It's the Sheffield loss that fecked us up, unfortunately. Drawing with Everton happens, but losing to the bottom of the league while a team like City is chasing you is a disaster for a title challenging team.
Not in the Race?
- Thread starter Hughie77
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
City are just in a type of form with their in depth squad that no manager could reach with this current squad.
Pep apparently went back to basics rather than over complicating his tactics and it shows. They are near perfection whilst our squad is not.
Pep apparently went back to basics rather than over complicating his tactics and it shows. They are near perfection whilst our squad is not.
Are we a good team on bad form?
Or are we a bad team on good form?
Or are we a bad team on good form?
I’d argue we should be finishing with 80 points at least with this squad so that is interesting.
Quite impossible to challenge for anything with those tally’s year in year out. At the end of next season if we don’t break 80 points again questions will start to pop up for sure of where this plan is going.
What a cheap cop out. We're inconsistent and bi-polar in terms of performance and that's something a manager should aspire to fix rather than being resigned to it. The last 7 points we dropped were not as a result of not being good enough, but as a result of a lack of energy focus and discipline, and completely avoidable
Football is a funny old game.
This season, moreso than any in recent memory it’s been about the squad, rather than the first 11, or even first 16 players.
Every club seems to have been blighted by injuries, coronavirus cases, fixture congestion, loss of home support, advantage of no away support and the general lack of inability to prepare.
The advantage that Manchester have had and I’d argue West Ham as well, as that the stadiums they have, weren’t built for football originally. They haven’t felt the impact of loss of them like other clubs have.
Manchester City have also got the biggest and most expensive squad in the league. Surely you’d consider a massive failure on their part of they didn’t go on to win the league.
The race itself is now down to top finishing in the top 4. At the moment I’d say that that it’s three teams from seven for those spots.
I’d like to think Manchester United and Leicester take two of those slots this season.
It will click at Liverpool at some point and they didn’t deserve to lose that game against Leicester yesterday. They were far the superior team and on a different day would have sealed the game before half time.
Chelsea look to be improving already under Tunchel, however we need to see if it’s new manager bounce or his tactical knowledge will see them over the edge to push Liverpool.
Villa, Everton, Spurs and West Ham I feel will drop away.
This season, moreso than any in recent memory it’s been about the squad, rather than the first 11, or even first 16 players.
Every club seems to have been blighted by injuries, coronavirus cases, fixture congestion, loss of home support, advantage of no away support and the general lack of inability to prepare.
The advantage that Manchester have had and I’d argue West Ham as well, as that the stadiums they have, weren’t built for football originally. They haven’t felt the impact of loss of them like other clubs have.
Manchester City have also got the biggest and most expensive squad in the league. Surely you’d consider a massive failure on their part of they didn’t go on to win the league.
The race itself is now down to top finishing in the top 4. At the moment I’d say that that it’s three teams from seven for those spots.
I’d like to think Manchester United and Leicester take two of those slots this season.
It will click at Liverpool at some point and they didn’t deserve to lose that game against Leicester yesterday. They were far the superior team and on a different day would have sealed the game before half time.
Chelsea look to be improving already under Tunchel, however we need to see if it’s new manager bounce or his tactical knowledge will see them over the edge to push Liverpool.
Villa, Everton, Spurs and West Ham I feel will drop away.
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Under Ole we have never been good at being at the top. We play our best when we are chasing. Things usually crumble when we are on the cusp of our main goal. We won't win the league but I think we might put in a good fight.
This.
City have had the ability to replace players not in form, injuries, players who have left with players that fit them - players they bought seasons in advance.
United on the other hand have an improved squad and a manager who consistently rotates but it has significant gaps in terms of quality in position to really go against a squad like City.
After leading 2-0 and 3-2 with a few seconds left ?
I think that just highlights the trouble of this season though.
So many bizarre results.
Aston Villa putting 7 past Liverpool sent a message out early.
I believe that the gap will be double digits after we play City. However, we still need to follow them as closely as possible, as if they are too comfortable in the prem, they will sacrifice a couple of matches for the sake of CL.
And being 8 points come the end of the season, as opposed to 20, would be progress. Less would be even better.
To stand a chance we probably have to win our next 4 or 5 which includes to away trips to Chelsea and City. It's not impossible but it's unlikely.
I think the title is gone now personally. But I won't get too down about that as in August I predicted us to finish 4th after Chelsea looked to have had a great window.
If we can finish comfortably top 4 this time and maybe win a cup then Ole will have progressed. A mixture of glazernomics and Covid meant our summer transfer window was 2nd, 3rd or even 4th choices. It's not Oles fault our board are inept.
I think the title is gone now personally. But I won't get too down about that as in August I predicted us to finish 4th after Chelsea looked to have had a great window.
If we can finish comfortably top 4 this time and maybe win a cup then Ole will have progressed. A mixture of glazernomics and Covid meant our summer transfer window was 2nd, 3rd or even 4th choices. It's not Oles fault our board are inept.
