How is that Hudson-Odoi handball not a penalty?

JPRouve

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I personally think that referees should not officiate on what they, personally, think should be the rules. Personally, I despise the changing of the handball rule, which incidentally gave Liverpool the CL two years ago. But even more important is that there isn’t different rules for different games, or worse, for different teams. An honest refereeing mistake, I could live with. But referees who don’t actually know the rules they’re upholding, and instead judge on what they personally feel, that makes me cranky. Which this ref by his own words did.
No one wants that, my point was that the rules should be changed. A handball shouldn't automatically be a direct free kick, particularly when the rules mention deliberate and non-deliberate handballs.
 

Siorac

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Something I’ve noticed is that there doesn’t seem to be any discussion while the ref is looking at the monitor. Talking back and forth about the best bit of footage to make a decision. There should be. If not, then that’s a problem.
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. They should communicate, and their communication should be public.
 

JPRouve

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Yeah, I definitely agree with that. They should communicate, and their communication should be public.
It's one of the things that should be taken from Rugby, the TMO has 20 years now and the game learned a lot over the years. Nowadays in top competitions you can hear the refs which helps everyone understand what they think of a particular situation, whether we agree or not, and on the TMO/VAR side of things, you can also hear him, generally he will explicitly describe what he is seeing, his interpretation of the situation, the referee will either agree or disagree and explain to the TMO what he is himself seeing.
 

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Like the vast majority of supporters I want to see diving, gamesmanship, ie conning the ref, outlawed and punished, but the same goes for off field gamesmanship too like managers trying to influence referees decision making. VAR should be used to review every incident where a player has dived or appeared to dive. The result of the match cannot be altered but the player, if found guilty of cheating, should be punished with a huge fine, a month or more wages. its not right to punish a whole team for one players stupidity, though if he continues doing it then the club should be punished by being docked points. VAR could,if the FA had the guts to use it in this manner, stop all forms of cheating but they only seem to use VAR to decide whether or not a player was offside or not by the tiniest, most irelevant distance.
Your response is refreshing and contains, to my mind, quite some wisdom. I do though, find it hard to agree entirely with your initial statement. To many, it seems, diving is naughty when it's done by the opposition, but when it's not the oppositon all sorts of partisan and biased excuses for - and lame attempts at justifying - the dive are rolled out.

As for the FA having the guts to use VAR to reduce unsporting stuff, I have believed for many years that the FA, UEFA and FIFA really do want diving in the game. I cannot come to any other conclusion when multi-camera video evidence has been available for so long only for diving to have increased hugely in frequency. There was an attempt at sanity several years ago when Eduardo of Arsenal was in trouble for his blatant dive whilst playing against Celtic. Sadly though, Arsenal and Arsene whined and whined until UEFA backtracked. A bleak turning point, I say.

As for VAR and players ruled offside by an eyebrow, the solution is very simple: give the mysterious VAR judges 3 seconds to view a still of the moment in question. If they can't make a clear and confident decision, then the player is not offside.
 

Grande

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No one wants that, my point was that the rules should be changed. A handball shouldn't automatically be a direct free kick, particularly when the rules mention deliberate and non-deliberate handballs.
I completely agree that the rules should change. They functioned quite well before. The yearning for and misconception about the possibility of having fool proof rules for everything makes the rules themselves foolish, and the ref’s themselves into the rules’ fools.
 

Jeppers7

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https://www.skysports.com/football/...-goal-against-west-brom-says-dermot-gallagher

Well Dermotts had his say....He’s give his verdict as he does, I think recently his verdict on Sheff Uniteds goal against us and ours which was disallowed is that both were correct decisions.

His big verdict today....’the ref wasn’t convinced it was handball’ thanks for that insight Dermott. What we really wanted was your opinion on the handball but cheers. We could’ve guessed that ourselves pal.
 

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https://www.skysports.com/football/...-goal-against-west-brom-says-dermot-gallagher

Well Dermotts had his say....He’s give his verdict as he does, I think recently his verdict on Sheff Uniteds goal against us and ours which was disallowed is that both were correct decisions.

