Form against the big 6

Devil81 · Mar 1, 2021

Shocking really, don't know what's happened to us this season because previous years we've struggled against the weaker teams and beat the bigger clubs.

This season reads like this against the supposed big 6.

Played - 7
Scored - 1
Conceded - 7
Won - 0
Drawn - 5
Lost - 2

What's the game plan?

Almost seems like both clubs agree to a bore draw if you ask me.

McGrathsipan · Mar 1, 2021

its the quality of the attack and Midfield.

Greenwood is not yet the talisman we need. Less said about Martial the better.
Fred just runs alot and offers no attacking threat.
Our team needs an in form Pogba and a settled player like Kane or Haaland up front. We are just not good enough yet as a team.

Borys · Mar 1, 2021

I think there is already one or two threads on that.

Mike Smalling · Mar 1, 2021

Devil81 said:
Shocking really, don't know what's happened to us this season because previous years we've struggled against the weaker teams and beat the bigger clubs.

This season reads like this against the supposed big 6.

Played - 7
Scored - 1
Conceded - 7
Won - 0
Drawn - 5
Lost - 2

What's the game plan?

Almost seems like both clubs agree to a bore draw if you ask me.

Worth noting that 6 of the 7 goals, where in the Spurs game, where we got f*cked by the ref on Martial's red card. Also, worth noting our only goal was a penalty.

It's hard to put a finger on what exactly has gone wrong. Perhaps the other teams have wised up to our counter-attacking approach, perhaps the lack of fans suck the intensity out of the games, perhaps both us and our opponents have been too afraid to lose. Whatever it is, it has been dreadful to watch overall.

Sparky Rhiwabon · Mar 1, 2021

I bet in most of those games we’ve played the McFred midfield duo - a damage limitation midfield but not enough quality to get the wins.

Samid · Mar 1, 2021

Will people ever learn to use the search box? About 5 threads on this already.

Feed Me · Mar 1, 2021

Samid said:
Will people ever learn to use the search box? About 5 threads on this already.

I don’t know what you’re on about. If the OP had not been made, I would never had known about United’s record against the Big Six this season, since it has not once been mentioned. Ever.

DomesticTadpole · Mar 1, 2021

If he gets the players he wants and we are still like this next season, then you look at the manager. At the moment it is more about not having the personnel to play a more expansive game against all opponents.

Paul_Scholes18 · Mar 1, 2021

Well I think regarding Chelsea they have played for 0-0 against us by being ultra defensive. Arsenal as well.
I think the Pool game was a bit more open and we had a few chances, but should have attacked more.
Against City I guess a draw is OK and we had chances to win it.

Overall not good enough in terms of going with a creative approach.

PoTMS · Mar 1, 2021

DomesticTadpole said:
If he gets the players he wants and we are still like this next season, then you look at the manager. At the moment it is more about not having the personnel to play a more expansive game against all opponents.

But it wouldn't explain how we we able to play against them last year with considerably better results having more or less the same team. You could point to the players if it was a one off or maybe a couple of times, but seven games means it is no coincidence and we are being asked to play this way. Even if we were to throw caution to the wind just a little more, and decide to actually play our game, two wins and five defeats would have given us a better output than these pathetic boredraws.

Devil81 · Mar 1, 2021

DomesticTadpole said:
If he gets the players he wants and we are still like this next season, then you look at the manager. At the moment it is more about not having the personnel to play a more expansive game against all opponents.

I don't agree with that if I'm honest because we've dismantled these teams in the past and that was even without Bruno Fernandes.

Paul_Scholes18 said:
Well I think regarding Chelsea they have played for 0-0 against us by being ultra defensive. Arsenal as well.
I think the Pool game was a bit more open and we had a few chances, but should have attacked more.
Against City I guess a draw is OK and we had chances to win it.

Overall not good enough in terms of going with a creative approach.

I think you are being very kind to United there mate, I don't see us being any more expressive as our opposition in any of the games.

One thing United should never do is go into a game thinking about avoiding a defeat, the mindset should be we are going to win this by taking the game to our opponent. If we lose then that's part of the game but I'd much rather us have a go and win matches than what we've seen this season against the main bunch.

It's been totally pathetic.

