United's form since going Top of the Table in January

Champ

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Every team in the Prem apart from the one with the insanely deep squad is struggling right now.

Every single one.
They're not listening on here,

All rationale and balance has gone in this thread.
 

Rado_N

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Yet we sit second still.

Our form isn't great, but other than City, no other team is in great form either.
The only reason City are in the position they are in is due to the strength in depth they possess.

We are second.
:lol:
 

Wumminator

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It's a fair point and we shouldn't be surprised that the team with two first elevens and a bottomless pit of cash is miles ahead.
Absolutely not at all.
In the last two games City have rested players like Sterling, Aguero, Cancelo, Laporte for a full 90 minutes.

We are struggling to win and we have two teenagers and Dan James.
Nothing to do with coaching. Nothing to do with Rashford being shit.
 

The Urban Goose

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Sack Klopp sell Salah.

No, wait. Sack Tuchel sell Havertz.

No, wait. Sack Rodgers sell Vardy?
 

Champ

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Its understandable for Ole ins to want to deviate on this 'reshaping of the squad'. After all Ole had won jack shit despite spending nearly 300m worth of players. Even washed up managers like LVG and Mou were able to bring trophies home.


But let's play on your turf.

Ole invested around 145m in defence and we tend to play with 2 enforcers in midfield. Yet we conceded more goals to the likes of West Ham, Villa and Arsenal. But hey we need another 80m CB to make our previous 80m CB look decent.
In midfield Bruno had been a top top signing. He's probably the reason why Ole is still in the job while Rashford had been doing very well. However Greenwood, James, Lingard and Martial had regressed while Mata seem to have vanished in thin wind

The forward line had been an utter mess. Ole extended Ighalo's deal only not to play him. As said before Martial had regressed. Cavani had done meah but he's not a solution while Ole's failure to persuade his prodigy to sign for us rather then Dortmund needs to be noted.

Ole ins love to target Mourinho and LVG regarding signings. What they fail to do though is pointing out that Ole had signed 1 top player. The rest varied from meah (Maguire, AWB, Cavani) to not good enough (James) right till to non existent (Telles, VDB, Ighalo, Diallo). Its ironic how bar Bruno, all our top players are either youths who were given a shot by previous managers (ex Rashford) or signings from previous managers (ex Shaw in defence, McT and Fred in midfield etc). Its also ironic to see fans getting at Nagelsmann back despite the guy is younger then Ole and had knocked him off the CL despite managing a team on a ridiculous budget. Leipzig net transfer cost for the past 4 years is probably less to what we paid for Maguire.

To conclude Ole is a great man manager. However he seems reluctant to

a- allowing non mates to join his coaching staff,
b- trusting players outside the EPL
c- come out with a plan b especially during the game.

If that's true then he's not good enough for United.
With all due respect, how much money and how many options did Pep go through to get his defence right? Goalkeeper right? Etc.
We concede goals because we play a very high line often leaving our defence exposed, the two holding midfielders are often not really 'holding', Fred and McT are usually very high up the pitch, our only 'holding' midfielder is Matic.
This would signify an attacking intent in tactics.
With regards to Naglesmann, I feel this needs to be mentioned, quite a lot of Leipzigs transfers come from RB Salzburg, for less money than the player is often worth. It's a 'farming' operation essentially, so it's not really a direct comparison with any other clubs transfer operations.
Last night was awful, but I do feel people on here need to be realistic, we are probably where we belong, if not slightly above where we belong in the table.
 

UpWithRivers

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Its just so damn frustrating. Put aside our league position and the fact we have lost 1 in 10 and look at it from a pure performance perspective. Are we playing to our potential? Thats an obvious No from anyone's perspective. We just need to be a team on form, playing well and if we loose we loose. But its not been that way. We have been sht. No one is really on form. Maybe Shaw. A few doing ok. Attack has gone. We really shouldn't need a spark in attack when we have Fernandes, Cavani, Rashford, Martial and Greenwood. But for some reason they are all being overshadowed by friggin James!
 