His big verdict today....’the ref wasn’t convinced it was handball’ thanks for that insight Dermott. What we really wanted was your opinion on the handball but cheers. We could’ve guessed that ourselves pal.
He said he thought it was a handball right at the beginning.
 

sullydnl

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I suspect that if you looked at overall penalties given in those time periods you'd see a general drop in the number of penalties given. The bar for what's required for a VAR intervention was raised around Christmas time, so I'd have expected fewer anyway. I might be wrong though.
 

sparx99

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I suspect that if you looked at overall penalties given in those time periods you'd see a general drop in the number of penalties given. The bar for what constitutes a penalty was raised around Christmas time, because that's the kind of shit the PL do.
It's mad that they changed rules mid-season. What kind of league can just arbitrarily change rules mid-season. I didn't like some of the handballs given but all 38 matches need to be played under the same rule-set with rules changed in the off-season.
 

sullydnl

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Was pointed out on twitter that the below handball wasn't given this weekend either, even though it obviously should have been:



So in terms of why we didn't get a penalty, it seems the likely answer is that the handball rule is a mess and referees don't really know what they're doing.
 

sincher

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Maybe it should have been a penalty but it was a nothing incident really, hate to see penalties from those kinds of things. When it happened, like seemingly everyone else I thought it came off Greenwood's hand, accidentally. Not the kind of thing that should decide an even game.
 

NicolaSacco

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I personally think that referees should not officiate on what they, personally, think should be the rules. Personally, I despise the changing of the handball rule, which incidentally gave Liverpool the CL two years ago. But even more important is that there isn’t different rules for different games, or worse, for different teams. An honest refereeing mistake, I could live with. But referees who don’t actually know the rules they’re upholding, and instead judge on what they personally feel, that makes me cranky. Which this ref by his own words did.
What's the quote from the referee? Not one paraphrased by a Man Utd player or manager post-match.
 

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I personally don't think it should have been a penalty because it seemed completely accidental, but I know that isn't the rule anymore. Based on current rules and recent decisions it should absolutely have been a penalty.

It's crazy how inconsistent refereeing is, I feel like it's become even more so with VAR. Literally every week there are decisions that are or aren't given which deviate from decisions the week before. Nobody expects refs to be perfect, but it just feels like they don't even know what the rules are at times.
The irony here is that for it to be handball ,save when a goal has been scored ( they changed the law on this aspect) handball does indeed still have to be deliberate.

With the exception of a couple of decisions in football such as the ball being out of play the majority of decisions are still very much in the opinion of the referee

As for the refs not knowing the laws I find it staggering how many players and pundits have no ide what the laws are . For instance a player can only be played on side from a deliberate action to play the ball as opposed it to just bouncing of a player ( that law was changed several years ago)
 

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Was pointed out on twitter that the below handball wasn't given this weekend either, even though it obviously should have been:



So in terms of why we didn't get a penalty, it seems the likely answer is that the handball rule is a mess and referees don't really know what they're doing.
Took me a good 30 seconds to find the ball there :lol: It’s like something they’d use in Question of Sport.
 

terraloo

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I really want to see a defender tackle someone by throwing a boot at the ball from meters away.
Have seen someone throw a water bottle at a corner which led to a penalty
That can't possibly be the reason. If so then the ref is going off the old laws of the game and I don't think that's the case. Mind you I can't figure out why it wasn't given. 100% blatant penalty. Not even a little controversial.
Its not the old interpretation at all .IFAB still advise that the ref has to consider this when making a handball decision
 

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Whether or not the handball rule is fit for purpose is a complete distraction from the actual issue at hand.

That is the ref looked at a stone wall penalty on video replay, and decided not to apply the rules of the game. It was indisputably a penalty by the rules of game, which is exactly why VAR told the ref to look at it. The rule is prescriptive as to what is deemed an unnatural position. It's not up to ref to decide when is or isn't convenient to enforce the rules.

All this talk about hating the penalty rule, about 'modern day penalties' etc is a completely separate discussion.
 

JPRouve

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Took me a good 30 seconds to find the ball there :lol: It’s like something they’d use in Question of Sport.
I have suspicions about its whereabouts but I don't actually know where that damn ball is.
 

terraloo

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Whether or not the handball rule is fit for purpose is a complete distraction from the actual issue at hand.

That is the ref looked at a stone wall penalty on video replay, and decided not to apply the rules of the game. It was indisputably a penalty by the rules of game, which is exactly why VAR told the ref to look at it. The rule is prescriptive as to what is deemed an unnatural position. It's not up to ref to decide when is or isn't convenient to enforce the rules.

