Just rewatched it on motd. Cannot believe not one of our players spotted it in real time and made a fuss.
Not that it is their duty as a footballer but still.
Not that it is their duty as a footballer but still.
How is that Hudson-Odoi handball not a penalty?
- Thread starter roonster09
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
"If you weren't there when I tackled you it wouldn't have been a free kick."
Klopps put the kibosh on us being treated fairly by refs or var now.
Maybe see it as karma after Rashford's dive in the Newcastle match.
If I was the ref I’d have given it I reckon. That said, it would be a close call, and those that are suggesting it’s some kind of cast iron penalty that would be given 10 times out of 10 if it was a Utd player in Utd’s area are simply wrong IMHO.
I mean it’s not like Greenwood is jostling with CHO or they are in a tangle of players, they run some two separate positions and his arm is above his shoulder for no reason. His hand then touches the ball which stops Greenwood from gaining possession, if CHO isn’t there, Greenwood’s arm isn’t in that position anyway.
50/50. Both had arms up and it looks like either one is the perpetrator depending on the angle.
I think people are overly focussing on it because without that being given, we failed to create one good chance all game.
I think people are overly focussing on it because without that being given, we failed to create one good chance all game.
It’s clear it is CHO who handled it first, rather than Greenwood. People are focussing on it because it is a very obvious handball bizarrely not given, despite the referee having the benefit of VAR telling him to review.
For those that don’t know that FIFA as well as publishing the laws of football and yes you have correctly copied law 12, they also publish another document that goes into more detail as to what the refs should take into account.
Here’s what they say in handball
Handling the ball
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
You mean where he was clearly trod on? That really hurts when you get stood on like that.
I personally think that this kind of incident should lead to an indirect free kick unless the referee determine that there is clear intent in which case a penalty/direct free kick and a card should be the sanction. But yeah, the rules say that it was an offence and therefore a penalty.
Under any rule there’s ever been that a penalty .
"The VAR asked the referee to look at the incident again but he stuck to his on-field decision as he felt that Hudson-Odoi didn't move his hand towards the ball."
..is the PL's explanation anyway.
..is the PL's explanation anyway.
Yeah yesterday was a tough one for players to see but generally we're terrible at allowing other teams to influence the ref while we turn mute
Just to begin, I’ve always found the responses to mine or others questions about why refs made a particular wrong decision against us consisting of ‘because it’s United’ pretty annoying and helpless because if fans keep blaming external influences, we’ll never improve.
However, this is proof that refs actually do now have an agenda against us. Can’t be any clearer sign than a ref not giving us a clear pen in a massive game because it’s United and people will criticise him after the game. It’s embarrassing and someone really needs to come out and slam a ref Fergie style to simply stop them from conning us because if the ref did his job yesterday, we’d be 9 points clear of Chelsea with them having to go to Anfield on Thursday. Top 4 sealed. I know we wouldn’t have deserved to win, but who cares? Hardly any United team since the PL’s inception have deserved to win at Stamford Bridge, yet when we did, it was one of the most important wins of the season. Chelsea fans will say the same about Old Trafford.
Fair play to Shaw for coming out and exposing that ref and saying it as it is yesterday. Shame for Attwell that he’s the only one under fire for the collective incompetence of these refs. It’s the first step to stop us being absolutely done over every other game, like we were against Fulham with Fred and Southampton with Cavani. Needless to say, our performances in these games need to massively improve too. If we keep drawing 0-0, we’ll never win the title. Even Leicester were comprehensively beating big 6 sides when they won the league, as they are doing very often now.
However, this is proof that refs actually do now have an agenda against us. Can’t be any clearer sign than a ref not giving us a clear pen in a massive game because it’s United and people will criticise him after the game. It’s embarrassing and someone really needs to come out and slam a ref Fergie style to simply stop them from conning us because if the ref did his job yesterday, we’d be 9 points clear of Chelsea with them having to go to Anfield on Thursday. Top 4 sealed. I know we wouldn’t have deserved to win, but who cares? Hardly any United team since the PL’s inception have deserved to win at Stamford Bridge, yet when we did, it was one of the most important wins of the season. Chelsea fans will say the same about Old Trafford.