Kostov

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We are not a good side when the games start to really count. There's a mental block.
While I agree there's a mental part, however we are also a team lacking in lots of areas. We lack a quality CDM, RW and add to that CB and a striker. Add to that losing Pogba, and Rashford/Martial/Greenwood horribly out of any sort of form, you get a team that can't score a goal.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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This season is definitely starting to remind me of Mourinhos second season. Sure we are second but the performances haven’t been good enough all season. You can get away with afew games of poor form but a whole season? I don’t think that’s acceptable. The progress that Ole was making is quickly dissolving again.
 

TMDaines

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Worse than the results are the underlying performances. We earned 15 points and our expected points were only 16.56 according to Understat. We’ve hardly been unlucky.
 

Bebestation

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Its understandable for Ole ins to want to deviate on this 'reshaping of the squad'. After all Ole had won jack shit despite spending nearly 300m worth of players. Even washed up managers like LVG and Mou were able to bring trophies home.


But let's play on your turf.

Ole invested around 145m in defence and we tend to play with 2 enforcers in midfield. Yet we conceded more goals to the likes of West Ham, Villa and Arsenal. But hey we need another 80m CB to make our previous 80m CB look decent.
In midfield Bruno had been a top top signing. He's probably the reason why Ole is still in the job while Rashford had been doing very well. However Greenwood, James, Lingard and Martial had regressed while Mata seem to have vanished in thin wind

The forward line had been an utter mess. Ole extended Ighalo's deal only not to play him. As said before Martial had regressed. Cavani had done meah but he's not a solution while Ole's failure to persuade his prodigy to sign for us rather then Dortmund needs to be noted.


Ole ins love to target Mourinho and LVG regarding signings. What they fail to do though is pointing out that Ole had signed 1 top player. The rest varied from meah (Maguire, AWB, Cavani) to not good enough (James) right till to non existent (Telles, VDB, Ighalo, Diallo). Its ironic how bar Bruno, all our top players are either youths who were given a shot by previous managers (ex Rashford) or signings from previous managers (ex Shaw in defence, McT and Fred in midfield etc). They love to point how top young players had regressed under them. Yet they also deviate from the fact that Martial, James, AWB and Greenwood had regressed under Ole after starting so well. Not to forget that we were all livid when Mou kept Fred out of the squad. Yet Ole ins seem to refuse getting enraged with Ole doing the same to Diallo and VDB with the latter being far more rated then Fred ever was. Its also ironic to see fans getting at Nagelsmann back despite the guy is younger then Ole and had knocked him off the CL despite managing a team on a ridiculous budget. Leipzig net transfer cost for the past 4 years is probably less to what we paid for Maguire.


To conclude Ole is a great man manager. However he seems reluctant to

a- allowing non mates to join his coaching staff,
b- trusting players outside the EPL
c- come out with a plan b especially during the game.

If that's true then he's not good enough for United.
You really think 300 million is alot for a team that floats around 6 when at the bottom and floated once at 2nd during Jose's traditional second season success? The guy let go of Lukaku for 75 million (a player heavily focus on Jose tactics) out of that 300 million and still has not been replaced striker for striker, which he was going to do with Haaland. If we had signed Sancho last season then I could understand the Ole outs - but one moment they are backing Greenwood for having a second season syndrome and the next blaming Ole for struggling without a RW performing. Same with Martial, saying he is not good enough and needs replacing but also blaming Ole.

To be fair, I cant be bothered. I know this is a discussion place but the fact that Ole isnt going anywhere unless he drops out of 4 makes me :drool:against the ole outters and the glory hunters.

I will be happy of this building up a squad thing for another year. We havent had some stability as a CL competitive team with the ability to attract some top players in to the club.

