The straw that broke the camels back?
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Borys
Statistics Wizard
He's been getting a lot of criticism this season. When I first raised the issue of his poor shot stopping ratio (must've been about 2 months ago), I was told it's "normal" for De Gea to have better second half of the season. Well I'd love that to be true but somehow looks unlikely.Where were all these posters a few games ago? Strange.
bosnian_red
Worst scout to ever exist
Criticisms come out after the goalkeeper costs us an easy 3 points where 8 of the 11 players performed really well. We dominated that game, and then De Gea gifted them a way back in. And then in the end when it's a 50/50 ball where a player needs to give his all to get the result and throw his body on the line, he pussies out of the challenge knowing full well that you'll give a goal away and the result away. That's the unforgiveable part. All too often this season he's been too soft on some tackles, doesn't throw himself in areas of danger, doesn't put his body on the line and dive at the players feet sometimes like a top keeper should. He's been a great servant, but it's time. He's not good enough anymore. It's been 2 calendar years of garbage performance.Where were all these posters a few games ago? Strange.
Regulus Arcturus Black
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Fans weren’t up in arms after a relatively error free spell but are again after yet another blunder show?Where were all these posters a few games ago? Strange.
You find that strange?
You want fans slagging players performances after 6/10 games now do you so that when a 1/10 pops up they somehow now have earned the right?
feck me you’re tedious with this attempt at being the “bestest fan on the caf” shit. Every single thread, every single week you’re at it, calling anyone and everyone and trying to prove how you do fandom better.
Give it a rest man, DDG has cost Ole so much and is clearly in decline, it happens to everyone eventually.
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Or nothing new to moan about that doesn’t fit their view?The straw that broke the camels back?
Many high profile GKs make mistakes see tonight’s game.He's been getting a lot of criticism this season. When I first raised the issue of his poor shot stopping ratio (must've been about 2 months ago), I was told it's "normal" for De Gea to have better second half of the season. Well I'd love that to be true but somehow looks unlikely.
De Gea was not at fault for the goals though Maguire plays everyone onside for the last goal which you don’t expect any GK to save (you do expect them to fly at the attacker though) so I find it very harsh that the blame falls at him. Even had he flung himself at it it’s a tap in for any decent striker once in that position.Criticisms come out after the goalkeeper costs us an easy 3 points where 8 of the 11 players performed really well. We dominated that game, and then De Gea gifted them a way back in. And then in the end when it's a 50/50 ball where a player needs to give his all to get the result and throw his body on the line, he pussies out of the challenge knowing full well that you'll give a goal away and the result away. That's the unforgiveable part. All too often this season he's been too soft on some tackles, doesn't throw himself in areas of danger, doesn't put his body on the line and dive at the players feet sometimes like a top keeper should. He's been a great servant, but it's time. He's not good enough anymore. It's been 2 calendar years of garbage performance.
The first one he saves what he can and Shaw should be dealing with the centre.
It’s not a blunder show though the fact the ball falls to DCL in that position at that moment is nothing to do with De Gea the defence could have dealt with it better and any striker worth their salt finishes that chance off whether or not De Gea comes out.Fans weren’t up in arms after a relatively error free spell but are again after yet another blunder show?
You find that strange?
You want fans slagging players performances after 6/10 games now do you so that when a 1/10 pops up they somehow now have earned the right?
feck me you’re tedious with this attempt at being the “bestest fan on the caf” shit. Every single thread, every single week you’re at it, calling anyone and everyone and trying to prove how you do fandom better.
Give it a rest man, DDG has cost Ole so much and is clearly in decline, it happens to everyone eventually.
I agree it’s frustrating he didn’t try to because it would shift the % slightly but I can’t honestly observe that goal and think De Gea cost us. Maguires position played DCL onside nobody dealt with the first ball and he ends up with a tap in.
You keep trying to push this narrative of me wanting to be the best fan or whatever and that is wearing very thin. You seem to completely ignore the criticism I put out as having a nuanced view doesn’t seem to appeal to you.