All this talk about hating the penalty rule, about 'modern day penalties' etc is a completely separate discussion.
The rule isn’t ” prescriptive as to what is deemed to be unnatural position. If you think I am wrong point me in the direction of where in the laws it actually uses those words

Hey I was delighted with the decision but just like most of the laws they are based on the refs opinion
 

Eugenius

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The rule isn’t ” prescriptive as to what is deemed to be unnatural position. If you think I am wrong point me in the direction of where in the laws it actually uses those words

Hey I was delighted with the decision but just like most of the laws they are based on the refs opinion
touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm
 

terraloo

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touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm
So where’s the words unnatural position?

Bear in mind here’s what IFAB says a ref has to consider

Note the comment about position of the hand


Handling the ball
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
 
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bsCallout

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I'd love to see indirect FKs given for these handballs. They're not intentional but they are still clear as day.
 

Eugenius

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So where’s the words unnatural position?

Bear in mind here’s what IFAB says a ref has to consider

Note the comment about position of the hand


Handling the ball
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
He's moved his hand toward the ball, made himself bigger, his hands are above shoulder height. There's not much to be pedantic about.
 

SadlerMUFC

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Have seen someone throw a water bottle at a corner which led to a penalty


Its not the old interpretation at all .IFAB still advise that the ref has to consider this when making a handball decision
The new law is all about your hand being away from your body and making yourself "bigger". It is not about "ball to hand or hand to ball" like it used to be

 

Jeppers7

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He said he thought it was a handball right at the beginning.
He said he thought it was a ‘modern day penalty’ which he said last week for our penalty by the way. he also said that this is an example of how the game is better because the ref was able to stick to his on field decision. He didn’t say the ref got it wrong and should have given the penalty, which he did and should.
 

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He said he thought it was a ‘modern day penalty’ which he said last week for our penalty by the way. he also said that this is an example of how the game is better because the ref was able to stick to his on field decision. He didn’t say the ref got it wrong and should have given the penalty, which he did and should.
The game is better (in general) because refs have more autonomy/are going to the monitor more compared to last season, I think most would agree with that? Obviously it wasn't the case here but thats due to poor refereeing and VAR not being strong enough to point him towards the correct decision.

I'd also say he's right saying it's a "Modern Day" penalty in the sense that these are the kind of pens that VAR has consistently been giving, where as before VAR and all the hoo-ha over the handball rule and such where more interpretation was involved - these were obviously missed or seen as soft.

But yeah, he said the expectation was for a penalty, most were surprised it wasn't a penalty, and both he and VAR (obviously) thought it was/touched CHO hand. So he's all but said that Stuart Atwell got it wrong. The reason I don't think flat out state it was incorrect is because I don't think he (or anyone) can really understand exactly WHY he didn't give it, other then just saying he didn't think it was handball (which is wishy-washy, but really, what other reason is there?). Sure he could condemn the ref, but we know ref's don't like to do that to each other.
 

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I have suspicions about its whereabouts but I don't actually know where that damn ball is.
Above the letters "her" in the advertising hoarding, just touching the defenders raised arm. I think! :eek:
 

Zlatan 7

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Someone posted this in the VAR thread. Similar to rugby union which works well (as long as the refs aren't French).

I keep seeing this video in different threads as an example of good VAR use and I’d agree it is but it’s a pretty straight forward raises foot into the shin decision. Let’s see some examples from this league where the decision is fifty fifty and what conversation they’re having. Why is it always this one video, plus I first seen this video months ago so why is it still the same example being used
 

JPRouve

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Above the letters "her" in the advertising hoarding, just touching the defenders raised arm. I think! :eek:
I spotted it then, I really wasn't sure.
 

Grande

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Its not the old interpretation at all .IFAB still advise that the ref has to consider this when making a handball decision
This is the handball rule, quoted from IFAB, (to clarify for unsecure followers of semantics - the form is of either/or/or, not both/and/and):

‘Handling the ball
For the purposes of determining handball offences, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit.

It is an offence if a player:

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
  • after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
    • scores in the opponents’ goal
    • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
  • touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
    • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
    • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)’

      Or to put it bluntly: it’s a handball if the player touches the ball with their hand when the hand is above or beyond their shoulder level. Period.
 

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It was handball, no doubt the only one who thought it wasn't was the main one . It grates how VAR let's him know hes missed it, then he sees it and still thinks it's not hand ball?.
VAR is subjective and this handball just proves it you will get another one exactly the same, and it will be given. So is VAR realy needed.
 

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What a disgraceful interview. Let's all laugh at the notion it should be a penalty. Oh the qualified referee thinks it should be a penalty, I'll tell him he's wrong and we'll move on.