If we are not successful when the time is right then Ole has to go, I can clearly see that Ole gets in to runs of wins vs runs of poor results (though I think his first seasons run of poor results is worse than the ones we see this season, draws instead of losses etc). Hopefully one day we can reduce our poor spells and its results, until then we have Ole doing a DOF's job from the managers seat much like SAF did during his last 12 years :drool: I will enjoy that whilst the Ole outers wont, who believe any manager can be a DOF of United from the managers seat without having the tactics effect who he wants and does not want.
 

Rood

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Yeah many said that if Ole kept trying to fight on multiple fronts that at some point we were going to pay the price and now it has come home to roost, personally I would never have appointed him on a permanent basis in the first place way back in March 2019 but he could at least be willing to take more risks in games or bring in better coaching rather that just giving jobs to his old Utd mates
Well it's not come home yet, we are still 2nd and in 2 cups but now have a crazy run of games coming up and Ole is going to have to rotate a lot more to have any chance of navigating through to April

I think Ole has done a great job in general but a major weakness remains on squad management and that for me is the main reason for the drop in form last 2 months
 

Roboc7

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People got too carried with the ‘progress’, always felt like this was a house of cards ready to fall down, Ole isn’t really doing anything sustainable.

Ole doesn’t rock the boat and offers stable mediocrity, also allows people to lap up nonsense about culture, Utd way and pretend next year is our year.
 

Smores

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I knew as soon as someone made that fatigue thread we'd have the sheeple spread it in every thread. Pathetic stuff really.

We improve our form and it's on Ole. We hit bad form and it's the players and fatigue, every single time.
 

Sing you a song

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Yet we sit second still.

Our form isn't great, but other than City, no other team is in great form either.
The only reason City are in the position they are in is due to the strength in depth they possess.

We are second.
Generally I agree but most worrying is that we are playing so poorly we desperately need our forwards to start scoring because we have been so reliant on Bruno . I’m worried that we will be clinging on got top 4 by the end of the season . Still in 2 cups with a very limited squad the players look exhausted with still so many games still to play. Need Pogba back and the forwards to hit form
 

Vault Dweller

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Yet we sit second still.

Our form isn't great, but other than City, no other team is in great form either.
The only reason City are in the position they are in is due to the strength in depth they possess.

We are second.
Not for long at this rate. City on Sunday, West Ham the week after then Spurs away. Could very easily be out the top 4 by 2nd week in April.
 

Judge Red

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We’re fortunate that Leicester have also started their now customary top four collapse under Rodgers and that Chelsea and Liverpool face each other tonight. We’re somehow still gonna be in the top four after City thrash us.

Then we’ve got West Ham and that’s when we might be able to hope the players will show signs of life again for the first time since January and come away with a plucky score draw.
 

Idxomer

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I knew as soon as someone made that fatigue thread we'd have the sheeple spread it in every thread. Pathetic stuff really.

We improve our form and it's on Ole. We hit bad form and it's the players and fatigue, every single time.
3rd time now after the meltdown in his 1st season and the limping last season.

Didn't he promise we would be the fittest team in the league or something?

Maybe he thinks he achieved that already, and this is the reason he keeps playing Bruno, Maguire, and Rashford every game and doesn't bother with subs.
 

bsCallout

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Awful form. Our squad depth is poor and we've really picked up a few injuries at a horrible time when we need to be able to rotate.

That looked like a team that had played a full season and were done.

It's going to be a bumpy ride to the finish line, hopefully we get a couple of players back, manage to get a lucky win against City and push on until the end of the season.
 

Stactix

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Could very easily fall out of the top 4 and I think if that happens he has to go..
 

AltiUn

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Could very easily fall out of the top 4 and I think if that happens he has to go..
We could but our competition has been absolutely shite as well, everyone's struggling this season, players are dropping like flies.

I'm still very disappointed with some of the lethargic performances but it's not like we're the only ones. I can't see him being allowed to continue if he misses out on top 4.
 

