Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

duffer

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The ref in the van telling the ref on the pitch to look at it again is such bullshit really. Just tell him he missed it and that he should give the pen.

"Maybe you wanna check that again" is such a cop out, puts pressure on the pitch ref and slows everything down.
 

awop

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The ref in the van telling the ref on the pitch to look at it again is such bullshit really. Just tell him he missed it and that he should give the pen.

"Maybe you wanna check that again" is such a cop out, puts pressure on the pitch ref and slows everything down.
It used to be a way to sell it to the audience at the begininng but now it's pointless, even more so in England where they did everything in their power to feck it up...
 

Thunderhead

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it's not hard to do it right, if it was like this I think far less people would whinge, even if the decision is wrong at least it's transparent



 

big rons sovereign

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it's not hard to do it right, if it was like this I think far less people would whinge, even if the decision is wrong at least it's transparent



Never gonna happen here.
They're either utterly incompetent or bent.
Either way, it would make them answerable and the FA will never go for it.
 
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2 man midfield

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They did review that, just didn't think it was a red for Maguire.

But yeah this Mount thing is a much a muchness... Its a yellow card at most, who cares?
Ah fair enough, I just remember them being similar incidents that didn’t lead to much action. Nothing much in it anyway as you say.
 

UncleBob

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Regarding the CHO incident. I'll admit that over the past couple of years I've come to the realisation that I probably don't understand the handball laws (or I do and the refs don't, which I hope is not true!).

I'm real time I thought no way it was pen. On slow-mo replay viewing I was sure he'd give the pen under the rules as I understand them.

Is there anything in the laws to not give a pen because both players were jostling and CHO's arm got knocked to the ball by Greenwoods arm? That's maybe a logical reason to not give a pen but I do get that logic and refereeing decisions don't go hand in hand.
No
And no.
 

acnumber9

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So if I get pushed into the ball and it hits my arm, I get punished? Seems odd but fair enough I guess.
If you get fouled you get a free kick. If you don’t, you don’t. It clearly wasn’t a foul, it only happens because Hudson Odoi puts his arm up.
 

acnumber9

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They did review that, just didn't think it was a red for Maguire.

But yeah this Mount thing is a much a muchness... Its a yellow card at most, who cares?
I probably wouldn’t care if it was at least acknowledged it happened. Sky sat and watched replays of it and it’s not at least a talking point? The scrutiny of any decision United gets is clearly causing implications. That can only happen when people completely ignore things that potentially go against us and only shows those that do.
 

UncleBob

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So if I get pushed into the ball and it hits my arm, I get punished? Seems odd but fair enough I guess.
Not very likely.

Not entirely sure what it has to do with the situation between CHO and Greenwood
 

big rons sovereign

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So if I get pushed into the ball and it hits my arm, I get punished? Seems odd but fair enough I guess.
He didn't get pushed though.
What makes me laugh is that Chelsea were screaming for handball when they thought it had hit greenwoods arm.
 

duffer

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Not very likely.

Not entirely sure what it has to do with the situation between CHO and Greenwood
Ref could've though CHOs hand was moved to the ball (not on purpose) by Greenwood as Greenwood was running.

Look at the pic below. I'm not saying that he didn't handle it or that Greenwood fouled him, just looking for a possible reason the ref didn't give it!

 

acnumber9

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Ref could've though CHOs hand was moved to the ball (not on purpose) by Greenwood as Greenwood was running.

Look at the pic below. I'm not saying that he didn't handle it or that Greenwood fouled him, just looking for a possible reason the ref didn't give it!

We know the ref didn’t look at that still though. We could see the angle he was looking at.
 

UncleBob

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Ref could've though CHOs hand was moved to the ball (not on purpose) by Greenwood as Greenwood was running.

Look at the pic below. I'm not saying that he didn't handle it or that Greenwood fouled him, just looking for a possible reason the ref didn't give it!

It's Attwell, he's incompetent.
 