Fair play to Shaw for coming out and exposing that ref and saying it as it is yesterday. Shame for Attwell that he’s the only one under fire for the collective incompetence of these refs. It’s the first step to stop us being absolutely done over every other game, like we were against Fulham with Fred and Southampton with Cavani. Needless to say, our performances in these games need to massively improve too. If we keep drawing 0-0, we’ll never win the title. Even Leicester were comprehensively beating big 6 sides when they won the league, as they are doing very often now.
According to the rules that were set for penalty box handballs, it's a clear as day penalty. I'm glad its finally front page on the BBC but Ole needs to be more forceful on these things, its not a questionable decision in any way. It's two or three games now where these decisions have cost us. The points add up.
The PL statement basically passes the blame 100% on to the referee and confirms he bottled it. They usually back the referee and explain the decision. This time they just said he 'stuck with his original decision' i.e. he got it wrong but didn't change it.
The PL statement basically passes the blame 100% on to the referee and confirms he bottled it. They usually back the referee and explain the decision. This time they just said he 'stuck with his original decision' i.e. he got it wrong but didn't change it.
That's that a penalty, come on.. that's desperate. The ball is moving away from the goal at the corner of the box.
I'd be ashamed if we had won with that penalty.
I'd be ashamed if we had won with that penalty.
Exactly. You can think the handball rule is bollocks, but 100 percent it's a penalty on those rules. Referee is meant to apply the rules, not unilaterally decide he doesn't feel like it 5pm on Sunday.
Does your hand touch the ball during open play? Opponent gets free kick.
There is no higher threshold for awarding a penalty. A hand ball is a hand ball.
There is no higher threshold for awarding a penalty. A hand ball is a hand ball.
Greenwood can put his arms where he wants if he doesnt handball it?
In reality, how often do you see handballs where the player has clearly and intentionally moved their arm/hand towards the ball? Majority of penalties are given because the hand is in an unnatural position.
In this case, I think all of the criteria for a handball were met, bar an "obvious movement of the band towards the ball". But for me, that's irrelevant in this case because his hand is in a completely unnatural position to begin with.
Now if his arm is down by his side in a natural position, but there seems to be a deliberate movement to the ball, then for me that's where that part of the law becomes relevant. To me, that's how I'd logically interpret the law anyway.
Put it this way, imagine jumping for the ball in the box with your hands above your head, but getting away with it because you jumped in that way and didn't move your hands towards the ball, it simply hit you. But it's clearly a pen because of the advantage you've gained by extending the reach of your body.
Point is, the law is way to ambiguous to begin with, and it's just a mess this season. It shouldn't be a handball, but to see the ones that have been given, and not give that one is just crazy. Main thing for me is that CHO uses his hand to control the ball, gains a clear advantage by taking the ball out of Greenwood's path and into his own. If you don't want to give away daft penalties, don't run around with your hands above your shoulders.
Like the vast majority of supporters I want to see diving, gamesmanship, ie conning the ref, outlawed and punished, but the same goes for off field gamesmanship too like managers trying to influence referees decision making. VAR should be used to review every incident where a player has dived or appeared to dive. The result of the match cannot be altered but the player, if found guilty of cheating, should be punished with a huge fine, a month or more wages. its not right to punish a whole team for one players stupidity, though if he continues doing it then the club should be punished by being docked points. VAR could,if the FA had the guts to use it in this manner, stop all forms of cheating but they only seem to use VAR to decide whether or not a player was offside or not by the tiniest, most irelevant distance.
I think it's unclear if Greenwood's motion pushes CHO's arm towards the ball. CHO definitely makes contact, but whether his arm is in an unnatural position of his own volition is less clear.
Handball rules have been dogshite this year. PL have even had to change the rules half-way through a season.
I've given up expecting consistency, and just hoping that each decision is as understandable as possible. Looking at yesterday's decision as an isolated decision, I think most would argue that's not enough for a pen.
Now watch City get the jammiest pen from a handball decision next weekend
I personally don't think it should have been a penalty because it seemed completely accidental, but I know that isn't the rule anymore. Based on current rules and recent decisions it should absolutely have been a penalty.
It's crazy how inconsistent refereeing is, I feel like it's become even more so with VAR. Literally every week there are decisions that are or aren't given which deviate from decisions the week before. Nobody expects refs to be perfect, but it just feels like they don't even know what the rules are at times.