#07

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Bottle jobs. Simple as.
 

acnumber9

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Why isn't it ok?
It obviously shows that this season is a unique one off with regards to the amount of football played and the timeframes it's being played in.
Other teams are struggling with it, we're struggling too, just not as much as them as we are second.
City are outliers due to their ability to rotate their squad and not lose any quality.
Why wasn’t it ok for Mourinho? Finishing second would qualify as an ok season. The problem currently is that there are 11 games left and we have no real cushion to speak of between us and 5th. With European and FA Cup campaigns to contend with. Us actually finishing second will need a big fecking improvement.

These kind of performance are what people were complaining about two months ago and were told to stop complaining because we’re top. These performances were always going to catch up to us. And they’ve gotten worse. Now it’s stop complaining, we’re second. I fear stop complaining, we’re third is only around the corner.
 

hubbuh

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We have an extremely weak core which is made doubly worse by the fact that almost all of our attacking play comes from one man. We're easy to get at and far too easy to keep out at times.

'Yeah but City have unlimited cash' is basically an omission that there's no point even trying. City aren't going anywhere, the Glazers aren't going anywhere. We have to suck it up and make the best of it. Drawing nil nil to Palace or losing to Sheffield United has nothing to do with City. We've failed to integrate VdB, a not cheap creative midfielder who might as well not be here. There's a distinct lack of boldness in the tactics (do we need to play with 2 DMs at all times?!), a lack of boldness in the substitutes and a lack of boldness in the transfers (£200m on Maguire, AWB, VdB, Telles, and James looks to be incredibly bad value for money). I don't know what the solution is at this point, but we've been suckered by yet another false dawn. We're as far away from the top as we've been under LvG, Mourinho etc. so mindlessly repeating 'But we're second, but we're second' while sticking fingers in the ears is meaningless. Big blurgh.
 

devilish

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You really think 300 million is alot for a team that floats around 6 when at the bottom and floated once at 2nd during Jose's traditional second season success? The guy let go of Lukaku for 75 million (a player heavily focus on Jose tactics) out of that 300 million and still has not been replaced striker for striker, which he was going to do with Haaland. If we had signed Sancho last season then I could understand the Ole outs - but one moment they are backing Greenwood for having a second season syndrome and the next blaming Ole for struggling without a RW performing. Same with Martial, saying he is not good enough and needs replacing but also blaming Ole.

To be fair, I cant be bothered. I know this is a discussion place but the fact that Ole isnt going anywhere unless he drops out of 4 makes me :drool:against the ole outters and the glory hunters.

I will be happy of this building up a squad thing for another year. We havent had some stability as a CL competitive team with the ability to attract some top players in to the club.

If we are not successful when the time is right then Ole has to go, I can clearly see that Ole gets in to runs of wins vs runs of poor results (though I think his first seasons run of poor results is worse than the ones we see this season, draws instead of losses etc). Hopefully one day we can reduce our poor spells and its results, until then we have Ole doing a DOF's job from the managers seat much like SAF did during his last 12 years :drool: I will enjoy that whilst the Ole outers wont, who believe any manager can be a DOF of United from the managers seat without having the tactics effect who he wants and does not want.
Net spend makes sense if after selling players you buy better players that are value. If I have a mansion of 5m, I sell it for 7m and then I spend all the dosh on smarties then that's really value at all.

Lukaku was poorly managed at United. He had grown ridiculously fat and out of form. Instead of properly investigating the reason why Lukaku was in such lousy condition and then integrate him into a system that suits him and us (which is exactly what Conte did), we sold him up for 70m. We then used that money to pay part of the Maguire deal. Long story short, Inter got a striker who already scored 18 goals this season while we need another 80m CB to make the current 80m CB look good + we also lack a top striker who can score those amount of goals. That doesn't sound like proper squad building to me. The same can be said about spending around 90m in VDB, Diallo, Telles and Pellistri only for us to barely giving them a sniff of first team football. Mou was (and rightly so) crucified for freezing Fred. Standards seem different for Ole.

