 'it woz the defence' posters who are once again hammering our CBs for being so terrible that they conceded three shots on target (arguably two if you excuse the one the GK directly causes) in a game against top six opposition.

These are the statistics for the shots on target faced by the GKs currently playing for our main rivals

GOALKEEPER	SHOTS FACED	SAVED	GA	% SAVES
LLORIS	89	67	22	75
EDERSON	44	32	12	73
ALISSON	52	37	15	71
SCHMEICHEL	86	61	25	71
MENDY	45	31	14	69
PICKFORD	70	48	22	69
DE GEA	69	42	27	61

As you can all clearly see, De Gea is BY FAR the worst GK, in terms of actually saving shots (his job). That's before you even get into the fact that most, if not all, of the GKs above have other standout attributes beyond shot-stopping i.e. Schmeichel = command of area, Ederson = passing out from the back, Alisson = playing as a sweeper-keeper.

Then, I have tried to break that down into something meaningful to show you how big of an impact those numbers have, because on their own I understand it's quite hard to quantify what the difference is between 61% save rate and 71% save rate, for example.

Here is what would happen if a GK with the same percentage save rate as De Gea played for each of our rivals

IF DEA PLAYED FOR…	SHOTS FACED	SAVED	GA	DIFF +/-
TOTTENHAM	89	54	35	13
MAN CITY	44	27	17	5
LIVERPOOL	52	32	20	5
LEICESTER	86	52	34	9
CHELSEA	45	27	18	4
EVERTON	70	43	27	5

As you can see, the difference is stark. Chelsea and Everton, neither of whom have good GKs, are both 4 and 5 goals better off respectively. Man City and Liverpool, despite facing a relatively small number of shots, are still five goals worse off. In the case of Man City, that is nearly a 50% increase on their TOTAL goals conceded this year.

Imagine what would happen if De Gea were in goal at Spurs or Leicester! The stats tell you those teams wouldn't even be in a top four race, having conceded 13 and 9 more goals.

See, this is the difference between the good posters (like me) and the bad ones. Many come on here bleating about stuff, mainly influenced by simple narratives pushed by sh**e pundits who don't know their arse from their elbow.

Some of us take the time to dig a bit deeper. The FACT is that United don't concede an unusual number of shots on target and we don't give away an unusual number of good chances. The FACT (sorry to get a Rafa) is that De Gea saves significantly LESS of these shots than his counterparts at our main rivals.

Again, I repeat, this is even before you consider his other major flaws as a GK, compared with the more aggressive, pro-active goalkeeping styles of players like Alisson, Ederson or Schemeichel.

The FACT is people....you can bleat about the defence all you like but football teams will always concede shots on target. No manager yet has worked out how to stop the opposition having ANY shots. No defence yet has been good enough to go an entire PL season without conceding shots on target (FACT).

Therefore, when teams inevitably DO have shots on target, like the three they had on target tonight (I repeat, one as a result of a direct goalkeeping error), it would be quite nice if the t**t between the sticks would have the good grace not to move out the way of at least one for his £350K per week.

If any of you want to seriously argue with me that our defence is poor because a top six team had three (arguably two) shots on our goal then go for it, I'm all ears....

Djemba-Djemba · Feb 6, 2021

Lentwood said:
Some statistics for all the 'it woz the defence' posters who are once again hammering our CBs for being so terrible that they conceded three shots on target (arguably two if you excuse the one the GK directly causes) in a game against top six opposition.

These are the statistics for the shots on target faced by the GKs currently playing for our main rivals

GOALKEEPER SHOTS FACED SAVED GA % SAVES
LLORIS 89 67 22 75
EDERSON 44 32 12 73
ALISSON 52 37 15 71
SCHMEICHEL 86 61 25 71
MENDY 45 31 14 69
PICKFORD 70 48 22 69
DE GEA 69 42 27 61

As you can all clearly see, De Gea is BY FAR the worst GK, in terms of actually saving shots (his job). That's before you even get into the fact that most, if not all, of the GKs above have other standout attributes beyond shot-stopping i.e. Schmeichel = command of area, Ederson = passing out from the back, Alisson = playing as a sweeper-keeper.

Then, I have tried to break that down into something meaningful to show you how big of an impact those numbers have, because on their own I understand it's quite hard to quantify what the difference is between 61% save rate and 71% save rate, for example.

