He would have won the CL with us I am sure about!
If Pep took over us instead of City would we have won the PL ?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Ask SAF. Or Woodward. Or any other club board in the world. Or any elite manager.
They don't know as much as us armchair experts obviously but I'm sure they'd offer some insight into Pep's qualifications and chances of succeeding at United.
They don't know as much as us armchair experts obviously but I'm sure they'd offer some insight into Pep's qualifications and chances of succeeding at United.
Of bloody course, Pep would have won it here. We hired people like Moyes, LVG and Mourinho in the expectation that they could win us the title.
Impossible to say, who would have taken over City in that alternate universe? Clubs with working hierarchy have the upper hand on clubs who have world class manager, but lacking the football knowledge outside of it. With same timeframe, we would have won something for sure, but if as much as City have, it's hard to say.
As long as his mate Tixi came too - then yes.
Since Fergie left and Pep joined City the net spend of each club has been flipping each season where United sometimes spend more and then City sometimes spend more. City obviously have more in the bank to splurge if they absolutely need to but the actual spend has been relatively similar net spend wise after a quick glance at the figures.
Dias and Cancelo cost less than Maguire and AWB etc (I know there are examples the other way too!). There are many variables to the argument but Pep would definitely have had the resources to compete and win a title with United. He might have just used it differently.
If they win the title they are the correct buys.
Eventually this is not fm. They bought players that does the job asked. It may not be some wonderkids we fancy at fm.
Pep is one of (and probably the) best managers on the planet and we're a club that was willing to (and did) spend a small fortune on players. So all good there.
However, City's success isn't just about Pep, it's about their whole set up. It's not a coincidence that Pep went to City, the club was geared to his requirements to the extent that his old friends Bergstein and Soriano were waiting for him in advance.
If we were similarly built to suit him then of course he would have won the league with us. However, operating under Ed Woodward and our haphazard recruitment attempts may have been a different story. If the right players aren't coming in then there isn't much any manager can do.
However, City's success isn't just about Pep, it's about their whole set up. It's not a coincidence that Pep went to City, the club was geared to his requirements to the extent that his old friends Bergstein and Soriano were waiting for him in advance.
If we were similarly built to suit him then of course he would have won the league with us. However, operating under Ed Woodward and our haphazard recruitment attempts may have been a different story. If the right players aren't coming in then there isn't much any manager can do.
I think it depends on which team he inherits.
2013 after Sir Alex, the team needed a midfield partner for Carrick and a right winger. That would have been enough to win the league that season. I think had any proven winner taken over from Fergie (Ancelotti, Mourinho etc.) we would have won with that team too. Moyes was simply out of his depth.
After that, it gets harder though. Look at Pep's first year at City, and that was with a team including Kompany, Silva, De Bruyne, Sterling and Aguero. He also added Gundogan, Bravo and Stones that summer and still finished third. He would have probably managed to turn it around if given enough time, but there's no way you could compare the quality of our squad to City's at the time.
If roles were reversed this season and Pep was our manager with Ole at City, we could probably win. Having said that, again compare the wing options at City - Sterling, Mahrez, Silva, Foden and Torres - to ours - Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, James and Mata - and again they're clearly ahead. City have simply got a better squad all round, not just a better manager.
So I'd say he'd only have won it had he taken over after Sir Alex and possibly Moyes. Other than that, we would have been up there but it's not as straightforward as a 100% certainty.
2013 after Sir Alex, the team needed a midfield partner for Carrick and a right winger. That would have been enough to win the league that season. I think had any proven winner taken over from Fergie (Ancelotti, Mourinho etc.) we would have won with that team too. Moyes was simply out of his depth.
After that, it gets harder though. Look at Pep's first year at City, and that was with a team including Kompany, Silva, De Bruyne, Sterling and Aguero. He also added Gundogan, Bravo and Stones that summer and still finished third. He would have probably managed to turn it around if given enough time, but there's no way you could compare the quality of our squad to City's at the time.
If roles were reversed this season and Pep was our manager with Ole at City, we could probably win. Having said that, again compare the wing options at City - Sterling, Mahrez, Silva, Foden and Torres - to ours - Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, James and Mata - and again they're clearly ahead. City have simply got a better squad all round, not just a better manager.
So I'd say he'd only have won it had he taken over after Sir Alex and possibly Moyes. Other than that, we would have been up there but it's not as straightforward as a 100% certainty.
I wonder what the side would look like as of today if he did join back in 16/17.