Amarsdd · Mar 1, 2021

I think the reason behind this is pretty clear. Last season, we almost always played in the back foot against the big teams to counter-attack and similarly, the bigger teams had a bit of a "lack of respect" towards us and left more spaces for us to exploit. This season we tried to go more toe-to-toe with them (suppose possession/any dominance stats vs last season would show that) and they have also shown more respect towards us by being more defensive against us (both Chelsea games, City, Liverpool and I don't quite remember the others). So, because of that, we've cancelled each other out against the bigger teams and thus lots of 0-0s.

laughtersassassin · Mar 1, 2021

The Fred McTom pivot is a major reason for this imo.

With Pogba I hired we don't have much choice but when he was fit it was criminal not playing him in there.

Paul_Scholes18 · Mar 1, 2021

Devil81 said:
I don't agree with that if I'm honest because we've dismantled these teams in the past and that was even without Bruno Fernandes.

I think you are being very kind to United there mate, I don't see us being any more expressive as our opposition in any of the games.

One thing United should never do is go into a game thinking about avoiding a defeat, the mindset should be we are going to win this by taking the game to our opponent. If we lose then that's part of the game but I'd much rather us have a go and win matches than what we've seen this season against the main bunch.

It's been totally pathetic.

Yeah just find it a bit strange our opponents play for 0-0 too. Don't think Liverpool was happy with a draw, but the rest looked like it.

Devil81 · Mar 1, 2021

Paul_Scholes18 said:
Yeah just find it a bit strange our opponents play for 0-0 too. Don't think Liverpool was happy with a draw, but the rest looked like it.

The Chelsea games were the worst of the bunch I think, mainly due to the fact we can accept a draw with City because we know they are currently better than us but this Chelsea side are a team we should be getting stuck in to.

I think they are dreadful myself and their keeper can't hold a ball, no idea why we weren't all over him.

OleBoiii · Mar 1, 2021

People need to stop looking for patterns just to suit their agenda. It's the position on the table that ultimately matters.

Fun fact: in the 2008-2009 season, with what is considered Fergie's best team by many, United only got 5 points out of 18 possible against the traditional top 4.

Devil81 · Mar 1, 2021

OleBoiii said:
People need to stop looking for patterns just to suit their agenda. It's the position on the table that ultimately matters.

Fun fact: in the 2008-2009 season, with what is considered Fergie's best team by many, United only got 5 points out of 18 possible against the traditional top 4.

I don't think anyone has an agenda :houllier:

Just curious to why we've become so defensive all of a sudden in these fixtures.

DomesticTadpole · Mar 1, 2021

PoTMS said:
But it wouldn't explain how we we able to play against them last year with considerably better results having more or less the same team. You could point to the players if it was a one off or maybe a couple of times, but seven games means it is no coincidence and we are being asked to play this way. Even if we were to throw caution to the wind just a little more, and decide to actually play our game, two wins and five defeats would have given us a better output than these pathetic boredraws.

As @Amarsdd said it could be after last season the big six have also changed how they approach our games. It might not all be on us. I do not like this style of football either and especially at home we should be more offensive. I can understand it away from home, but not at home.

roonster09 · Mar 1, 2021

Last season we had best or second best record against top 6. Anyways most of these games are tight games which goes either ways. We should win the games against rest of them consistently in which case these draws won't be a huge factor.

For example, in 2017-18, Liverpool's form against top 6.
Vs City - Won 4-3, Lost 5-0
Vs ManUtd - Drew 0-0 and 1-1
Vs Spurs - Drew 2-2 and Lost 4-1
Vs Chelsea - Drew 1-1 and lost 1-0
Vs Arsenal - Won 4-0 and lost drew 3-3

Just 2 wins and 4 losses but that season they improved a lot and beat the poor teams consistently.

The dropped points against Sheffield United, West Brom, Crystal Palace, Everton. Now that's a huge problem.

rememberwhenwewerekings · Mar 1, 2021

Ultimately it’s a managerial job saver, we’ve got 5 points from a possible 21 and scored 1 goal, but 5 draws makes it look ok.
Now imagine we’d won 1, drawn 2, lost 4, scoring 1 goal, This statistic would have brought a lot of pressure on Ole from the media and fans.
In my opinion at the moment Ole is managing this team with one eye on his job, which will NEVER win titles, I just hope he is doing this with thoughts of getting a few better players in for next season and then really going for it.

bsCallout · Mar 1, 2021

In all these games we had the moments to win it and weve not had that cutting edge.