Perhaps I’m merely pointing out that there are quite a few reactionary posters who can be led by their hearts not their head for example those saying to kill De Gea in this very thread last night.
Borys
Statistics Wizard
You represent the group of posters that believe Goalkeeper is never at fault ("nobody would've saved that") and should be redundant ("because all threatening situations should be dealt with before by defenders").Or nothing new to moan about that doesn’t fit their view?
Many high profile GKs make mistakes see tonight’s game.
De Gea was not at fault for the goals though Maguire plays everyone onside for the last goal which you don’t expect any GK to save (you do expect them to fly at the attacker though) so I find it very harsh that the blame falls at him. Even had he flung himself at it it’s a tap in for any decent striker once in that position.
The first one he saves what he can and Shaw should be dealing with the centre.
It’s not a blunder show though the fact the ball falls to DCL in that position at that moment is nothing to do with De Gea the defence could have dealt with it better and any striker worth their salt finishes that chance off whether or not De Gea comes out.
I agree it’s frustrating he didn’t try to because it would shift the % slightly but I can’t honestly observe that goal and think De Gea cost us. Maguires position played DCL onside nobody dealt with the first ball and he ends up with a tap in.
You keep trying to push this narrative of me wanting to be the best fan or whatever and that is wearing very thin. You seem to completely ignore the criticism I put out as having a nuanced view doesn’t seem to appeal to you.
Perhaps I’m merely pointing out that there are quite a few reactionary posters who can be led by their hearts not their head for example those saying to kill De Gea in this very thread last night.
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Not at all true. When he makes mistakes I will absolutely acknowledge them.You represent the group of posters that believe Goalkeeper is never at fault ("nobody would've saved that") and should be redundant ("because all threatening situations should be dealt with before by defenders").
I represent my own views and nothing more. Stop trying to make simple groups of haters and apologists I am neither.
Check the XG for the last goal and you’ll see it’s the equivalent of a tap in. A clubs top CF unmarked in the 6 yard box.
Explain to me how De Gea is meant to deal with the initial cross himself given the first flick on into the box happens on the edge of it? Otherwise yes that is the defences job or conversely I could throw back that you think all situations should be dealt with by the GK and so defence is never at fault etc
Let’s not be lazy and if you want to discuss it we can but discuss my points on this specific incident.
Wilt
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Sanchez #2
A shadow of the player he once was, with a ridiculous contract.
A shadow of the player he once was, with a ridiculous contract.
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What’s your take on the stats so far this year then that show him among the worst performers in the league?Not at all true. When he makes mistakes I will absolutely acknowledge them.
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Which stats are you specifically referring to?What’s your take on the stats so far this year then that show him among the worst performers in the league?
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I’ll update these later but these were correct as of yesterday morning.Which stats are you specifically referring to?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/david-de-gea-2020-21-performances.457015/post-26774458
Anustart89
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The point is not that the xG is high once the shot is taken. The point is that the shot should not be taken because de Gea, had he had an ounce of bravery in his body, should’ve come and collected it before DCL had time to take the shot. It shouldn’t have even been registered in the xG statistics because the goalkeeper shouldn’t have allowed the shot.Not at all true. When he makes mistakes I will absolutely acknowledge them.
I represent my own views and nothing more. Stop trying to make simple groups of haters and apologists I am neither.
Check the XG for the last goal and you’ll see it’s the equivalent of a tap in. A clubs top CF unmarked in the 6 yard box.
Explain to me how De Gea is meant to deal with the initial cross himself given the first flick on into the box happens on the edge of it? Otherwise yes that is the defences job or conversely I could throw back that you think all situations should be dealt with by the GK and so defence is never at fault etc
Let’s not be lazy and if you want to discuss it we can but discuss my points on this specific incident.
