Westminster Politics

RedChip

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I am not ignoring it, you keep using Germany as a success, which iam saying its not.
I don't think I have mentioned the word success once in replying to you.
Bar the first lockdown, if the U.K had not botched it so bad, it would be inline with the rest of Europe,
Right; keep telling yourself that. At least 50k more deaths with a smaller population...

We are going around in circles. So I am out.
 

starman

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I don't think I have mentioned the word success once in replying to you.

Right; keep telling yourself that. At least 50k more deaths with a smaller population...

We are going around in circles. So I am out.
You used the word "worked" does that not mean success from the point of creation? Or its just functional..

Yeah, when Germany & the UK came out of their first lockdown, Germany had around 10k deaths, UK 40k, again, different population density. No botched lockdown and it will be very similar from June 2020

But you haven't even backed up what you said about the app and gone off in another direction. Typical
 
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dumbo

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As a Classical Liberal I have to ask why should nurses get a pay rise now? The pandemonium is almost over and the vaccines are flying out. Nurses will be having an increasingly easy job going forward and will have a chance to kick back a little as the economy starts to shift up a gear. The focus should be on wealth creation and the clear blue skies on the horizon.
 

Drainy

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As a Classical Liberal I have to ask why should nurses get a pay rise now? The pandemonium is almost over and the vaccines are flying out. Nurses will be having an increasingly easy job going forward and will have a chance to kick back a little as the economy starts to shift up a gear. The focus should be on wealth creation and the clear blue skies on the horizon.
:lol:
 

One Night Only

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Instead of increasing NHS staff pay, would they not be better off changing their tax bracket so they have a higher threshold before they pay tax? Means they get more take home pay but with the same annual salary as current? Or lowering their NI payments?

Or does this work out the same anyway as the govt would earn less from tax?
 

Skills

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Instead of increasing NHS staff pay, would they not be better off changing their tax bracket so they have a higher threshold before they pay tax? Means they get more take home pay but with the same annual salary as current? Or lowering their NI payments?

Or does this work out the same anyway as the govt would earn less from tax?
Why would you do that? Sounds like an income tax nightmare creating special tax brackets for different professions
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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It isn't blaming them for people losing their jobs, but them feeling sorry for themselves that bugs me. Nurses tend to feel like they are hard done by, but you can be in a hell of a lot worse positions. They have a good wage (anyone struggling on 33k per year needs to sort themselves out) and being in the public sector means their jobs are more secure. They are guaranteed to be paid overtime, which isn't the case for private firms. A lot of private firms do not even pay overtime and yet will expect it to be worked. (Whether you do or not is another matter, but the pressure exists).

A lot of private companies are not going to be giving their employees pay rises this year. It is understandable that the government freezes pay rises this year, particularly with the expenditure. I just do not understand the sense of entitlement people have towards a pay rise for doing their job. If they weren't getting paid overtime, it would be understandable. If they want better pay, they have to take things into their own hands as most people do with moving jobs.

Also, this idea of being due a pay rise every year only seems to exist in the public sector. The vast majority of jobs will not provide a pay rise year on year.

Nurses etc. have it much better than they try and make out.
Do you ever stop and think “Would the world be a better place if everyone shared my views?” If not, I can guarantee you that it wouldn’t be.
 

Buster15

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It isn't blaming them for people losing their jobs, but them feeling sorry for themselves that bugs me. Nurses tend to feel like they are hard done by, but you can be in a hell of a lot worse positions. They have a good wage (anyone struggling on 33k per year needs to sort themselves out) and being in the public sector means their jobs are more secure. They are guaranteed to be paid overtime, which isn't the case for private firms. A lot of private firms do not even pay overtime and yet will expect it to be worked. (Whether you do or not is another matter, but the pressure exists).

A lot of private companies are not going to be giving their employees pay rises this year. It is understandable that the government freezes pay rises this year, particularly with the expenditure. I just do not understand the sense of entitlement people have towards a pay rise for doing their job. If they weren't getting paid overtime, it would be understandable. If they want better pay, they have to take things into their own hands as most people do with moving jobs.

Also, this idea of being due a pay rise every year only seems to exist in the public sector. The vast majority of jobs will not provide a pay rise year on year.

Nurses etc. have it much better than they try and make out.
Are you talking from experience, having been a nurse in the NHS then??
Or just pontificating...
 

Maticmaker

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Paying off a nations large debt is never going to make any Chancellor popular.

Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?
 

Buster15

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Instead of increasing NHS staff pay, would they not be better off changing their tax bracket so they have a higher threshold before they pay tax? Means they get more take home pay but with the same annual salary as current? Or lowering their NI payments?

Or does this work out the same anyway as the govt would earn less from tax?
Sounds like an overly complicated way of rewarding them. Especially as some who work part-time may be below the tax threshold.
Just do the right thing and reward them properly.
 