Thunderhead

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He didn't get pushed though.
What makes me laugh is that Chelsea were screaming for handball when they thought it had hit greenwoods arm.
yep this, unless CHO walks like an Egyptian that's a pen all day long under the ridiculous laws we have in place now
 

Zlatan 7

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If he thought giving that pen would lead to less media coverage than not giving it, he's thicker than he looks.
He thought it would lead to more coverage than not giving it I would have assumed
 

Mb194dc

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I was very surprised Utd didn't get a pen for CHO incident.

Then again I was also surprised Maguire wasn't done for fouling Lescalles in the prior game. Also that Rashford got a pen and not booked for diving. Same for Salah in game v City.

Also in the reverse Chelsea fixture v Utd holding Azpi like a WWE match.

Also surprised TAA wasn't sent off V Arsenal.

I could go on.

We all know Utd got 42 pens in OGS first 115 games for Utd. That is just the statistics. About double any other team has ever had in same amount of games I think
If anyone can find a similar run of pens in a top league I'd be interested to see it ?

Since that was pointed out, Utd have had a more normal number.

Is what Maguire said accurate, probably but it shouldn't surprise Utd fans.
 
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Zlatan 7

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I was very surprised Utd didn't get a pen for CHO incident.

Then again I was also surprised Maguire wasn't done for fouling Lescalles in the prior game. Also that Rashford got a pen and not booked for diving. Same for Salah in game v Everton.

Also in the reverse Chelsea fixture v Utd holding Azpi like a WWE match.

Also surprised TAA wasn't sent off V Arsenal.

I could go on.

We all know Utd got 42 pens in OGS first 115 games for Utd. That is just the statistics. About double any other team has ever had in same amount of games I think
If anyone can find a similar run of pens in a top league I'd be interested to see it ?

Since that was pointed out, Utd have had a more normal number.

Is what Maguire said accurate, probably but it shouldn't surprise Utd fans
Why do you think that was
 

UncleBob

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I was very surprised Utd didn't get a pen for CHO incident.

Then again I was also surprised Maguire wasn't done for fouling Lescalles in the prior game. Also that Rashford got a pen and not booked for diving. Same for Salah in game v Everton.

Also in the reverse Chelsea fixture v Utd holding Azpi like a WWE match.

Also surprised TAA wasn't sent off V Arsenal.

I could go on.


We all know Utd got 42 pens in OGS first 115 games for Utd. That is just the statistics. About double any other team has ever had in same amount of games I think
If anyone can find a similar run of pens in a top league I'd be interested to see it ?

Since that was pointed out, Utd have had a more normal number.

Is what Maguire said accurate, probably but it shouldn't surprise Utd fans
If it's going to be equally shit, then please don't.
 

Danillaco

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Ref could've though CHOs hand was moved to the ball (not on purpose) by Greenwood as Greenwood was running.

Look at the pic below. I'm not saying that he didn't handle it or that Greenwood fouled him, just looking for a possible reason the ref didn't give it!

Why look at photos when you have the video of it? This image means absolutely nothing.
 

duffer

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Why look at photos when you have the video of it? This image means absolutely nothing.
That photo is incredibly clear and shows the point CHO handled it (and Greenwoods arm right underneath CHOs hand).

I thought a pen would be given. I'm just reaching for a possible reason the ref might not have given it.
 

arnie_ni

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But that's not correct - it's not a handball if the ball hits your hand and you don't have a chance to move it out of the way. The law as written is ambiguous - it has consistently been interpreted as being a handball if the defender gains an advantage. I'm not arguing that the law shouldn't be clarified and made explicit one way or another; my point is it seems very much antithetical to the spirit of the law to argue that this is a stonewall penalty when afterwards Greenwood controlled the ball anyhow.
Thats not what the rule says though. Youre making it up as you go along here
 
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Doracle

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Fair enough! I just would focus more on the outcome rather than the action itself, personally. Appreciate the discussion mate!



Not trying to WUM but I'm not exactly following you here, apologies.



Spot on. This is exactly what I've been trying to say.
Yes good discussion. I think everyone can agree that handball is a mess and needs clarity. I just thought this was a fairly simple one - it’s like the Pogba one I flagged earlier or the Smalling one versus Torino last year. There’s no way they intended to handball it but it’s usually regarded as a clear penalty when you can avoid a handball and it’s your own clumsiness which prevents you from doing so. The number of handballs which are truly “deliberate” in the area has always been minimal.
 