Regarding glory hunters, we haven't won the league since Sir Alex left. I very much doubt there are any glory hunters left.

To conclude I think that Ole is better then his predecessors. However that really doesn't set the bar. Moyes was ridiculously out of depth while Mourinho and LVG are obsolete. There's a reason why LVG had retired and Mou is making a fool of himself at Spurs.
 

devilish

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With all due respect, how much money and how many options did Pep go through to get his defence right? Goalkeeper right? Etc.
We concede goals because we play a very high line often leaving our defence exposed, the two holding midfielders are often not really 'holding', Fred and McT are usually very high up the pitch, our only 'holding' midfielder is Matic.
This would signify an attacking intent in tactics.
With regards to Naglesmann, I feel this needs to be mentioned, quite a lot of Leipzigs transfers come from RB Salzburg, for less money than the player is often worth. It's a 'farming' operation essentially, so it's not really a direct comparison with any other clubs transfer operations.
Last night was awful, but I do feel people on here need to be realistic, we are probably where we belong, if not slightly above where we belong in the table.
I don't really give a feck about Pep. The guy manages a petro rich club who can throw money around as it pleases them. Once the money tree dries out he moves elsewhere. We were never in that position which is why Pep chose City over us in the first place.

We won titles because our scouts were smart, our coaches coach players properly and Sir Alex/Busby knew what they are doing. Ole should understand that better as he's the living embodiment to all of that. Imagine if Sir Alex froze the then unknown 23 year old striker from Molde simply because he's neither Alan Shearer nor Gabriel Batistuta. Ole's experience with United would be very very different.

If we're planning of winning things based solely on the brilliance of individual players then we might as well sack Ole, hire somebody on cheap (Butt?) and spend all the money on top players. There's a reason why Sir Alex believed that the managerial role was the biggest role at the club. That's because during his time that was truly the case. I don't feel the same vibes with Ole.
 

SAFMUTD

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Could any manager in the world with this squad have kept pace with 21 wins in a row Man City?

Could you answer the question please?

Give over with same old boring mediocrity crap, Ole took over a team that hadn’t won a league title in 7 years, he didn’t take over from an unstoppable winning machine, stop living in the past and get real.
If you mean winning 21 in a row then No I dont think any manager could kept pace, but for sure there are managers that would have us within reach.

Ole took over a team that hadn't won the league in 7 years and after roughly 300M spent he turn it into a 9 years without a title team, and with him we'll become a 10, 11,12, etc team without a league win.

Again saying that just because City has won 21 in a row then it doesn't matter how shitty we are is mediocrity.
 

Champ

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I don't really give a feck about Pep. The guy manages a petro rich club who can throw money around as it pleases them. Once the money tree dries out he moves elsewhere. We were never in that position which is why Pep chose City over us in the first place.

We won titles because our scouts were smart, our coaches coach players properly and Sir Alex/Busby knew what they are doing. Ole should understand that better as he's the living embodiment to all of that. Imagine if Sir Alex froze the then unknown 23 year old striker from Molde simply because he's neither Alan Shearer nor Gabriel Batistuta. Ole's experience with United would be very very different.

If we're planning of winning things based solely on the brilliance of individual players then we might as well sack Ole, hire somebody on cheap (Butt?) and spend all the money on top players. There's a reason why Sir Alex believed that the managerial role was the biggest role at the club. That's because during his time that was truly the case. I don't feel the same vibes with Ole.
You disregard what's going on with pep, yet start harping on about SAF.
Sir Alex has no relevance to what's going on today.
We are not sitting at the top table anymore, we need to realise that. Just getting back to the too table is the idea this season, always has been.
We are nearly there. The next few weeks will define this progress, get 9 points from the next four games and we will be in a very very good position.
 