I reckon he would have agreed to signing Pogba, even if he doesn't fit the archetypical 'Pep' midfielder mould. He probably would have pushed hard for Stones too that summer. Maybe Gundogan if Utd were prepared to spend the extra money on another midfielder.
Walker probably would have joined at RB and they probably would have got Bernardo Silva. I think City were linked with Fabinho before he went to Liverpool too (as well as Utd) and they would have needed a CDM (as I don't think he would have been overly keen on Matic), so maybe that happens in this hypothetical world.
Hard to know what he would have done with De Gea - the fax machine debacle had already happened by that point and he was in fine form so he would have stuck with him initially I'm sure, but maybe moved on before he got that bumper new deal in real life.
City were keen on Maguire apparently so that likely still would have happened. Not sure what his solution at the CF position would have been.
I reckon he would have agreed to signing Pogba, even if he doesn't fit the archetypical 'Pep' midfielder mould. He probably would have pushed hard for Stones too that summer. Maybe Gundogan if Utd were prepared to spend the extra money on another midfielder.
Walker probably would have joined at RB and they probably would have got Bernardo Silva. I think City were linked with Fabinho before he went to Liverpool too (as well as Utd) and they would have needed a CDM (as I don't think he would have been overly keen on Matic), so maybe that happens in this hypothetical world.
Hard to know what he would have done with De Gea - the fax machine debacle had already happened by that point and he was in fine form so he would have stuck with him initially I'm sure, but maybe moved on before he got that bumper new deal in real life.
City were keen on Maguire apparently so that likely still would have happened. Not sure what his solution at the CF position would have been.
Imagine what he could have done with the likes of Lingard, Darmian, Young and co. Probably sacked in 8 months time.
If we’re taking straight after Sir Alex then 100% yes Guardiola would have won the league for us as we were still the best team about, biggest pull in the country, richest, best history and in Guardiola at that time we would have had the best manager and biggest pull.
I think we’d have signed Bale and Fabregas that summer as they’d have wanted to play for Guardiola and we still had plenty of leaders in the squad at the time too in Rio, Vidic, Evra, Giggs and Carrick although I think Rooney would have left as Sir Alex set it all up but obviously Moyes bottled it and Rooney ended up signing that mental contract.
I think we’d have signed Bale and Fabregas that summer as they’d have wanted to play for Guardiola and we still had plenty of leaders in the squad at the time too in Rio, Vidic, Evra, Giggs and Carrick although I think Rooney would have left as Sir Alex set it all up but obviously Moyes bottled it and Rooney ended up signing that mental contract.
But he won with what he has plus what he bought. And our board backs the manager, until they're proven to be duds. If ole can spend 300M you'd bet they won't say no to Guardiola, and whatever guardiola and his teams wants they'd be listened to virtue to their CV.
How would he do with this united team? he'd get us playing like a proper european elite, we may be missing some key pieces, but he'll buy 2-3 more players and plug them, even if he doesn't always gets everything right he's bound to get more right in coaching what he has, and seeing what we need, and identifying players that would strengthen us.
Let's not forget that Ole actually changes the whole coaching squad, at the moment he has "butt, carrick, fletcher + Mckenna (inherited)", it's not like he's not given license to hire his own team.
I'm not having a dig at Ole, that's another thread. But I'm having a dig on people who's so biased they created a different scenario on how Ole is better than Pep, and how pep is bound to fail with us. It's like can Messi does it in cold Britannia all over again. It's actually embarrassing. There's no shame in saying Pep is a great coach and believing he'd won something with us.
The big differences is the teams inherited. AWB and Maguire was bought in a market that saw 20% annual player value inflation. Plus Harry's domestic location and contract drove his prce up. But there's no hiding that we've just made bad purchases the last years.
This discussion will always remain a "what if" since I don't see a situation where Pep comes to a club that's in need of a overhaul and who has teams that are currently outright better than them.
There's no taking away from Pep that he's enormously successful as a manager. But as a challenging team builder you probably go with Jürgen Klopp as the best man since Sir Alex.
He just happens to bring his friend (yes man) he trust not to be a moron and veto his purchase, they probably know what they're looking for and doesn't need much back and forth between them.
Can you imagine if pep wants Laporte and Ole as DOF (what if scenario) tells him to go after "British value" Maguire?
He's also not shackled by some "united way" bullshit, and pogba won't dare pull this stunt against Pep, martial will not be given chance after chance, he'd be booted off the door as soon as he stops running.