It's crazy how inconsistent refereeing is, I feel like it's become even more so with VAR. Literally every week there are decisions that are or aren't given which deviate from decisions the week before. Nobody expects refs to be perfect, but it just feels like they don't even know what the rules are at times.
That's unfair on VAR this time. It was the on-field referee who didn't give it in real time. VAR, correctly, told him to check it out, he took a look at the replay and still didn't give it. It's all on Attwell.
I really want to see a defender tackle someone by throwing a boot at the ball from meters away.
Can you please remind me incident where this happen after VAR introduce?
It is, and I find that quite concerning because VAR is the biggest change that's happened in football since the back pass rule and yet we still find ourselves constantly discussing situations that ultimately are decided on how the referee is feeling that day.
Its not how I would like to win a game of football, but it is the rules and in this case I really don't see how its possible to NOT give that penalty. I can't stand it when people talk of conspiracies and such because every supporter thinks that there team gets a raw deal, but its hard not to notice that decisions seem to have stopped going our way every since it was mentioned by Klopp, and these points would have sewn up a top 4 finish at this point.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
I understand why it wasn't given. Greenwood and Odoi were pushing each other, so technically his arm was in a natural position when the ball strikes his hand.
I don't really think it is much of an issue, to be honest.
I don't really think it is much of an issue, to be honest.
Funny thing is, those 2 pens were contentious / soft (thought the Rashford one was a pen and the Martial one wasn't)
Thinking back, apart from yesterday, have we been denied any stonewall/good shouts for a pen? Think maybe there was one on Fred a few months back... Other then that it's mainly been decisions that have /haven't cancelled goals that haven't fallen our way.
The idiotic interpretation of handball at the start of the season has a lot to answer for. Put me down as another who thinks it is a pen now but would never have been before and shouldn't be in the future.
I agree. Yeah, by current rules it should be a penalty but that just means rules are dumb in my view. Penalties should be given for clear fouls in the box and handballs with intent that prevent goalscoring opportunities. In this one it was clearly an accidental handball, which would have been Greenwood's handball had CHO taken his arm away, and it prevented literally nothing.
It's more annoying that they keep saying we get loads of penalties, when actually we get the same as other teams. It's the fact if our manager or players say something, they will be asked to explain themselves, when Chelsea can intimidate referees with no come back. Klopp and his spawny captain can say what the hell they like with no comeback. Ole is a gentleman, but Klopp can scream in officials faces and nothing happens.
Yeah, this is my biggest issue at the moment. Even with VAR, it often feels like that if they decided these contentious calls with a coin toss, it really wouldn't be any more random. In the referees' defence: it's absolute chaos when it comes to this issue. We had an effing rule change in the middle of the season, and there seems to be no consistent guidelines for the application of the laws of the game.
For this particular case, under current rules it should absolutely be a penalty but I'm with those who suggest an indirect free-kick for cases like this. Because ultimately, the punishment has to fit the crime to a certain extent.
I personally think that referees should not officiate on what they, personally, think should be the rules. Personally, I despise the changing of the handball rule, which incidentally gave Liverpool the CL two years ago. But even more important is that there isn’t different rules for different games, or worse, for different teams. An honest refereeing mistake, I could live with. But referees who don’t actually know the rules they’re upholding, and instead judge on what they personally feel, that makes me cranky. Which this ref by his own words did.
I think the only way VAR works long-term is for us to be able to listen to the referees thought process as we can and do in Rugby matches. Mic them up, only let the captains approach them and let us hear everything that is being discussed, and crucially we must have the referees explain their decisions while they are making them.
I think it admirably to try to view things like this in a neutral light Even if you support one of the teams. It’s frustrating, though, because every replay shows that CHO lifts his hand AND connects with the ball before Greenwood comes into touch with him.
This is just one of the ways that VAR isn’t fit for purpose. The VAR referee has much longer to review the footage (without Chelsea twats distracting him) so he should make absolutely sure that the on-field referee doesn’t miss something obvious. If that ever happens it’s a failure of the system.
Something I’ve noticed is that there doesn’t seem to be any discussion while the ref is looking at the monitor. Talking back and forth about the best bit of footage to make a decision. There should be. If not, then that’s a problem.
I agree. If Ole does one thing this pre season it should be to get Roy Keane and Jaap Stam in to show the team how to appeal for and debate a decision with the ref.