Here is what would happen if a GK with the same percentage save rate as De Gea played for each of our rivals

IF DEA PLAYED FOR… SHOTS FACED SAVED GA DIFF +/-
TOTTENHAM 89 54 35 13
MAN CITY 44 27 17 5
LIVERPOOL 52 32 20 5
LEICESTER 86 52 34 9
CHELSEA 45 27 18 4
EVERTON 70 43 27 5

As you can see, the difference is stark. Chelsea and Everton, neither of whom have good GKs, are both 4 and 5 goals better off respectively. Man City and Liverpool, despite facing a relatively small number of shots, are still five goals worst off. In the case of Man City, that is nearly a 50% increase on their TOTAL goals conceded this year.

Imagine what would happen if De Gea were in goal at Spurs or Leicester! The stats tell you those teams wouldn't even be in a top four race, having conceded 13 and 9 more goals.

See, this is the difference between the good posters (like me) and the bad ones. Many come on here bleating about stuff, mainly influenced by simple narratives pushed by sh**e pundits who don't know their arse from their elbow.

Some of us take the time to dig a bit deeper. The FACT is that United don't concede that many shots on target and we don't give away many good chances. The FACT (sorry to get a Rafa) is that De Gea saves significantly LESS of these shots than his counterparts at our main rivals.

Again, I repeat, this is even before you consider his other major flaws as a GK, compared with the more aggressive, pro-active goalkeeping styles of players like Alisson, Ederson or Schemeichel.

The FACT is people....you can bleat about the defence all you like but football teams will always concede shots on target. No manager yet has worked out how to stop the opposition having ANY shots. No defence yet has been good enough to go an entire PL season without conceding shots on target (FACT).

Therefore, when teams inevitably DO have shots on target, like the three they had on target tonight (I repeat, one as a result of a direct goalkeeping error), it would be quite nice if the t**t between the sticks would have the good grace not to move out the way of one for his £350K per week.

If any of you want to seriously argue with me that our defence is poor because a top six team had three (arguably two) shots on our goal then go for it, I'm all ears....

I don't think the defence is good enough.

But there's no doubt that our absolute biggest problem is De Gea and your stats back that up.

He's been an albatross around our neck for around 2 years now. He has to be dropped.

Salus Populi Suprema Lex · Feb 6, 2021

Djemba-Djemba said:
Proper proper shit defence.

I think it's the worst I've seen at Utd.

I think at my very first game as a kid, Mike Duxbury and Graeme Hogg were in the defence. It was as bad as it sounds.

SadlerMUFC · Feb 6, 2021

I don't think anyone ever said our defense was fixed. It was just improved. This year we seem to be making horrible mistakes and our keeper isn't bailing us out. I can't remember the last time De Gea had a MOTM performance...

Lentwood · Feb 6, 2021

Djemba-Djemba said:
I don't think the defence is good enough.

But there's no doubt that our absolute biggest problem is De Gea and your stats back that up.

He's been an albatross around our neck for around 2 years now. He has to be dropped.

Of course it's possible to argue that the defence could be better...my point it even talking about the defence right now when we have De Gea in goal is a bit like replacing your windshield wipers to improve the safety of your car after someone cuts your brakes

sp_107 · Feb 6, 2021

Lentwood said:
Some statistics for all the 'it woz the defence' posters who are once again hammering our CBs for being so terrible that they conceded three shots on target (arguably two if you excuse the one the GK directly causes) in a game against top six opposition.

These are the statistics for the shots on target faced by the GKs currently playing for our main rivals

GOALKEEPER SHOTS FACED SAVED GA % SAVES
LLORIS 89 67 22 75
EDERSON 44 32 12 73
ALISSON 52 37 15 71
SCHMEICHEL 86 61 25 71
MENDY 45 31 14 69
PICKFORD 70 48 22 69
DE GEA 69 42 27 61

As you can all clearly see, De Gea is BY FAR the worst GK, in terms of actually saving shots (his job). That's before you even get into the fact that most, if not all, of the GKs above have other standout attributes beyond shot-stopping i.e. Schmeichel = command of area, Ederson = passing out from the back, Alisson = playing as a sweeper-keeper.

Then, I have tried to break that down into something meaningful to show you how big of an impact those numbers have, because on their own I understand it's quite hard to quantify what the difference is between 61% save rate and 71% save rate, for example.