People need to stop equating "Pep wouldn't have won a title" to "Pep is a poor manager". The point most people are trying to make is that even the arguably best coach in the game would have had a really hard time turning things around from 2016. Had Pep taken over after Fergie then it would be different, obviously.
The team Pep inherited was way better than our team in 2016. And even then he was given more money to spend. The tasks are incomparable. It's as simple as that.
To expand a little on my first post: it all depends on who's in charge of City instead of Pep. If whoever is in charge is semi-competent, then Pep would not have been able to close down the distance before Klopp's Liverpool emerged. If however City fecked up their choice of manager, then Pep would have had a decent chance to win the league in the 2017-2018 season, as everyone apart Pep's City and Mourinho's United were shite.
In summary: if City sign appoint a bad manager, Pep would probably have gotten a title with us in 2017-2018. In every other scenario I highly doubt he'd crack it, unless we spent 1 billion or something like that.
The team Pep inherited was way better than our team in 2016. And even then he was given more money to spend. The tasks are incomparable. It's as simple as that.
To expand a little on my first post: it all depends on who's in charge of City instead of Pep. If whoever is in charge is semi-competent, then Pep would not have been able to close down the distance before Klopp's Liverpool emerged. If however City fecked up their choice of manager, then Pep would have had a decent chance to win the league in the 2017-2018 season, as everyone apart Pep's City and Mourinho's United were shite.
In summary: if City sign appoint a bad manager, Pep would probably have gotten a title with us in 2017-2018. In every other scenario I highly doubt he'd crack it, unless we spent 1 billion or something like that.
That was Fergie covering himself after the Moyes era turned into a mess.
You think he didn't wanna sign Klopp because 'he was happy at Dortmund and might be signing a new contract'.
He did NOT offer the job to Jose.
He did NOT offer the job to Pep.
He did NOT offer the job to Klopp.
And none of those quotes above suggest he did. Because he didn't.
Moyes was always the choice.
The above quotes are aftermath quotes. ANd they don't suggest he ever offered any one the job other than David Moyes...
I heard there's a new book coming out in September about Alex Ferguson and it will detail why he opted for Moyes over all these guys... and the reason is as I have explained; Fergie thought a Klopp, Pep, or Jose would only manage for their time in charge... 3 years... they wouldn't utilise the whole football club (acadmies etc), that they would only concentrate on the first team over one contract (ie, three years). He didn't wanna throw away everything he had spent 25 years setting up.. so he opted for a long-term manager who had proven to evolve teams over 11 years... not a manager who manages one team for three years only and doesn't evolve them. I think the book is just gonna be called 'Alex'.
Fergie - by the way - is still riled and pissed off that United sacked Moyes. Had David Gill remained, there is no way Moyes would have been sacked... even if he finished 6th two years in a row... he was supposed to be there, like Fergie, to oversee a long-term strategy.... Fergie still can't believe Woodward sacked him for Van Gaal...
Not sure if serious.
How do you know this?
I think he would have, but hard to know.
I’m quite certain that Woodward could make a failure out of anyone or anything. Klopp knew this.
I have mutual friends with Sir Alex.
I'm not sure anyone would even suggest that Ole is a better manager than Pep!
And I like Ole, and think he's doing a smashing job considering what he inherited
Pep actively pursued Maguire. They just weren't willing to meet the asking price. No one could have handled the Pogba situation better than Ole has, and Pep, just like any other manager, would have been constrained by the shortage of alternatives in the squad in the management of Martial. He may be great, but he doesn't have a magic wand.
Not sure what you're arguing against here, but it doesn't seem to be the points I raised. Pep's got a system. More than a system, a whole way of approaching football, that requires not just full buy-in and a full understanding from his players, but a very specific skillset. Hence, it requires a squad that can implement it. United's squad is not constructed to those demands, and would not meet them. He'd have to reconctruct the squad significantly. I've no doubt the board would provide resources (they'd be idiots to hire Pep if they weren't, and Pep would never sign if he wasn't convinced they would). But it would take time. That's all. I've no doubt he'd transform United into a title winner if given the time and resources necessary. Nor that if he'd gotten the job when SAF retired, there would have been titles by now.
If comparing the squad quantity and depth which suit Guardiola play style when/after Sir Alex retired, Guardiola will not only spend City spent amount to recruit the players. That high spending was not include 7 players [De Bruyne, Sterling, Otamendi, Kompany, David Silva, Fernandinho & Agüero], all of those are the main squad and critical players in the past few years in Man City. Also, the Man United Tax is higher than Man City and we have a genius negotiator , so, maybe we will spend 2b to emulate the quantity and depth of this Man City nowaday under Guardiola manage us.