That’s a brilliant point actually.
If Manchester City go deep into the UCL, then surely they’ll need to rotate.
A few injuries and you never know.
14 - 15 games left. Who knows.
Their attack is about to get better with KDB and Aguero's return.
So for their title bid to fall apart their defence would have to absolutely collapse upon itself, which seems extremely unlikely.
It's not just that they're keeping clean sheets, their underlying stats are remarkable too. They could get quite a bit worse defensively and still be better than us and Leicester in that regard.
As for injuries disrupting them, I struggle to see that too. Even if their CBs were to get injured, they have Laporte to come in who was arguably percieved as the best of their CBs before the season started. Hell they were without their most important defender yesterday and looked rock solid.
And it's quite clear that their defensive performance has been down to coaching as much or more than it is down to the individual players. You don't prevent chances to that degree just by having good defenders.
So for their title bid to fall apart their defence would have to absolutely collapse upon itself, which seems extremely unlikely.
It's not just that they're keeping clean sheets, their underlying stats are remarkable too. They could get quite a bit worse defensively and still be better than us and Leicester in that regard.
As for injuries disrupting them, I struggle to see that too. Even if their CBs were to get injured, they have Laporte to come in who was arguably percieved as the best of their CBs before the season started. Hell they were without their most important defender yesterday and looked rock solid.
And it's quite clear that their defensive performance has been down to coaching as much or more than it is down to the individual players. You don't prevent chances to that degree just by having good defenders.
It's not one result that has put us out of it, its the fact we're not consistent or good enough to challenge for the title, we've had far too many dodgy performances and results. We all had a bit of fun and daft hope, but the truth is City are just on another level to us right now.
We’re still in the FA Cup, we’re in the Europa League and by Wednesday, City will have played that game in hand and will be at least 5 points clear of us with a better goal difference. You are right though, we did blow an 8 point lead in April 2012, but then the two sides were reasonably even (although they did beat us twice that season including the 1-6 humiliation). Today, we are not even. We are not even close to being even, so there’s far less chance of us hauling them in, not because they are infallible, but because we are highly unlikely to win every game between now and the end of the season, which is what it’s going to take.
City have already won the league. What is remotely weird about my take on that?
We should aim to win every single football match; I don’t think that really needs saying. It’s clear that my point was a lot more nuanced than the way in which you have replied to it.
This is why it’s so important we change how we play. Díaz in our system would not get the plaudits he does at City, just look at how we all viewed Gundogan in a deeper role before the Silva spot freed up. Watching the game last night it’s so clear when City defend they form a dense block of 11 behind the ball and try to force the ball wide, their CBs get so much protection.
City’s xGA and xG is so good because of coaching and how they mitigate risk in games and avoid inviting pressure. Look at how many times we have gone behind in games, changed our system to a more offensive one and then come back to win points. City almost never concede first and ironically they are way more attacking than us.
We have the squad depth and quality to be a lot better in possession and manage games - we don’t need to be going through a whole season living on the edge of our seats and scoring through games with last minute goals. We should have managed that Everton game when two up but we kept giving them the ball and we paid the price.
Well, I can only respond to what you actually wrote, which is what I did. You said we should aim to finish second and you say City have already won the league. I don't agree with those two statements. You are probably right on both counts, but to me saying it the way you did is like saying your opponent is winning two nil, so may as well call the match over.
Good job that's not how the progress of Sir Matt Busby and Sir Alex Ferguson were being measured. Otherwise this club's trophy cabinet be pretty fecking empty.
Intelligent football fans see more than just the points for the current season. Most of the progress Ole is making has feck all to do with this season, in much the same way Sir Matt wasn't thinking about 1949 in 1949, but moreso 1952, and Sir Alex didn't give a feck about points tallies in 1989 because he had his eye on 1992.
You don’t agree but I am probably right? Why don’t we go the whole hog and just agree with the overwhelming reality that the league is over and we should tie up second, play some good football, win a cup, and call it progress?
When an opponent is winning 2-0 the game is usually over. I’m all for a bit of a belief but I’m also a realist. This City side are a juggernaut at the moment and we aren’t in a position to compete.
We are a team progressing who is producing results that are ahead of schedule.
We won't be a fully built team until 2022-23 season and from then, hopefully, we just need to evolve.
I think most United fans are neglecting to comprehend that Ole has had to kill off the whole mess Woodward created by hiring and firing managers and creating a mess of a dressing-room...
And he has done a spectacular job to get us where we are.. And I don't mean points-wise or the fact that he always gets us far in cup competitions. What I mean is that he has turned the mentaility of the dressing-room right around. The whole dressing-room plays for each other. The man-management has been outstanding. You can see everybody pulling for each other. Under LvG and Mourinho we were a dressing-room of individuals, there were fall-outs everywhere. Cleaning up this mess has been Ole's best victory. The results and the consistency will come once he has the dressing-room filled the way he wants it filled. Ole is literally only half-way through this process and ahead of schedule.