Here is what would happen if a GK with the same percentage save rate as De Gea played for each of our rivals

IF DEA PLAYED FOR… SHOTS FACED SAVED GA DIFF +/-
TOTTENHAM 89 54 35 13
MAN CITY 44 27 17 5
LIVERPOOL 52 32 20 5
LEICESTER 86 52 34 9
CHELSEA 45 27 18 4
EVERTON 70 43 27 5

As you can see, the difference is stark. Chelsea and Everton, neither of whom have good GKs, are both 4 and 5 goals better off respectively. Man City and Liverpool, despite facing a relatively small number of shots, are still five goals worse off. In the case of Man City, that is nearly a 50% increase on their TOTAL goals conceded this year.

Imagine what would happen if De Gea were in goal at Spurs or Leicester! The stats tell you those teams wouldn't even be in a top four race, having conceded 13 and 9 more goals.

See, this is the difference between the good posters (like me) and the bad ones. Many come on here bleating about stuff, mainly influenced by simple narratives pushed by sh**e pundits who don't know their arse from their elbow.

Some of us take the time to dig a bit deeper. The FACT is that United don't concede an unusual number of shots on target and we don't give away an unusual number of good chances. The FACT (sorry to get a Rafa) is that De Gea saves significantly LESS of these shots than his counterparts at our main rivals.

Again, I repeat, this is even before you consider his other major flaws as a GK, compared with the more aggressive, pro-active goalkeeping styles of players like Alisson, Ederson or Schemeichel.

The FACT is people....you can bleat about the defence all you like but football teams will always concede shots on target. No manager yet has worked out how to stop the opposition having ANY shots. No defence yet has been good enough to go an entire PL season without conceding shots on target (FACT).

Therefore, when teams inevitably DO have shots on target, like the three they had on target tonight (I repeat, one as a result of a direct goalkeeping error), it would be quite nice if the t**t between the sticks would have the good grace not to move out the way of at least one for his £350K per week.

If any of you want to seriously argue with me that our defence is poor because a top six team had three (arguably two) shots on our goal then go for it, I'm all ears....

Wow... Great analysis !!! Do you have the same stats for Dean Henderson ? Like to see his shot saves capability

any one think dean is a bette fit than DDG for now ?

Becks-7- · Feb 6, 2021

I‘m fine with the fullbacks. Shaw and AWB are doing well, Telles is a good Backup, especially against deep sitting teams. Walker-Peters would be a good addition so AWB could get a rest sometimes. Would not be cheap of course but if we want to challenge and AWB would be out for some weeks - who would play for him from the current squad?

Bailly was exciting to see but his injury record speaks a different language.
Tuanzebe played that perfect game against PSG and after that he has more yellow cards than any other without nearly having the same time on the pitch.
Lindelöf is not the answer to challenge for trophies - at least not as first choice.
Jones is done obviously.
After an horrible start Maguire improved a lot and I would hope that he just needs a partner - which we could see together with Bailly.

If we can keep Cavani a new CB would be my priority. And some positioning sessions.

Lentwood · Feb 6, 2021

sp_107 said:
Wow... Great analysis !!! Do you have the same stats for Dean Henderson ? Like to see his shot saves capability

any one think dean is a bette fit than DDG for now ?

Well.....Henderson has only played 3.5 games in the PL so the sample size is too small to be of any use. However, for the record, Henderson has faced 14 shots on target and conceded 3 goals, so he's operating at 79%...so how any posters can claim 'Henderson is no better' I have no idea....they must have exclusive access to the training ground or something because it's not based on anything that has happened on the pitch!

Also, for comparison purposes, last season at Sheffield United across a much larger sample size, Henderson made 97 saves from 130 shots for a save percentage of 75%...which if I recall was the best in the league and would now be the joint-best in the league with Hugo Lloris.