For example, last night Alisson passed the ball to a city player that ended up with Sterling heading the ball in from a yard out. Looking at that chance it’s an xG of probably 0.9, isn’t it? Could you use that argument there too to absolve Alisson of blame because Sterling basically scored a tap-in? Obviously, you’d argue that the shot shouldn’t have been there to be made due to Alisson’s mistake, right?
And once or twice is fine, but this is a recurring element with de Gea. Headers from two yards out are also high xG shots, but a goalkeeper that isn’t rooted to his line doesn’t allow players to head the ball uncontested two yards from goals. He’s had those weaknesses for many years now but they’ve been overlooked due to his shot stopping being good. Now that the shot stopping has turned ordinary, and even worse than that, his weaknesses come to the fore even more.
Borys
Statistics Wizard
See video in this post - Owen at the end explains exactly how I feel about De Gea. He's not even expected to save that shot, the thing is he should make it difficult for the striker. It's happening all the time, it seems everything just flies past him and the same people defend him because "he can't be expected to save that". Which is true if he stand on the line all time.Not at all true. When he makes mistakes I will absolutely acknowledge them.
I represent my own views and nothing more. Stop trying to make simple groups of haters and apologists I am neither.
Check the XG for the last goal and you’ll see it’s the equivalent of a tap in. A clubs top CF unmarked in the 6 yard box.
Explain to me how De Gea is meant to deal with the initial cross himself given the first flick on into the box happens on the edge of it? Otherwise yes that is the defences job or conversely I could throw back that you think all situations should be dealt with by the GK and so defence is never at fault etc
Let’s not be lazy and if you want to discuss it we can but discuss my points on this specific incident.
If you don't see any problem with De Gea performance against Everton than I guess you will be delighten with any keeper we sign to replace him.
For more stats you can also view this post, and this post will confirm the problem lies with De Gea rather than our back 4.
Exactly.The point is not that the xG is high once the shot is taken. The point is that the shot should not be taken because de Gea, had he had an ounce of bravery in his body, should’ve come and collected it before DCL had time to take the shot. It shouldn’t have even been registered in the xG statistics because the goalkeeper shouldn’t have allowed the shot.
For example, last night Alisson passed the ball to a city player that ended up with Sterling heading the ball in from a yard out. Looking at that chance it’s an xG of probably 0.9, isn’t it? Could you use that argument there too to absolve Alisson of blame because Sterling basically scored a tap-in? Obviously, you’d argue that the shot shouldn’t have been there to be made due to Alisson’s mistake, right?
And once or twice is fine, but this is a recurring element with de Gea. Headers from two yards out are also high xG shots, but a goalkeeper that isn’t rooted to his line doesn’t allow players to head the ball uncontested two yards from goals. He’s had those weaknesses for many years now but they’ve been overlooked due to his shot stopping being good. Now that the shot stopping has turned ordinary, and even worse than that, his weaknesses come to the fore even more.
The second paragraph is a bit extreme example. Best explanation is when GK misses a cross and striker does a tap in. He's not expected to save that shot but the striker should never get a chance to shoot - that's the point.
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Alfie092
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That is true. While at the moment, as delusional as I may be, I believe we still have a slim shot at the title. While that is the case, it will be a tough call for Ole to decide if he should drop DDG immediately and give Henderson a chance now. If it was me, I would let the gap widen slightly more between us and City and then we could give Henderson an extended run until the end of the season because IMO DDG still has the edge over Henderson (while many may disagree with me).I think we have to give Henderson a good run asap to figure out if he is good enough. No point buying a top keeper if we have a potential club legend on the bench.
Henderson would get at least 10-12 PL games if we was to stick with DDG for a few more matches. Then we have the FA Cup and Europa League to give extra games too, then come the end of the season he would have played at least 25-30 games to judge him on. Because if he is ok at best in those games, I wouldn't want to risk the GK position heading into next season being uncertain!
mancan92
Full Member
What? People have been calling him out for the last 2 years.Where were all these posters a few games ago? Strange.
AltiUn
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He's been called out quite a lot this season for goals in matches.Where were all these posters a few games ago? Strange.