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Just to back this point up: taking a quick look at the last four seasons, the only team to have a better xG conceded stat after 24 gameweeks than this City side is the City side from 17/18. And not conceding many goals has pretty much always been a feature of Guardiola's sides. I think (though I might be wrong) he had the best defence for his four seasons at Barca, his three at Bayern and (including this season) three of his seasons at City?
Yes I don't agree with the statements you made.
City have won the league - no they haven't.
We should aim to finish second - no we shouldn't.
I'm saying I don't agree with those statements. Not that they won't happen. Just in the defeatist way you are describing it. Maybe I'm not explaining it well but it makes sense in my head haha
Well said mate. Re city, it's frustrating that they are doing so well with two of their best players out.
It will always be a missed opportunity when our nearest rivals more or less have capitulated since the start of the season with only City have picking up their form. If we had of played more bravely against a depleted Liverpool side, an unadventurous Chelsea side and a shite Arsenal side we'd still be sitting on top of the league or a lot closer to it. If we had of showed up against the bottom of the league team and kept our concentration against Everton and Leicester then we'd have a healthy 2 or 3 points advantage over City.
We're not top of the league because of mistakes we've made. Not because we aren't good enough.
On a side note. You make it sound like Leicester were having a season similar to our current one when they won the league. I don't think it could be further than the truth. Leicester by far played the best football in the league that year and fully deserved the title.
That isnt a missed opportunity, thats having a fantastic, title winning season that would win the title 99 percent of the time.
I don't agree. We've dropped our fair share of points which wouldn't win us the title 99% of the time. We wouldn't of had to play magnificent football to get more points playing the top 6 with the form they were in. If we had of been a little more adventurous City wouldn't be sitting 8 points clear of us. That's on us. Teams of course can have off days but what has stopped us having a decent shout at the title was our result against bottom team SU. Once again that's on us.
No one expected us to be in the title race this season but for one reason or another we were and it's not because other teams are better than us that we are now seemingly out of it but because of our own doing.
That bold marks is the reason why it is not missing opportunity because you can't ignore Man City's form from the topic here. Winning 11 league matches in a row is not something any teams can do it and not just winning but only conceded few goals. That shows the quality of their whole squad since Pep invested 900m on the squad which Aguero, KDB, Sterling are not part of the 900m as they were signed before Pep came. The fact that this season on 23 games Man City is only 3 points away compare to the 18/19 season shows you that this Man City is capable to achieve even 90 points. This Man City team is much much better than 15/16 Leicester who only won the league with 81 points.
We’re going around in circles. It’s pretty clear that I’m not suggesting we don’t try and win every single game and inevitably finish first. It’s also statistically obvious that City can still slip up. So let’s not pretend that this is my approach to the discussion.
Where we clearly disagree is that your measure of ‘defeatist’ is different to mine. I think I’m just being realistic given the current state of things. You expect a bit more from us it seems? I really don’t think we’re good enough yet. And I’m ok with that (for now) because I can see what Ole is trying to do with the squad.
I do agree Citys form is bordering on scary but my argument is it's not because they're so much better than us that they're 8 points ahead but more because of our own doing. Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal were all there for the taking but we chose to be more conservative but if we want to win titles we need to learn from these types of games. Playing not to lose instead of playing to win will not win us PLtitles.
Where we lost momentum was the SU game. People can say there's no easy game in the PL but surely, surely, surely we had to beat the bottom of the league club who were sitting there with only 5 points? Once again that has nothing to do with City being better than us but our own doing. Since that game we may have knocked in 9 against Southampton but letting off a horrible Arsenal side and losing a last second equaliser was also our own doing. We could/should have been a lot closer even if City do have a better team than us. Put it down to inexperience but personally I don't think Ole will have a better chance at winning the PL and should be going all out for it.
My apologies. I agree City have a much better squad than the Leicester champions squad. I thought you were implying that Leicester won the PL by not playing good football which I would have to disagree with. Even though their points tally was relatively low compared to the last few seasons I still think the side that played the best football overall won the league that year.
I mean, we are pretty much on the same page to be honest. I just think I have a bit more (probably naive) belief. I always think there is a chance and I think if the players feel that way too, then you never know...
But I'm also happy with the squad building and progress, and if we do finish second and win the FA or Europe Cup, I'll be very happy with the season indeed.
It's highly unlikely that our first XI is going to be playing in the Europa League. Whereas City will be going all out in the Champions League. The mileage may rack up in their legs. I ain't saying it's a sure thing. Just that we need to do our part to be close in case they Devon Loch.
Regression to the mean. they call it in statistics.
That's a bit of delusion tbh. We lost vs Burnley at home, there is not a single fixture where we could be sure of winning in the PL
Ignore my earlier reply mate, you're right. City have won the league.... let's aim for 2nd.
I'd take top 3 now,we look dreadful and there's a long way to go
Not sure what is delusional about anything I’ve said.
I think too many are taking their eye off those behind us. Top 4 is under real threat. Forget the title talk.