Paul Pogba

Litch said:

Really? Not sure I've seen maybe games where McFred has lost us games but I can think of a few that others have cost us them. Someone please tell me how with Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno isn't enough to score enough goals to win games.

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I think you are looking at it the wrong way from the start if you’re waiting to count times McTominay and Fred have ‘lost us games’. That’s the issue with our midfielders. ‘Not doing anything wrong’ isn’t the standard. Over the course of the season, Scott and Fred won’t lose us games - but they will be a major contributing factor to the reason why we draw too many games, and why we can’t break many teams down. They, almost by definition, are there to stop us losing games. Less so to actually win them. And that of course is not due to them not scoring enough goals winning goals themselves. It’s about tipping the see-saw more in our favour and helping us sustain attacks and pick the locks .

Maguire may be the player on paper credited with the error that costs us a game, but everyone in front of him is likely more responsible for us being in a position where we are under pressure from some no mark team at home in the first place, which led to the error.

Andy Mitten reckon he stays this summer.

Good news because there was no way we would replace Pogba, Sign a Centre Back and sign an attacker.

And let's be honest not signing a centre back or attacker isn't an option.

And not replacing Pogba isn't an option either. Our midfield would be paper thin and devoid of the ability to pass a ball.

So hopefully what Mitten says is true.

If it isn't we got to pray the Glazers sanction a Van Gall esque summer for Ole where he gets to replace Pogba and get his Centre Back and Attacker that he wants.

This is what happens when you waste last summer.

laughtersassassin said:

Andy Mitten reckon he stays this summer.

Good news because there was no way we would replace Pogba, Sign a Centre Back and sign an attacker.

And let's be honest not signing a centre back or attacker isn't an option.

And not replacing Pogba isn't an option either. Our midfield would be paper thin and devoid of the ability to pass a ball.

So hopefully what Mitten says is true.

If it isn't we got to pray the Glazers sanction a Van Gall esque summer for Ole where he gets to replace Pogba and get his Centre Back and Attacker that he wants.

This is what happens when you waste last summer.

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If he stays then the main priority needs to be a Carrick type player in the summer. The other positions are important but if we want to fully unlock our best two players (Pogba and Bruno) then we need what is essentially a prime Carrick/Matic. This will help in defence and attack as much as signing a forward or defender for me. Of course Pogba needs to actually stay fit.

If the Glazer's had any ambition then they would go balls to the wall with spending this year when its so obviously clear that we are 3 to 4 players away from being outstanding. They won't though.

If he stays this summer, he needs to sign that contract extension. No two ways about it. The club can’t afford to let him go on a free next year after spending 89M on him

SATA said:

If he stays this summer, he needs to sign that contract extension. No two ways about it. The club can’t afford to let him go on a free next year after spending 89M on him

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We are going to have to. As we can’t afford to lose him. We won’t be able to replace him. Might aswell let him stick it out.

Rozay said:

I think you are looking at it the wrong way from the start if you’re waiting to count times McTominay and Fred have ‘lost us games’. That’s the issue with our midfielders. ‘Not doing anything wrong’ isn’t the standard. Over the course of the season, Scott and Fred won’t lose us games - but they will be a major contributing factor to the reason why we draw too many games, and why we can’t break many teams down. They, almost by definition, are there to stop us losing games. Less so to actually win them. And that of course is not due to them not scoring enough goals winning goals themselves. It’s about tipping the see-saw more in our favour and helping us sustain attacks and pick the locks .

Maguire may be the player on paper credited with the error that costs us a game, but everyone in front of him is likely more responsible for us being in a position where we are under pressure from some no mark team at home in the first place, which led to the error.

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They do what they have been told to do, that's down to Ole and that's why both Fred and Scott play the majority of them. We play to not lose with the hope that individual brilliance will get us a goal......

Mainoldo said:

We are going to have to. As we can’t afford to lose him. We won’t be able to replace him. Might aswell let him stick it out.

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What's the minimum we can sell him for before it becomes better value keeping him and letting him go on a free?

30m?

Looking forward to us being bantered for decades over this

horsechoker said:

What's the minimum we can sell him for before it becomes better value keeping him and letting him go on a free?

30m?

Looking forward to us being bantered for decades over this

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I’d say anything below £50m. But when Eden Hazard goes for £130m knowing what he’s done over there. I think anything below £80m would be banter.

So just take the free hit. We got enough value from the deal(Commercially).

horsechoker said:

What's the minimum we can sell him for before it becomes better value keeping him and letting him go on a free?

30m?