We need a true CF to rely on and ideally have Pogba in midfield too.

I think we should also be looking at how well our defense has done against these big teams, except in the Tottenham game.

This is next step for this team and I'm sure Ole knows it.

VeevaVee · Mar 1, 2021

DomesticTadpole said:
If he gets the players he wants and we are still like this next season, then you look at the manager. At the moment it is more about not having the personnel to play a more expansive game against all opponents.

Problem is we always seem a way off having the players. The midfield seems an issue at the mo, but so does defence, and god knows what’s going on with our attack. We probably need someone in every position there.

DomesticTadpole · Mar 1, 2021

VeevaVee said:
Problem is we always seem a way off having the players. The midfield seems an issue at the mo, but so does defence, and god knows what’s going on with our attack. We probably need someone in every position there.

We need someone in each department, that is another issue. A CB, a DM, a RW and I would say another striker for Martial and eventually Cavani. We also need the best there is to get near City. It will just be like us to spend in one area and cut corner in another.

VeevaVee · Mar 1, 2021

DomesticTadpole said:
We need someone in each department, that is another issue. A CB, a DM, a RW and I would say another striker for Martial and eventually Cavani. We also need the best there is to get near City. It will just be like us to spend in one area and cut corner in another.

I think Rashford needs competition too.

We’re desperate for a huge window but it seems so unlikely

DomesticTadpole · Mar 1, 2021

VeevaVee said:
I think Rashford needs competition too.

We’re desperate for a huge window but it seems so unlikely

Agree. Doubt we will fix all our problems. Think we need to sell to buy and if Pogba is sold that just makes another gap in the squad unless he plays Donny there, instead of trying to turn him into Bruno. Martial should be out the door as well, Mata's wages will be off the books, then it depends what he does with Jesse.

Offside · Mar 1, 2021

Obviously a balance issue. When we’ve got the worst defensive record in the top 10, shipping 2 home and away to Sheffield United and getting played off the park by Brighton we need to be more solid in the big games. This obviously has been harming us in attack.

It’s not a bad thing to avoid losing in these games. It’s not as though we’re getting pumped by every big team. We will get better.

TrustInJanuzaj · Mar 1, 2021

While it does look poor on paper and I have been critical recently about our negative approaches, I think it’s also fair to say we have largely been the better side in most of these games and with a more clinical striker I think we could have looked at a series of 1 and 2 goal to nil victories which would have been heralded as a managerial masterclass. The positive from this run is that when we want we can clearly defend but we still lack those killer players up top or additional creative players in midfield.

Member 90887 · Mar 1, 2021

It's clear that the Spurs game is still in the manager's mind.

Just like that Leicester game with LVG.

While i agree that we conceded 7 overall, we conceded only 1 goal in the other 6 games.

Keep in mind as well that in most of those games, it was not just us, there was a cautious approach from both teams. Should we have done better ? sure. Is it as bad as people here are trying to make it ? definitly not.

We did not have Cavani in most of those games and Pogba in a few of them and clearly, our attacking input diminishes without these two.

We have been the better side against Arsenal home and away, Chelsea at home. We could (should) have won it against Liverpool and it was balanced against city home and Chelsea away.

Most of these teams played defensively against us as.

Nick7 · Mar 1, 2021

roonster09 said:
Last season we had best or second best record against top 6. Anyways most of these games are tight games which goes either ways. We should win the games against rest of them consistently in which case these draws won't be a huge factor.

For example, in 2017-18, Liverpool's form against top 6.
Vs City - Won 4-3, Lost 5-0
Vs ManUtd - Drew 0-0 and 1-1
Vs Spurs - Drew 2-2 and Lost 4-1
Vs Chelsea - Drew 1-1 and lost 1-0
Vs Arsenal - Won 4-0 and lost drew 3-3

Just 2 wins and 4 losses but that season they improved a lot and beat the poor teams consistently.

The dropped points against Sheffield United, West Brom, Crystal Palace, Everton. Now that's a huge problem.

They came 4th that season, though?