So again, where this 'Henderson is no better' thing is coming from is absolutely beyond me

Salus Populi Suprema Lex · Feb 6, 2021

Lentwood said:
Of course it's possible to argue that the defence could be better...my point it even talking about the defence right now when we have De Gea in goal is a bit like replacing your windshield wipers to improve the safety of your car after someone cuts your brakes

I still have more faith in DDG re-discovering his best form than I have in Maguire and Lindelof suddenly becoming far better players. It is true that, whilst form is temporary, class is permanent. Certainly DDG has been inconsistent, but, if I had to choose a new keep or a new centre back, I would go for the centre back and try to find out what's going on with DDG. He's still young for a keeper at 31, but perhaps he has just become stale at United and needs a new challenge? I would hope he can sort it out, but Maguire and Lindelof just don't have the required minimum ability to be mainstays at United, in my humble opinion.

Annihilate Now! · Feb 6, 2021

They have a knack of conceding comedy goals. So that's something right?

Crashoutcassius · Feb 7, 2021

AFC NimbleThumb said:
What have Pep &/or Klopp got to do with this?

Relative comparison

Livewire1974 · Feb 7, 2021

Djemba-Djemba said:
Proper proper shit defence.

I think it's the worst I've seen at Utd.

You must be very young

Livewire1974 · Feb 7, 2021

Annihilate Now! said:
They have a knack of conceding comedy goals. So that's something right?

A lack of leadership, despite our "captain" being the lead defender.

Amir · Feb 7, 2021

Crashoutcassius said:
Do we achieve a lot by just getting the best partner we can get for Maguire ?

It will make a difference as it will balance things more. Will it be perfect? Probably not, it certainly won't be Rio and Vidic, but it's our best bet because Maguire is here to stay for a few years.

Amir · Feb 7, 2021

Lentwood said:
Also, for comparison purposes, last season at Sheffield United across a much larger sample size, Henderson made 97 saves from 130 shots for a save percentage of 75%...which if I recall was the best in the league and would now be the joint-best in the league with Hugo Lloris.

I not a big fan of this stat. It says absolutely nothing about the qualify of chances and shots a keeper deals with.

KiD MoYeS · Feb 7, 2021

Strange because individually I like the back four but as a unit they scare the shit out of me. Not sure what to think of that.

Jacob · Feb 7, 2021

KiD MoYeS said:
Strange because individually I like the back four but as a unit they scare the shit out of me. Not sure what to think of that.

It's the combination of traits. I'd prefer a more aggressive CB next to Maguire.

lsd · Feb 7, 2021

We paid 80 million pounds for a player worse than the player he replaced leaving us having to play 2 defensive midfielders in pretty much every game so we are short creatively.

The only option somehow is spend another 80 million pounds on another defender who can cover the other guy's limitations or the same price if not more on a better defensive midfielder who can do the work both Fred and Mctominay do defensively and allow us another more attacking option as a result.

Personally i would have thought spending the first 80 million pounds would have gotten us a player that didn't need so much cover and help to not be a liability but apparently not

Ludens the Red · Feb 7, 2021

Lentwood said:
Some statistics for all the 'it woz the defence' posters who are once again hammering our CBs for being so terrible that they conceded three shots on target (arguably two if you excuse the one the GK directly causes) in a game against top six opposition.

These are the statistics for the shots on target faced by the GKs currently playing for our main rivals

GOALKEEPER SHOTS FACED SAVED GA % SAVES
LLORIS 89 67 22 75
EDERSON 44 32 12 73
ALISSON 52 37 15 71
SCHMEICHEL 86 61 25 71
MENDY 45 31 14 69
PICKFORD 70 48 22 69
DE GEA 69 42 27 61

As you can all clearly see, De Gea is BY FAR the worst GK, in terms of actually saving shots (his job). That's before you even get into the fact that most, if not all, of the GKs above have other standout attributes beyond shot-stopping i.e. Schmeichel = command of area, Ederson = passing out from the back, Alisson = playing as a sweeper-keeper.

Then, I have tried to break that down into something meaningful to show you how big of an impact those numbers have, because on their own I understand it's quite hard to quantify what the difference is between 61% save rate and 71% save rate, for example.

Here is what would happen if a GK with the same percentage save rate as De Gea played for each of our rivals

IF DEA PLAYED FOR… SHOTS FACED SAVED GA DIFF +/-
TOTTENHAM 89 54 35 13
MAN CITY 44 27 17 5
LIVERPOOL 52 32 20 5
LEICESTER 86 52 34 9
CHELSEA 45 27 18 4
EVERTON 70 43 27 5

As you can see, the difference is stark. Chelsea and Everton, neither of whom have good GKs, are both 4 and 5 goals better off respectively. Man City and Liverpool, despite facing a relatively small number of shots, are still five goals worse off. In the case of Man City, that is nearly a 50% increase on their TOTAL goals conceded this year.