Looking forward to us being bantered for decades over this

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the fact we’ve paid 90 million to get him back and might lose him on a free for the second time totally sums us up to a tee post Fergie. Couldn’t get any more Pogba or Glazer than that

if he stays it is an absolute disaster if it means losing out on 70m that we need to use to replace him. ole isn't getting too many 70ms to spend

Litch said:

They do what they have been told to do, that's down to Ole and that's why both Fred and Scott play the majority of them. We play to not lose with the hope that individual brilliance will get us a goal......

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They do what they are capable of doing.

And the reason Fred and Scott have played the many games in the last 18 months because Pogba has been injured and Matic on his last legs. Let’s not act as if they have simply kept PP and Matic on the bench for a year. Prior to lockdown - Matic was in the team ahead of McTominay for most of the games, and after McTominay and Fred’s performance against Spurs in the first game after lockdown - they were barely seen again at all for the remainder of the season. We played a top 4 decider vs Leicester without that partnership, an EL semifinal without that pairing last season while all were fit. This season, in our first game with all available - Pogba started in midfield, and continued to do so for the next few games but was in very poor form and was removed from the XI until he got back up to full fitness. Since he’s been back, PP has started many games in the middle, barring a few games where we have prioritised running power in the middle due to the opposition. He’s again injured, but was again in the team in the middle when he went down. Of course, Matic is getting on and isn’t trusted to play many games as a result.

Ole may want us to play direct football, but that doesn’t mean he wants us to have poor quality on the ball. People said the same things about Klopp for ages too, yet he has been trying to improve the quality of his midfield for a long time, trying to buy Fekir, buying Keita and buying Thiago. The plan is never to pass the ball poorly. I doubt that Ole doesn’t want a better pair of midfielders than Scott and Fred, but it seems it is not being prioritised for now. Perhaps the club feel they will keep Pogba for at least another year, I don’t know - but taking him out of the team, and less of Matic next season, with no quality brought in to compensate will be a big mistake. Expect that ‘D’ column for us in the league table to be very high again if the plan is a pair of Fred and Scott over 38 games. We can’t just think we can put a bunch of great forwards on the pitch with no reliable plan to get the ball to them in the right areas/situations with enough consistency.

Crashoutcassius said:

if he stays it is an absolute disaster if it means losing out on 70m that we need to use to replace him. ole isn't getting too many 70ms to spend

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Which team can afford 70m on him this summer? Not Barca or Madrid. Juventus? Unlikely. Only PSG are viable.

horsechoker said:

What's the minimum we can sell him for before it becomes better value keeping him and letting him go on a free?

30m?

Looking forward to us being bantered for decades over this

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Yep, out free in 89 million and then out free is how we roll... I personally don't think it's a good idea he stays, I'd rather we found a better player for the role Ole wants him to play, as he's a square peg in a round hole for me.

Red_toad said:

Yep, out free in 89 million and then out free is how we roll... I personally don't think it's a good idea he stays, I'd rather we found a better player for the role Ole wants him to play, as he's a square peg in a round hole for me.

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In any case it's terrible financial decision making. When you don't even have that to fall back on, it make you realise what a shambles the club is behind the scenes.

horsechoker said:

What's the minimum we can sell him for before it becomes better value keeping him and letting him go on a free?

30m?

Looking forward to us being bantered for decades over this

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It depends on how much his replacement would cost and whether the entirety of Pogba’s fee is reinvested back into that pursuit.

I think ~£40 million would be a reasonable threshold at this point. Anything lower and I’d feel like we’re getting shafted given the talent Pogba has and the massive commercial entity he is.

There’s a lot of fantastic midfielders who would be in our price range given we’d essentially be able to knock £40 million off their cost in terms of net outlay.

AgentSmith said:

It depends on how much his replacement would cost and whether the entirety of Pogba’s fee is reinvested back into that pursuit.

I think ~£40 million would be a reasonable threshold at this point. Anything lower and I’d feel like we’re getting shafted given the talent Pogba has and the massive commercial entity he is.

There’s a lot of fantastic midfielders who would be in our price range given we’d essentially be able to knock £40 million off their cost in terms of net outlay.

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Like who?

This is the big question for me, I can’t see us getting anyone who is as good. This time last year I suspect many would have had VDB as one of their examples of a midfielder ‘who may not be as talented but is at least committed and would be better for us’, or something, but the reality is, for all his criticism, I think people will struggle to name many better midfielders, and even fewer who United could buy.