Buster15

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Paying off a nations large debt is never going to make any Chancellor popular.

Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?
Don't kid yourself. Given the size of the level of borrowing, not just last and this year, the government is going to be borrowing for many years to come. It has said that many times to take advantage of the low interest rates.
 

711

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Paying off a nations large debt is never going to make any Chancellor popular.

Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?
Is he paying off any debt though? I thought it was more a case of trying to reduce the increase by a midge's, and we are still leaving the debt to our children etc as it is.

The difficulty is minimising debt whilst maintaining growth of course. I'd rather have a Gordon Brown doing that personally, I suppose we would need Sunak to stay in position for a few years before we know how good he is, or what his real philosophy is.
 

NinjaFletch

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Paying off a nations large debt is never going to make any Chancellor popular.

Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?
Hey that's a great idea.

Tell you what, why don't we start by scraping Brexit and save all that money we're pissing away on that? After all, your children grand children and great grandchildren hate the idea, and they're the ones that really matter here.
 

Maticmaker

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Don't kid yourself. Given the size of the level of borrowing, not just last and this year, the government is going to be borrowing for many years to come. It has said that many times to take advantage of the low interest rates.
Oh dear, if that is the case, I better make sure my 'stash' of £2 coins comes out of the pot-pig and goes into a 'cast iron' Trust fund for the great grandkids. :rolleyes:
 

Buster15

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Is he paying off any debt though? I thought it was more a case of trying to reduce the increase by a midge's, and we are still leaving the debt to our children etc as it is.

The difficulty is minimising debt whilst maintaining growth of course. I'd rather have a Gordon Brown doing that personally, I suppose we would need Sunak to stay in position for a few years before we know how good he is, or what his real philosophy is.
My view entirely.
Gordon Brown wasn't a great PM. But he was a good Chancellor and very pragmatic.
As I have mentioned before, Sunak should be judged on how he reduces the level of borrowing and debt. Anyone can throw money around in a national emergency and many fiscal policy decisions are government rather than Sunak.
 

Maticmaker

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Is he paying off any debt though?
Exactly, Sunak's doing the old three card trick, now you see it now you don't! It will all depend on how long he can borrow money cheaply!

Tell you what, why don't we start by scraping Brexit and save all that money we're pissing away on that? After all, your children grand children and great grandchildren hate the idea, and they're the ones that really matter here.
No its too late for that the money's already been spent on Brexit, it has to work now, 'sunny uplands' etc. Grandkids will love it, honest ask Boris!!
 

NinjaFletch

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Exactly, Sunak's doing the old three card trick, now you see it now you don't! It will all depend on how long he can borrow money cheaply!



No its too late for that the money's already been spent on Brexit, it has to work now, 'sunny uplands' etc. Grandkids will love it, honest ask Boris!!
Well quite, I just think it's a a bit galling to turn all Helen Lovejoy in defence of Sunak's budget when you've largely been in favour of an economic act of self sabotage despite what the youngest generations think on the issue.
 

Maticmaker

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Well quite, I just think it's a a bit galling to turn all Helen Lovejoy in defence of Sunak's budget when you've largely been in favour of an economic act of self sabotage despite what the youngest generations think on the issue.
Who is defending his budget? I'm saying he is becoming a master of the three card trick and as @711 implied, wait until he 'runs out of road', or being able to borrow cheaply!

I'm fed up with saying this, but the Brexit referendum result was nothing to do with economics, if it had then the result would have been different, that's why the result went as it did.
Remain fought the wrong battle, on the wrong ground, with the wrong weapons, and they were supposed to be the bright sparks!
 

NinjaFletch

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Who is defending his budget? I'm saying he is becoming a master of the three card trick and as @711 implied, wait until he 'runs out of road', or being able to borrow cheaply!

I'm fed up with saying this, but the Brexit referendum result was nothing to do with economics, if it had then the result would have been different, that's why the result went as it did.
Remain fought the wrong battle, on the wrong ground, with the wrong weapons, and they were supposed to be the bright sparks!
'Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?'

Now maybe my grasp of the English language is failing me, but that seems awfully like you said: Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?
 

Ayush_reddevil

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As a Doctor I have always believed that the nurses have by far the hardest job in any medical setup and deserve to be paid more . Having moved here from India it's always amazed me that the pay rises in NHS are so low in general considering you have fixed contracts for most NHS jobs . I am not comfortable with the idea of higher pay rise because we have had a hard year but I also hate this idea of how somehow paying nurses extra is against other things in the country because of expenses . It's a classic government strategy to kind of make people fight each other rather than the government
 

Maticmaker

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'Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?'

Now maybe my grasp of the English language is failing me, but that seems awfully like you said: Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?
He's is getting by at the moment with public opinion, and many people think the sun shines etc. The leaving it to future generations was my attempt at irony, whatever Sunak does it will definitely get passed down to the kids and grandkids, maybe even great grandkids.