Imagine what would happen if De Gea were in goal at Spurs or Leicester! The stats tell you those teams wouldn't even be in a top four race, having conceded 13 and 9 more goals.

See, this is the difference between the good posters (like me) and the bad ones. Many come on here bleating about stuff, mainly influenced by simple narratives pushed by sh**e pundits who don't know their arse from their elbow.

Some of us take the time to dig a bit deeper. The FACT is that United don't concede an unusual number of shots on target and we don't give away an unusual number of good chances. The FACT (sorry to get a Rafa) is that De Gea saves significantly LESS of these shots than his counterparts at our main rivals.

Again, I repeat, this is even before you consider his other major flaws as a GK, compared with the more aggressive, pro-active goalkeeping styles of players like Alisson, Ederson or Schemeichel.

The FACT is people....you can bleat about the defence all you like but football teams will always concede shots on target. No manager yet has worked out how to stop the opposition having ANY shots. No defence yet has been good enough to go an entire PL season without conceding shots on target (FACT).

Therefore, when teams inevitably DO have shots on target, like the three they had on target tonight (I repeat, one as a result of a direct goalkeeping error), it would be quite nice if the t**t between the sticks would have the good grace not to move out the way of at least one for his £350K per week.

If any of you want to seriously argue with me that our defence is poor because a top six team had three (arguably two) shots on our goal then go for it, I'm all ears....

This is all well and good and i personally think De Gea has been pretty shite for a while and is equally at fault for the defensive woes we’ve had this season as have the centre backs. So don’t think this is a defence of him it isn’t.
But for all this stat posturing you’ve cockily put out m, the type of shots saved isn’t defined or mentioned. What are these saves? What kind of chances are these?

For instance that second and third goal today were essentially what I’d describe as ‘clear cut chances’ given up by mediocre defending. Are Ederson, Mendy and Alison facing these kind of clear cut chances as DeGea is? Probably not.

MattofManchester · Feb 7, 2021

You can bring up all the statistics you want to imply the defence is solid, but it seems the statistic of how many goals we've conceded is never actually brought up.

We're to0 scorers in the league. Even without the Southampton result, we'd have been one of the best going forward.
But we've been conceding goals at a ridiculous rate.
I can't think of many games where we didn't look like conceding at least 1.

We've conceded 30 goals, the highest in the top 10.
I don't really understand how anyone sees that and grovels about our defence not being a problem.

Its been the weak point of this team all season.

2 man midfield · Feb 7, 2021

The thing I don’t get is, you can coach defending. Even fecking Burnley can defend, it’s just a case of coaching. There’s no way that Maguire and Lindelof aren’t as good as Tarkowski and whoever is next to him. It’s how they’re drilled.

We’ve got an attack that can win the league, but we’re being let down by a porous defence. It’s like having a mansion without a front door. We’ve done the hard bit, just finish it off.

hobbers · Feb 7, 2021

To be fair coaching is a huge part of it. It's been obvious under Ole there's been no effort made on defensive coaching. Regardless of how slow and stupid our CBs are it's clear they also haven't even been drilled in the basics. The rate at which we push up the pitch is absolutely laughable. AWB, Maguire and Lindelof all regularly show absolutely no eagerness to push up when we win the ball. It makes everything so much harder.

shabz · Feb 7, 2021

In an ideal world, Luke Shaw is the only one of the defence that would be a starter next season. Everyone else is average. We also need to look at our defensive coaching and change whoever is there as they are clearly not good enough.

Maguire is great in the air but lacking everywhere else.

Lindelof good passer but very soft and indecisive.

AWB great with one on ones, but positionally all over the place.

In a realistic world we need another RB for competition and two quality CBs to replace Lindelof amd one for competition.

el3mel · Feb 7, 2021

Our defense's main problem post Fergie hasn't been solved, which is the fact it's very inconsistent. We can look rock solid in one game then very shaky the next one. This was the same problem back when all Smalling, Jones, Billy and Rojo were starting for us. They were all great on their day but very inconsistent and when they had a day off, they were terrible. Maguire and Lindelof didn't solve this problem, they are similar unfortunately.