With the positions we need to strengthen and the limit on funds - if we are able to kick the can to next summer on this one, will be best for all IMO, as the money it would take to get one of the very top players will be high.

Rozay said:

Like who?

This is the big question for me, I can’t see us getting anyone who is as good. This time last year I suspect many would have had VDB as one of their examples of a midfielder ‘who may not be as talented but is at least committed and would be better for us’, or something, but the reality is, for all his criticism, I think people will struggle to name many better midfielders, and even fewer who United could buy.

With the positions we need to strengthen and the limit on funds - if we are able to kick the can to next summer on this one, will be best for all IMO, as the money it would take to get one of the very top players will be high.

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The replacement for Pogba wouldn’t necessarily have to be a better player than him. They would just have to suit our double pivot system more than he does. A good player in the right system beats a great player in the wrong system every time.

My number one option would be Camavinga but this is probably unrealistic (despite the fact he’s in the last year of his contract, Rennes are going to miss out on European football and French teams have been hit economically by Covid and the cancellation of their TV deal) given he seems set on Madrid. Madrid don’t necessarily seem set on him this year though so there’s definitely room to interject ourselves.

My number one realistic option would be Bennacer at Milan. They play with a double pivot and have struggled whenever he’s not played this season. Think he’d suit us down to the ground.

I don’t really think we have the option to ‘kick the can’ until next season given Pogba will walk for free next year and his agent has repeatedly said he wants to leave this summer.

It doesn’t make sense to keep a player who publicly doesn’t want to be here and doesn’t have a clearly defined role in the starting XI when we essentially have to pay £40 million for the privilege. If Pogba signs a new deal this is of course a different story.

Rozay said:

They do what they are capable of doing.

And the reason Fred and Scott have played the many games in the last 18 months because Pogba has been injured and Matic on his last legs. Let’s not act as if they have simply kept PP and Matic on the bench for a year. Prior to lockdown - Matic was in the team ahead of McTominay for most of the games, and after McTominay and Fred’s performance against Spurs in the first game after lockdown - they were barely seen again at all for the remainder of the season. We played a top 4 decider vs Leicester without that partnership, an EL semifinal without that pairing last season while all were fit. This season, in our first game with all available - Pogba started in midfield, and continued to do so for the next few games but was in very poor form and was removed from the XI until he got back up to full fitness. Since he’s been back, PP has started many games in the middle, barring a few games where we have prioritised running power in the middle due to the opposition. He’s again injured, but was again in the team in the middle when he went down. Of course, Matic is getting on and isn’t trusted to play many games as a result.

Ole may want us to play direct football, but that doesn’t mean he wants us to have poor quality on the ball. People said the same things about Klopp for ages too, yet he has been trying to improve the quality of his midfield for a long time, trying to buy Fekir, buying Keita and buying Thiago. The plan is never to pass the ball poorly. I doubt that Ole doesn’t want a better pair of midfielders than Scott and Fred, but it seems it is not being prioritised for now. Perhaps the club feel they will keep Pogba for at least another year, I don’t know - but taking him out of the team, and less of Matic next season, with no quality brought in to compensate will be a big mistake. Expect that ‘D’ column for us in the league table to be very high again if the plan is a pair of Fred and Scott over 38 games. We can’t just think we can put a bunch of great forwards on the pitch with no reliable plan to get the ball to them in the right areas/situations with enough consistency.

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McFred has often been the least bad option from the fit and available CMs at the club. But no way Ole is happy with their quality in possession. If Pogba could stay fit he should be in the team but the problem then is who to play with him as Matic has had it and no-one else has the discipline and quality to provide the right balance for Pogba, although, with firm instructions and experience, McT might become a good 6.

If down to me, we sell Pogba and buy Grealish but the above problem doesn’t get solved that way. Either way, we need more quality in CM than McFred currently give.

OrcaFat said:

McFred has often been the least bad option from the fit and available CMs at the club. But no way Ole is happy with their quality in possession. If Pogba could stay fit he should be in the team but the problem then is who to play with him as Matic has had it and no-one else has the discipline and quality to provide the right balance for Pogba, although, with firm instructions and experience, McT might become a good 6.

If down to me, we sell Pogba and buy Grealish but the above problem doesn’t get solved that way. Either way, we need more quality in CM than McFred currently give.

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If you sell Pogba and buy Grealish - where will you put him?

When’s he back in training? Anyone know?

Rozay said:

If you sell Pogba and buy Grealish - where will you put him?

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No. 8 !!!

OrcaFat said:

No. 8 !!!

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I think he could play as an 8, but in a double 8 perhaps - not with a 10.