Against Tottenham in the 1-6.
Against Istanbul in the 4-1.
Against PSG in the 1-3, although I found the criticism for that one harsh in hindsight.
Against Southampton in the 2-3.
Against Liepzig in the 3-2.
Against Leicester in the 2-2.
Against Sheffield United in the 1-2.
Against Everton in the 3-3.
Regulus Arcturus Black
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Benito thinks everyone's a reactionary idiot if they aren't in here after every 6/10 or 7/10 performance also slating him.He's been called out quite a lot this season for goals in matches.
Against Tottenham in the 1-6.
Against Istanbul in the 4-1.
Against PSG in the 1-3, although I found the criticism for that one harsh in hindsight.
Against Southampton in the 2-3.
Against Liepzig in the 3-2.
Against Leicester in the 2-2.
Against Sheffield United in the 1-2.
Against Everton in the 3-3.
Bizarre take from a bizarre bloke.
Classical Mechanic
Full Member
To be honest I have been tempted to come in and explain how his 'amazing' performaces haven't actually been when you look at the stats but decided against it. We'd won the games and I didn't want to be a negative Norman.
AltiUn
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Think @Borys has been doing a great job of that in his data analysis thread.To be honest I have been tempted to come in and explain how his 'amazing' performaces haven't actually been when you look at the stats but decided against it. We'd won the games and I didn't want to be a negative Norman.
Morpheus 7
Full Member
It's time for Henderson, Dave is done at United long term. Too many mistakes, soft at set piece's after all these years. He's not the elite keeper he once was, mistakes have crept in since his horror show against Portugal. He's costing us regularly now, Henderson deserves a good run in the team. We need to move De Gea on in the Summer. He's one of the best keepers we have ever had, every keeper performs different later in the career. De Gea is having lapses in concentration, a man that won is points is doing the opposite. No time for sentiment, he wanted to leave us before. We need to think what's best for us, save some wages and get a replacement.
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Thing is, De Gea is performing at such a low level this season, statistically among the worst in the league, that I don't really see what we gain by keeping him in. Even if Henderson is bang average, he'll be an improvement. And if we give Henderson a good long run til the end of the season, then we get the best possible chance to decide if we need to recruit for the GK position in the summer or not. As you say, its essential that this gets nailed before the end of the season, we can't go into next season with the same uncertainty over our keepers.That is true. While at the moment, as delusional as I may be, I believe we still have a slim shot at the title. While that is the case, it will be a tough call for Ole to decide if he should drop DDG immediately and give Henderson a chance now. If it was me, I would let the gap widen slightly more between us and City and then we could give Henderson an extended run until the end of the season because IMO DDG still has the edge over Henderson (while many may disagree with me).
Henderson would get at least 10-12 PL games if we was to stick with DDG for a few more matches. Then we have the FA Cup and Europa League to give extra games too, then come the end of the season he would have played at least 25-30 games to judge him on. Because if he is ok at best in those games, I wouldn't want to risk the GK position heading into next season being uncertain!
There certainly are a lot of reactionary posters here, but I'm not sure this subject is the worst one for that. Speaking for myself who has backed De Gea consistently through his ups and downs, I can't forgive that performance on the weekend.Benito thinks everyone's a reactionary idiot if they aren't in here after every 6/10 or 7/10 performance also slating him.
Bizarre take from a bizarre bloke.
I said at the time, I can forgive him for being in poor form but what I won't accept is a gutless performance. And that was a gutless performance.
I don't care who is to blame defensively for the first goal (slow Maguire etc) you don't softly parry the ball straight towards the penalty spot. It wasn't even a hard cross. Then to compound that massive error which gave Everton all the impetus they needed in the game he is totally gutless for the third goal. He has to come out and take everything, the ball and the man. He steps out and then bottles it.
I'd give Henderson a run for a few games now. You can't have your number 1 pulling out of challenges after already dropping a howler. He should have been torn apart in the dressing room after that, the players are too nice, need a Keano type lighting a fire up their ar$e for performances like this.