He hasn't won the CL in 10 years and that was with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and co. He couldn't win it with Bayern, the team he inherited after they had just won the treble and had Ribery, Robben, Lewandowski and Thiago. He has spent more with City than United have in that same time and that is whilst inheriting top players such as Aguero, KDB, Kompany and David Silva.
If he couldn't win the CL with them teams then in what world would he win it with United? Ridiculous statement to be honest.
Good point though, most of people here are unaware of Begiristain's long term project to hire his old pal Pep for Man city.
Man City players were already set for Pep's style years before he took over, while Woodward had no clue which football style that he wanted.
Even if Pep got all the players who he wanted at United, that would be a fecking long list of players. Will Woodward and Judge back him in a single transfer window? hell no, They probably need another 2-3 years to build a team for Pep.
The way I see it, is if he couldn’t, then nobody could. You are exactly the type of club that Pep thrives in - one with a lot of resources. I’ve said it before on here, but if a club has a lot of money, which you do, there is no better manager in world football.
I think another way to look at this question is that if you had Pep then we wouldn’t, so you’d have gained but also have significantly weakened our position. Double win.
I think another way to look at this question is that if you had Pep then we wouldn’t, so you’d have gained but also have significantly weakened our position. Double win.
Back in 2010 when Txiki was leaving Barcelona Pep promised him he'd join the club he would work at. There was a moment in 2011 when Txiki was very, very close to Liverpool but in the end he signed with City in September '12 so you would have to change your structure and hire Txiki as your DoF first if you really wanted Pep.
I think he would have a more suited squad for CL here. Although it depend on his transfers.
I think he would have better chance then at City here just my opinion.
How can a manger have a more suited squad when he has spent more money there than United have in the same time. I know it is an opinion but opinions can sometimes be crazy.
I'm not disputing Klopp could win the title at United if he came to us instead of Liverpool. But to dismiss Pep is unbelievable I think. Pep is a fantastic coach, yes he's had extra resources, but he has also been more dominant in every trophy bar the champions league. City last season fell away a bit, but with a couple of smart signings mainly Dias, he has turned it around and IMO I think this City side might become the greatest City side. There's just a balance in that squad that is near perfect and they are dominating every game they play whether it's Klopps Liverpool, Mourinhos Spurs and I fear Oles United when we play them shortly.
But winning the league without KDB proves my point. He doesnt just need top players in the 11 but top players behind those as well.
Im not denying we spend money but not to the levels Pep needs at City and we needed a lot more work done on our squad than they did.
If Pep could lessen his spend and achieve the same results with lesser players then he wouldnt be spending what he has at City.
United was a challenge when he had that choice but he went to the side with one of the best attacks in Europe already there who were on for the quadruple when he agreed to join with an unlimited pot of money behind him.
I dont think Pep brings us to the elite level because I dont think Pep has that fight in him.
On the CL thing, it's a cup competition, Sir Alex only won 2. It's not really a competition that tells you who the best in Europe is, you can have an off night and your out. The League title is the best way of judging who's best in the country and then after that it is really just opinion on who the best team is in Europe. Lets remember 05 Liverpool won it, Porto also won it and those 2 teams are 2 of the worse teams to win the champions league.
It's fantastic to win obviously, but give me the league title every day of the week.
It's fantastic to win obviously, but give me the league title every day of the week.
If he had received the aame backing amd got all the players he wanted, sure, I dont see why not. He is used to working for clubs with immense pressure, so the lower pressure at City doesnt mean that much.
The more interesting question, would David Moyes win the title with City with an 800 million transfer budget. Make it happen City.
The more interesting question, would David Moyes win the title with City with an 800 million transfer budget. Make it happen City.
He still had to break GK+CB transfer records.
Our unbalanced and fecked up squad is because we hire the wrong manager. If we hire klopp half of the mess wont be there in the first place.
So if he managed us he'll fare better than anyone else. Simply because he's the best there is at the moment.
There's no shame in admitting that.
Pep won three league titles in a row there. That happened only once in 30 years before he joined Bayern.
It’s a complete fallacy that to achieve that kind of success you could do it on a budget. Klopp spent what he felt he needed to, City have spent far more to get where they are. The spend it with them doesn’t appear to be ending