MinGin · Mar 1, 2021

Game Plan !?
If you watch that the players miss the passing face by face, the player cannot control the ball when marked, the player cannot dribble one on one successful.
No game plan can be compensated with that quality of the players.
Also, a squad deep is still lacked for rotation. We have no front three rotation with quantity and quality when Cavani injury. And someone can be challenged RB position.

roonster09 · Mar 1, 2021

Nick7 said:
They came 4th that season, though?

Yeah.

They had excellent record in 2018-19 and also in 2016-17, but it was poor in 2017-18. We had excellent record in 2019-20 but this season it's poor. These games are decided on fine margins, so it's not surprising there is too much highs and lows.

City are the only consistent team with consistent results, last season their record was poor compared to their standards and it was still good enough.

Sunny Jim · Mar 1, 2021

Devil81 said:
Shocking really, don't know what's happened to us this season because previous years we've struggled against the weaker teams and beat the bigger clubs.

This season reads like this against the supposed big 6.

Played - 7
Scored - 1
Conceded - 7
Won - 0
Drawn - 5
Lost - 2

What's the game plan?

Almost seems like both clubs agree to a bore draw if you ask me.

it needs to be said that 6 out of 7 goals came in one game, that'a a classic out-liner. However, it's incredible that we failed to score and concede an open play goal in any other game.

MU655 · Mar 1, 2021

It is a big issue. If we continue at this rate, we will get 9 from 36 points if you include Leicester as well.

That means our max points if we win every other game would be 87 points instead of 114. It puts a whole lot more pressure on winning those other games.

At the moment, we are on course for 73 points. It is having a major impact on the season, and is leaving us too exposed to the chance of not securing top four.

Nick7 · Mar 1, 2021

roonster09 said:
Yeah.

They had excellent record in 2018-19 and also in 2016-17, but it was poor in 2017-18. We had excellent record in 2019-20 but this season it's poor. These games are decided on fine margins, so it's not surprising there is too much highs and lows.

City are the only consistent team with consistent results, last season their record was poor compared to their standards and it was still good enough.

Right I see what you’re saying now, sorry.

Acole9 · Mar 1, 2021

Five 0-0 draws, to me it looks like we're setting up not to be beaten. I would rather we'd show a bit of bravery and go for it.

Utd heap · Mar 1, 2021

Fine margins.

Only lost two in 7

hubbuh · Mar 1, 2021

Utd heap said:
Fine margins.

Only lost two in 7

Only scored 1 goal, though. That isn't good enough, not if we want to win the biggest honours. I expect our record to improve quite a bit next season assuming we bring in a forward that can cause problems.

The strange thing is we're the top scorers in the league yet in quite a lot of games this season we've looked completely bereft of ideas going forward. I know that tally is somewhat distorted by the 15 goals we racked up against Leeds and Southampton, but it's frustrating that we can't translate that threat into goals against the bigger teams.

croadyman · Mar 1, 2021

Harry Harries said:
Only scored 1 goal, though. That isn't good enough, not if we want to win the biggest honours. I expect our record to improve quite a bit next season assuming we bring in a forward that can cause problems.

The strange thing is we're the top scorers in the league yet in quite a lot of games this season we've looked completely bereft of ideas going forward. I know that tally is somewhat distorted by the 15 goals we racked up against Leeds and Southampton, but it's frustrating that we can't translate that threat into goals against the bigger teams.

Yeah no goal in a big six game since the first couple of minutes against Spurs needs ending, looks very much like that result has ended any hopes of us being expansive in these remaining fixtures as there looks to be a serious hangover

Born2Lose · Mar 1, 2021

After the park the bus years under Jose, teams are starting to respect us more and knowing that if they attack we'll succesfully counter them. Rashford and Martial aren't great against top defences currently unless they have an acre of space in front of them e.g Rashford against Liverpool in the FA Cup.

People on here have moronic expectations, since Roman's Roubles turned up a draw at Chelsea has always been a good result.

rcoobc · Mar 1, 2021

OleBoiii said:
People need to stop looking for patterns just to suit their agenda. It's the position on the table that ultimately matters.

Fun fact: in the 2008-2009 season, with what is considered Fergie's best team by many, United only got 5 points out of 18 possible against the traditional top 4.

Won a few more games against Arsenal though

Form against the big 6

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