Hughes35
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I really like DDG. Seems a top guy and had a couple of years where he made some outrageous saves.
This issue is, when he isn't making crazy stops he doesn't have much else. VDS rarely made top saves but his basic game was just sooooooo good. He communicated, claimed crosses, was big, commanding, good handling and just generally made the right decisions.
When DDG isn't making saves, he is below average at most other stuff. He is one of our many problems unfortunately. I think Ole knows it too but he also knows Henderson either isn't yet ready, or never will be ready..... Hopefully it's the former.
This issue is, when he isn't making crazy stops he doesn't have much else. VDS rarely made top saves but his basic game was just sooooooo good. He communicated, claimed crosses, was big, commanding, good handling and just generally made the right decisions.
When DDG isn't making saves, he is below average at most other stuff. He is one of our many problems unfortunately. I think Ole knows it too but he also knows Henderson either isn't yet ready, or never will be ready..... Hopefully it's the former.
laughtersassassin
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I don't see how people are defending him still?
How long now have we been saying he has to do better? It's not a blip anymore he simply costs us points.
It's time to give Deano a run out and see if he can get more comfortable in goal. He commands his box better than Dave and his save % is actually better although that might be because he has played less.
Still we know what we'll get from Dave. We will conceed set prices galore. Let's try something else.
Hoping Deano a good game against West Ham and gets the nod for the weekend.
How long now have we been saying he has to do better? It's not a blip anymore he simply costs us points.
It's time to give Deano a run out and see if he can get more comfortable in goal. He commands his box better than Dave and his save % is actually better although that might be because he has played less.
Still we know what we'll get from Dave. We will conceed set prices galore. Let's try something else.
Hoping Deano a good game against West Ham and gets the nod for the weekend.
NicolaSacco
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I do think there needs to be some context here. Look at a keeper like Neuer who frequently defends his whole area rather than his line. And look at the amount of times he
I’d be interested to know what his CBs think of him, not that they’d say anything negative publicly. Maguire must have been quite accustomed to playing with Schmeichel for example. Must be an enormous change to adapt to.I don't see how people are defending him still?
How long now have we been saying he has to do better? It's not a blip anymore he simply costs us points.
It's time to give Deano a run out and see if he can get more comfortable in goal. He commands his box better than Dave and his save % is actually better although that might be because he has played less.
Still we know what we'll get from Dave. We will conceed set prices galore. Let's try something else.
Hoping Deano a good game against West Ham and gets the nod for the weekend.
crossy1686
career ending
Been saying it for years now, we never should have given him that new contract. He was on the decline then and didn't want to be here. His world-class performances were/are getting rarer and rarer than they once were and the reality is we're stuck with a GK who has been on the wane for years and doesn't do the basics well enough to be considered a regular starter for an elite team.
We should have sold him and got Kasper in ages ago but here we are. Hoping for some sort of shakeup in the summer, selling De Gea, Pogba and Martial could see a lot of funds available for a biggish overhaul, which would be welcomed at this point.
We should have sold him and got Kasper in ages ago but here we are. Hoping for some sort of shakeup in the summer, selling De Gea, Pogba and Martial could see a lot of funds available for a biggish overhaul, which would be welcomed at this point.
The question is who do we replace him with?
We try strike some sort of player plus cash for Oblak? Bit Football Manger, but you never know...The question is who do we replace him with?
mancan92
Full Member
Literally 19 out of the 20 goal keepers in the league this season are statistically better than him so basically anyone.The question is who do we replace him with?
I like oblak but I’m coming round to the idea of the cheaper Pope, who looks to be a very solid all round keeper who can dominate his areaWe try strike some sort of player plus cash for Oblak? Bit Football Manger, but you never know...
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Short term, Henderson. He needs a run. If he turns out not to be good enough, Nick Pope is currently the best in the league and would probably be obtainable.The question is who do we replace him with?