Adnan · Feb 7, 2021

Most fans want to see us play a attacking brand of football. But to play a attacking brand of football, a team needs to create a defensive balance on the turn-over when players are caught up field. The two CBs and the most defensive minded midfielder will then be expected to thwart attacks in 1v1 scenarios. And our starting CBs aren't good enough to defend the channels without the fullbacks in attendance or the two midfielders for support. So what's ended up happening is that we look solid defensively if we're defending in numbers but look vulnerable when attempting to sacrifice defensive stability for goals, where we play a more expansive game with players going forward in numbers.

We don't need the new CB to pass like Pirlo but rather someone who is good on the ball, both at passing and dribbling. But the new CB must be strong at defending the channel and at defending deep. Our league also tests a CB physically and aerially like no other league in Europe, so signing someone short at CB is a big no IMO.

Maguire is a fellow Yorkshire man and I'd love to see him do well. But if I'm honest, apart from his ability aerially he's bang average. And people know my thoughts on Lindelof for a few years now which haven't changed. But I hope we get the CB that Ole wants in the summer window, and until then I look forward to seeing the outlook change game by game with players going from the worst to the best with each passing game-week in the eyes of the fans.

Isotope · Feb 7, 2021

MattofManchester said:
You can bring up all the statistics you want to imply the defence is solid, but it seems the statistic of how many goals we've conceded is never actually brought up.

We're to0 scorers in the league. Even without the Southampton result, we'd have been one of the best going forward.
But we've been conceding goals at a ridiculous rate.
I can't think of many games where we didn't look like conceding at least 1.

We've conceded 30 goals, the highest in the top 10.
I don't really understand how anyone sees that and grovels about our defence not being a problem.

Its been the weak point of this team all season.

At rate equals to that season when Mou was looking to get sack, when some love to use that to shit on Smalling. I wonder what happen to those people?

Red Company · Feb 7, 2021

We need not one, but two CBs now.

Also need a new GK to compete with Hendo. DDG should leave gracefully before he has to leave sourly.

amolbhatia50k · Feb 7, 2021

Machine Elements said:
He built that back 5 himself though. Nearly all the back 5 players in the squad are his players.

signed Maguire for £80m

signed AWB for £50m

preferred Lindelöf to Smalling, Bailly, Rojo etc. and made him one of his first choice CBs

gave a stupidly big contract to De Gea despite his apparent decline

gave another stupidly big contract to no2 GK in Henderson

gave Jones a stupidly long contract (and still says he expects Jones back )

signed another average LB

while giving some players away for either peanuts (Smalling, TFM, Darmian) or nothing (Rojo, Romero). And there are people who genuinely believe he's done a great job in rebuilding the defence. He spent so much on defence only to make it worse. Why should he get another £150m to "sort out" the defence when he hasn't got a clue about it? He's got the most expensive CB on his hands who is his signing.

The only player(s) who are performing in that defence are not his players: Luke Shaw and Eric Bailly. Surprise, surprise.

That's a bit depressing. So much spent and still such an average defense. Two important points to note here
- Even leaving individual ability and mistakes aside, we don't look a better drilled team defensively compared to what we were 2-3 years back. We aren't getting stronger in our collective organisation which is the whole point of coaching a unit.
- We aren't even one of those super attacking teams. We score goals when individuals turn it on, but nobody looks at this Manchester United team and thinks of how we really over commit as an attacking force.

nainaisson · Feb 7, 2021

Isotope said:
At rate equals to that season when Mou was looking to get sack, when some love to use that to shit on Smalling. I wonder what happen to those people?

Not sure if you've noticed, but we build out from the back now, which requires technically strong centre-backs, i.e., not Smalling. If we were still hoofing the ball to Fellaini, Zlatan, or Lukaku, Smalling would be perfectly... acceptable as a squad option.

Isotope · Feb 7, 2021

nainaisson said:
Not sure if you've noticed, but we build out from the back now, which requires technically strong centre-backs, i.e., not Smalling. If we were still hoofing the ball to Fellaini, Zlatan, or Lukaku, Smalling would be perfectly... acceptable as a squad option.

I know. That's not the point though. People shit on Smalling, using that Mou's last season to show how improved the backline defensively since adding 135m to defence. Which is a silly comparison to begin with, when using that season as comparison.

Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

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