Rozay said:

I think he could play as an 8, but in a double 8 perhaps - not with a 10.

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Yeah, I haven’t thought through all the details as it seems like hard work.

Until now, I never thought of getting Grealish and keeping Pogba. If so we could play two out of Grealish Pogba and Bruno, and rest the third, depending on the opposition etc. Yeah Pogba and Grealish as two no 8s would be exciting.

Rozay said:

They do what they are capable of doing.

And the reason Fred and Scott have played the many games in the last 18 months because Pogba has been injured and Matic on his last legs. Let’s not act as if they have simply kept PP and Matic on the bench for a year. Prior to lockdown - Matic was in the team ahead of McTominay for most of the games, and after McTominay and Fred’s performance against Spurs in the first game after lockdown - they were barely seen again at all for the remainder of the season. We played a top 4 decider vs Leicester without that partnership, an EL semifinal without that pairing last season while all were fit. This season, in our first game with all available - Pogba started in midfield, and continued to do so for the next few games but was in very poor form and was removed from the XI until he got back up to full fitness. Since he’s been back, PP has started many games in the middle, barring a few games where we have prioritised running power in the middle due to the opposition. He’s again injured, but was again in the team in the middle when he went down. Of course, Matic is getting on and isn’t trusted to play many games as a result.

Ole may want us to play direct football, but that doesn’t mean he wants us to have poor quality on the ball. People said the same things about Klopp for ages too, yet he has been trying to improve the quality of his midfield for a long time, trying to buy Fekir, buying Keita and buying Thiago. The plan is never to pass the ball poorly. I doubt that Ole doesn’t want a better pair of midfielders than Scott and Fred, but it seems it is not being prioritised for now. Perhaps the club feel they will keep Pogba for at least another year, I don’t know - but taking him out of the team, and less of Matic next season, with no quality brought in to compensate will be a big mistake. Expect that ‘D’ column for us in the league table to be very high again if the plan is a pair of Fred and Scott over 38 games. We can’t just think we can put a bunch of great forwards on the pitch with no reliable plan to get the ball to them in the right areas/situations with enough consistency.

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Ole clearly prefers Fred and Scott, and general that's been his pairing for the majority of the big games. Yes, back end of the season he went with Pogs and Matic which wasn't a surprise as they had missed pretty much most of it with lack of form or injury so for me they def were better placed to finish it. Prior to that most felt Matic would have been gone that summer and Pogs has only played in moments pretty much most of his time here.

For some reason, some fans seem to be on this perpetual cycle that individual players are the reason for our lack of success and we apportion blame on them, only for them to move on and we continue to stand still. The narrative is the forwards don't get enough of the ball cause we are not creative enough. Have we not won games cause we have not been creative enough when we have scored more goals than most this season? Haven't defensive errors cost us games conceding goals and then struggling to break down the low block? Are you suggesting either of those are on Scott and Fred when they have played anymore different than with Pogs and Matic?

We set up not to lose and hope for individual brilliance to win. This will not change irrespective who we sign if this the mentality of the manager.

roseguy64 said:

Which team can afford 70m on him this summer? Not Barca or Madrid. Juventus? Unlikely. Only PSG are viable.

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Who knows, these clubs could sell players too , anything could happen

Litch said:

Ole clearly prefers Fred and Scott, and general that's been his pairing for the majority of the big games. Yes, back end of the season he went with Pogs and Matic which wasn't a surprise as they had missed pretty much most of it with lack of form or injury so for me they def were better placed to finish it. Prior to that most felt Matic would have been gone that summer and Pogs has only played in moments pretty much most of his time here.

For some reason, some fans seem to be on this perpetual cycle that individual players are the reason for our lack of success and we apportion blame on them, only for them to move on and we continue to stand still. The narrative is the forwards don't get enough of the ball cause we are not creative enough. Have we not won games cause we have not been creative enough when we have scored more goals than most this season? Haven't defensive errors cost us games conceding goals and then struggling to break down the low block? Are you suggesting either of those are on Scott and Fred when they have played anymore different than with Pogs and Matic?

We set up not to lose and hope for individual brilliance to win. This will not change irrespective who we sign if this the mentality of the manager.