Alfie092
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Definitely agree and I would be tempted to make Henderson our number 1 from this point on to give us a proper evaluation on him. However, there is no guarantee that Henderson would be an improvement, who is to say he won't end up making the same mistakes as DDG, if not worse? Whatever we do, it's a huge decision to make!Thing is, De Gea is performing at such a low level this season, statistically among the worst in the league, that I don't really see what we gain by keeping him in. Even if Henderson is bang average, he'll be an improvement. And if we give Henderson a good long run til the end of the season, then we get the best possible chance to decide if we need to recruit for the GK position in the summer or not. As you say, its essential that this gets nailed before the end of the season, we can't go into next season with the same uncertainty over our keepers.
Borys
Statistics Wizard
I'm not so sure it's that huge right now. We are in a good position in the league (likely to finish top 4), but we're very unlikely to win the league so it's the right time to experiment with Henderson. We're fighting for FA cup only.Definitely agree and I would be tempted to make Henderson our number 1 from this point on to give us a proper evaluation on him. However, there is no guarantee that Henderson would be an improvement, who is to say he won't end up making the same mistakes as DDG, if not worse? Whatever we do, it's a huge decision to make!
However, if we do nothing it will be huge decision to make in the summer and we should start looking for solution NOW, because whatever is the question, De Gea is not the answer.
Caesar2290
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The handling of the De Gea situation clearly shows why we're not a top club anymore.
Let's look at 2 of our main rivals for comparison.
Shay Given used to be City's number 1 a couple of years back. Just like De Gea, he was blessed with insane reflexes, but limited in everything else. Once a better Gk in Hart matured and was available, Given was instantly dropped to the bench.
Similarly at Chelsea with a declining Cech. As soon as Courtois came back from his loan, Cech was benched and Courtois became the unidsputed number 1. No faffing around, no "he used to be good 50 years ago". None of this meek let's try to be inclusive bullshit.
Top clubs always plan for the future. And they're ruthless. We're anything but that.
Let's look at 2 of our main rivals for comparison.
Shay Given used to be City's number 1 a couple of years back. Just like De Gea, he was blessed with insane reflexes, but limited in everything else. Once a better Gk in Hart matured and was available, Given was instantly dropped to the bench.
Similarly at Chelsea with a declining Cech. As soon as Courtois came back from his loan, Cech was benched and Courtois became the unidsputed number 1. No faffing around, no "he used to be good 50 years ago". None of this meek let's try to be inclusive bullshit.
Top clubs always plan for the future. And they're ruthless. We're anything but that.
DoomSlayer
New Member
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepers/Premier-League-StatsWhich stats are you specifically referring to?
Second lowest in % of shots saved, 62.9%, whereas Ederson has the best stats with 80.5%. Swap the 2 GKs and we'd probably be comfortably in 1st place right now.
You can check the advanced stats, they paint an even worse picture of his performances so far. I'd go on to say that De Gea has been one of the main reasons that our team looks so shaky in defense, though some of the individual errors by defenders or midfielders have also been inexcusable, but a top keeper brings such a calming effect to the whole unit, so it's definitely worth pointing that out.
DDG needs to be benched for good, how much more time is needed, how much more failures do we need to suffer until we realise the reality of the situation?
croadyman
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Yeah he absolutely needs to be benched but don't see it happening with the money he is onhttps://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepers/Premier-League-Stats
Second lowest in % of shots saved, 62.9%, whereas Ederson has the best stats with 80.5%. Swap the 2 GKs and we'd probably be comfortably in 1st place right now.
You can check the advanced stats, they paint an even worse picture of his performances so far. I'd go on to say that De Gea has been one of the main reasons that our team looks so shaky in defense, though some of the individual errors by defenders or midfielders have also been inexcusable, but a top keeper brings such a calming effect to the whole unit, so it's definitely worth pointing that out.
DDG needs to be benched for good, how much more time is needed, how much more failures do we need to suffer until we realise the reality of the situation?
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