gerdm07

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This again? After tonight I'd love to see what we could do with competent coaching. Massive gut punch the last few weeks
When Rashford can't control most balls and his dribbling is that the coach's fault?
When Fred misplaces pass after pass is that the coach's fault?
When Bruno tries a curling 40 yard pass and it goes straight to his opponent 20 yards away is that the coach's fault?
When Greenwood uncharacteristically loses the ball dribbling and passing is that the coach's fault?
 

devilish

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You disregard what's going on with pep, yet start harping on about SAF.
Sir Alex has no relevance to what's going on today.
We are not sitting at the top table anymore, we need to realise that. Just getting back to the too table is the idea this season, always has been.
We are nearly there. The next few weeks will define this progress, get 9 points from the next four games and we will be in a very very good position.
I disregard anything coming from clubs with unlimited funds. We can't arm wrestle them on their own terms. Hence why we need to be smart and use our money wisely. Which is what Sir Alex did, what Ranieri did in 2015-2016 and what Klopp did just few months ago.

And we're nowhere near there. Defence is still weak despite the fact we've spent 145m in it. We're too reliant on Bruno in midfield despite the club spent good money on VDB and the forward line is non existent.

Ole is an upgrade on his predecessors. He's got a vision, he's still hungry (something that Moyes never was and LVG/Mou had lost) and he's an excellent man manager. However there's many aspects in his game that makes you wonder if he's good enough. His tactics are meah, his coaching is weak, he's got no plan B and he's stubborn both in terms of relying on substitutions or trusting the alternative option to the usually very expensive local boy he wants. On top of that he likes to surround with like minded mates which won't help him challenge his views or bring new ideas into the mix.
 

spiriticon

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As soon as we got beat by Sheffield United I had a feeling it was the start of a 'cold run'.

I support Ole and think he's done alright, but if he cannot find a solution to this 'hot run/'cold run' problem that our team has had in all of his seasons in charge, then it leads me to believe that he has taken the team as far as he can.

We will never win the title with this level of moodiness in the team.
 

Gio

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I don't think it has much to do with mentality, the fine margins that got us top aren't just there at the moment. See Rashford deflected goal vs Wolves, Pogba's penalty vs Villa, his deflected goal vs Burnley, and so on.

The performances from before going top and now aren't much different.
This. There was a slight over-performance to get to 1st place - 9 wins in 11 - offset by a slight under-performance since then. But that good-spell-followed-by-bad-spell is just normal form for a team that isn't quite there yet. Nothing to do with bottle, much more to do with ability.
 

croadyman

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Well it's not come home yet, we are still 2nd and in 2 cups but now have a crazy run of games coming up and Ole is going to have to rotate a lot more to have any chance of navigating through to April

I think Ole has done a great job in general but a major weakness remains on squad management and that for me is the main reason for the drop in form last 2 months
Wish people would stop dining out on this second place when it feels very similar to under Jose in 17/18 when we were also a fair distance away from City too. He really should have brought on Amad/Shoretire last night because they certainly wouldn't have done any worse than anyone else.
 

Greck

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When Rashford can't control most balls and his dribbling is that the coach's fault?
When Fred misplaces pass after pass is that the coach's fault?
When Bruno tries a curling 40 yard pass and it goes straight to his opponent 20 yards away is that the coach's fault?
When Greenwood uncharacteristically loses the ball dribbling and passing is that the coach's fault?
I could make a similar response saying "Is x defender fouling and giving us penalty the coach's doing?" or "is Bruno being a good footballer Ole's doing?" but we both know that would be moronic. Boiling down a an entire run of form to single instances of misplaced passing or bad control is just that. Btw that was also the subtext behind the post. Not pick and choose who should get blame when we win and fault when we lose. The run of form is a massive fail for both the players and the coaches
 

Hughie77

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It's a fair point and we shouldn't be surprised that the team with two first elevens and a bottomless pit of cash is miles ahead.
Agree, but there form was way off to begin with, but there established players have grown into the season, what still gives me concerns are that there rapid recovery after matches are still the same even when deep squad strength clubs are finding difficulties in this.