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You are providing speculative explanations the facts. What sort of reasoning is ‘of course he went with Pogba and Matic post lockdown because they were better placed to finish the season having missed most of it due to loss of form and injury’. I mean, can you really say that out loud and actually believe that? Why didn’t he start them against Spurs then, in the first game? And if he felt that Scott and Fred were his best options - he would have played them post lockdown when he was trying to get from 5th into the top 4! All players had been rested for 3 months, it is ridiculous to say ‘I’ll go with my lesser preferred option because they have played less of the season’. Pogba started the last season in a midfield 2 from the very first game against Chelsea (and the subsequent games that followed until his injury), started them again when he returned from injury post lockdown and started in the XI again at the start of this season, and has started continued to start them, fitness permitting, bar the odd tactical tweak. Those are facts, indisputable and can easily be looked up. I hate that I have to even point this out as it just looks like ‘look at you, you always defend...’ - but what am I supposed to do? These are facts. He doesn’t ‘clearly prefer Fred and Scott’. I imagine that pairing has started a very small percentage of games as a pair since the start of last season where Pogba has been fit to start. Again, this is not bias from me, it is not a subjective claim and can be looked up.

Nobody is blaming individual players for anything. Football is a team game. But that team is made up of individual footballers! Nobody can say ‘this game would be won of this player played’ on a single occasion of course, and I’m not trying to. The general rule is you try to pick your best team when you can - and if you are unable to do so over a reasonable period of games, then it becomes reasonable to speculate that you may have just had enough to turn some results if you had your first XI. Although to answer one question - yes, I am saying we are more likely to break down a low block with Pogba and Matic over Fred and McTominay. I strongly suspect Fred and McTominay would say the same of asked.

Scott and Fred are both very good players, but neither are top bracket. Speculating that they can be improved upon is wholly logical. If there is any confusion, this will again be demonstrated in coming weeks when Pogba returns to full fitness and Ole, not me, picks him our midfield more often than not. Or more often than the choice he ‘clearly prefers’.

Litch said:

Ole clearly prefers Fred and Scott, and general that's been his pairing for the majority of the big games. Yes, back end of the season he went with Pogs and Matic which wasn't a surprise as they had missed pretty much most of it with lack of form or injury so for me they def were better placed to finish it. Prior to that most felt Matic would have been gone that summer and Pogs has only played in moments pretty much most of his time here.

For some reason, some fans seem to be on this perpetual cycle that individual players are the reason for our lack of success and we apportion blame on them, only for them to move on and we continue to stand still. The narrative is the forwards don't get enough of the ball cause we are not creative enough. Have we not won games cause we have not been creative enough when we have scored more goals than most this season? Haven't defensive errors cost us games conceding goals and then struggling to break down the low block? Are you suggesting either of those are on Scott and Fred when they have played anymore different than with Pogs and Matic?

We set up not to lose and hope for individual brilliance to win. This will not change irrespective who we sign if this the mentality of the manager.

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Very unconvincing arguments I’m afraid.

Better players in that midfield will improve the team regardless of problems in defence and up front.

Ole has been rather defensive against teams with better players and that is just common sense but to say we set up not to lose is nonsense. We’re still top scorers in the league.

Ole will not necessarily prefer McFred when Pogba is fit but the fact that he often selects both McT and Fred reflects each of their shortcomings ie neither is good enough to partner a more attacking CM against better teams. Just because they get selected it doesn’t mean Ole is happy about it, his options are all unsatisfactory.

For the love of everything pure, Paul please come back

Badly missing this man, we was so in form and we were banging in the goals when he was around. Come back quick Pogs, we need you!

Yeah we definitely don't need to replace him in the summer. With a midfield of McTominay, Fred, Matic and Donny, the sky is the limit

We've gone to shit since his injury

really missing him....

Without him, no midfield.

Good job we don't have him in midfield thinking he's sumthin' hey?

He will leave because he can't waste any more of his prime years.

Hilarious the posters who think Pogba is the problem

Godfather said:

We've gone to shit since his injury

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We were kind of shit before his injury too. We miss his recent habit of scoring important goals but the rot had already set in when he was still playing.

Pogue Mahone said:

We were kind of shit before his injury too. We miss his recent habit of scoring important goals but the rot had already set in when he was still playing.

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Well I agree we havent looked all that even before but a performance like today is a new low. Incredible stuff

Godfather said:

Well I agree we havent looked all that even before but a performance like today is a new low. Incredible stuff

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If only. We’ve had worse performances this season. Including a game against the same opposition!

There are threads about the “bottom level” of individual players but the bottom level of United under Ole is quite something. Diabolical stuff.

Pogue Mahone said:

We were kind of shit before his injury too. We miss his recent habit of scoring important goals but the rot had already set in when he was still playing.

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Trust to put a negative slant.....could be that Pogba was dragging us through games despite the team....but no....the rot had set in ffs