UncleBob

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That photo is incredibly clear and shows the point CHO handled it (and Greenwoods arm right underneath CHOs hand).

I thought a pen would be given. I'm just reaching for a possible reason the ref might not have given it.
Nope.

 

arnie_ni

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I was very surprised Utd didn't get a pen for CHO incident.

Then again I was also surprised Maguire wasn't done for fouling Lescalles in the prior game. Also that Rashford got a pen and not booked for diving. Same for Salah in game v City.

Also in the reverse Chelsea fixture v Utd holding Azpi like a WWE match.

Also surprised TAA wasn't sent off V Arsenal.

I could go on.

We all know Utd got 42 pens in OGS first 115 games for Utd. That is just the statistics. About double any other team has ever had in same amount of games I think
If anyone can find a similar run of pens in a top league I'd be interested to see it ?

Since that was pointed out, Utd have had a more normal number.

Is what Maguire said accurate, probably but it shouldn't surprise Utd fans.
Why does that matter? So what we've reached our quota and the refs can't give anymore?
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Thats not what the rule says mate. Your making it up as you go along here
I've acknowledged repeatedly that I understand that it isn't what the rule states. I'm talking about how it has been interpreted historically.

The old handball law was written that all handballs must be deliberate. However, referees always interpreted it with a degree of common sense where they factored in intent and the advantage gained. Where the advantage gained was so significant from a non-deliberate handball they typically awarded a penalty. Or, to put it another way, not all handballs given as penalties were deliberate. That was how referees embraced the spirit of the law.
This sums it up perfectly.
 

Sylar

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I have no doubt we will see a similar incident soon and a penalty will be given.
Wouldnt surprise me if Chelsea get one vs Liverpool now :lol:
 

Jeppers7

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I was very surprised Utd didn't get a pen for CHO incident.

Then again I was also surprised Maguire wasn't done for fouling Lescalles in the prior game. Also that Rashford got a pen and not booked for diving. Same for Salah in game v City.

Also in the reverse Chelsea fixture v Utd holding Azpi like a WWE match.

Also surprised TAA wasn't sent off V Arsenal.

I could go on.

We all know Utd got 42 pens in OGS first 115 games for Utd. That is just the statistics. About double any other team has ever had in same amount of games I think
If anyone can find a similar run of pens in a top league I'd be interested to see it ?

Since that was pointed out, Utd have had a more normal number.

Is what Maguire said accurate, probably but it shouldn't surprise Utd fans.
You should’ve stopped typing here. Nothing else is relevant to the incident in question.
 

ManUnitedCanuck

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Fair enough! I just would focus more on the outcome rather than the action itself, personally. Appreciate the discussion mate!



Not trying to WUM but I'm not exactly following you here, apologies.



Spot on. This is exactly what I've been trying to say.
I agree nothing wrong with the discussion, that is what a forum is about.

My point was that there was no advantage gained by the defender in the Gundogan incident, therefore if that is how they are interpreting the rule, it should not be a penalty. But it was given even though there was no advantage by the defender as the ball was going out of play and reach of Gundogan. The outcome was not changed but they gave a penalty. On top of that he fouled the other player first.

If they were consistent in decisions it would be much easier for fans/pundits/players/managers to understand. Of course with anything that includes humans there will be different views but the completely opposing decisions being given even after VAR is getting crazy. In the game this year, it’s a clear handball and penalty, there are just too many that are similar that have been given.

Again, appreciate the discussion and understand that some of us will disagree over various topics.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The old handball law was written that all handballs must be deliberate. However, referees always interpreted it with a degree of common sense where they factored in intent and the advantage gained. Where the advantage gained was so significant from a non-deliberate handball they typically awarded a penalty. Or, to put it another way, not all handballs given as penalties were deliberate. That was how referees embraced the spirit of the law.
Common sense, real time officiating that VAR has eradicated from the game, leaving us with the handball farce we’ve been enduring this season.