That is unless he attempts some sort of 'kamikaze' approach to his budgets over the next few years.
 

NinjaFletch

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He's is getting by at the moment with public opinion, and many people think the sun shines etc. The leaving it to future generations was my attempt at irony, whatever Sunak does it will definitely get passed down to the kids and grandkids, maybe even great grandkids.

That is unless he attempts some sort of 'kamikaze' approach to his budgets over the next few years.
Well that we can agree on, because Sunak's been on the wrong side of the debate on some of the most idiotic decisions the Tories have taken (like delaying lockdown) and largely emerged unscathed. Seemingly for reasons that revolve around him wearing a slim fit suit- at least that was the gushing, sycophantic take the Guardian came up with this week.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Who is defending his budget? I'm saying he is becoming a master of the three card trick and as @711 implied, wait until he 'runs out of road', or being able to borrow cheaply!

I'm fed up with saying this, but the Brexit referendum result was nothing to do with economics, if it had then the result would have been different, that's why the result went as it did.
Remain fought the wrong battle, on the wrong ground, with the wrong weapons, and they were supposed to be the bright sparks!
We know what the reason was for Brexit but the Brexiters have not yet admitted it. The "left behinds" is an economic argument.
As Sunak thinks Brexit was a good idea and his job centres around economics it doesn't bode well for his future as Chancellor.

Eagerly awaiting the next stunt regarding Freeports.
 

Maticmaker

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Seemingly for reasons that revolve around him wearing a slim fit suit- at least that was the gushing, sycophantic take the Guardian came up with this week.
Well that's a new one on me ...his suit!! :)

Although come to think of it I have heard some of the females in my family refer to his appearance... you know you are getting old when you hear of Chancellors being judged on their attire rather than policies!
 

Buster15

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We know what the reason was for Brexit but the Brexiters have not yet admitted it. The "left behinds" is an economic argument.
As Sunak thinks Brexit was a good idea and his job centres around economics it doesn't bode well for his future as Chancellor.

Eagerly awaiting the next stunt regarding Freeports.
Indeed.
And it is really important to remember that Sunak was promoted to Chancellor after Sajid Javid was forced to stand down because he rejected the control of fiscal policy Boris/ Dominic Cummings insisted upon.
So Sunak is implementing No10 policy and not his own.
And the minute he disagrees, he too will be stabbed in the back.
 

Buster15

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Well that's a new one on me ...his suit!! :)

Although come to think of it I have heard some of the females in my family refer to his appearance... you know you are getting old when you hear of Chancellors being judged on their attire rather than policies!
That beautifully summaries public opinion. As my wife says, he always looks smart...
 

Maticmaker

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We know what the reason was for Brexit but the Brexiters have not yet admitted it.
Thought you might respond to this one Paul... but what have Brexiteers got to admit? They won, and on their terms, on their mind set which wasn't about economics.

The Remainer's lost their way, their campaign a shambles, a bit like one of the clans at the battle of Culloden that reputedly turned up a day late!
 

Paul the Wolf

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Indeed.
And it is really important to remember that Sunak was promoted to Chancellor after Sajid Javid was forced to stand down because he rejected the control of fiscal policy Boris/ Dominic Cummings insisted upon.
So Sunak is implementing No10 policy and not his own.
And the minute he disagrees, he too will be stabbed in the back.
If he is a weak, yes-man chancellor then yet more problems ahead.
 

Berbasbullet

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Thought you might respond to this one Paul... but what have Brexiteers got to admit? They won, and on their terms, on their mind set which wasn't about economics.

The Remainer's lost their way, their campaign a shambles, a bit like one of the clans at the battle of Culloden that reputedly turned up a day late!
Yes they did win, and now the entire country has to suffer, well in!
 

NinjaFletch

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Well that's a new one on me ...his suit!! :)

Although come to think of it I have heard some of the females in my family refer to his appearance... you know you are getting old when you hear of Chancellors being judged on their attire rather than policies!
https://www.theguardian.com/fashion...w-rishi-sunak-uses-clothes-to-build-his-brand

I mean admittedly it is in the fashion section, but if 'hedge fund haute couture' doesn't make you want to bring up your breakfast then you have a stronger constitution than me.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Thought you might respond to this one Paul... but what have Brexiteers got to admit? They won, and on their terms, on their mind set which wasn't about economics.

The Remainer's lost their way, their campaign a shambles, a bit like one of the clans at the battle of Culloden that reputedly turned up a day late!
The remain campaign was a shambles but as we've said before when the Brexiters were moving the goal-posts continuously and all the arguments disproved then it went back to the start again and went round in circles for years and it still continues.

I've still no idea what they've won though, and they don't seem too happy with it either.
So Sunak has the short-term Covid problems and then the real long-term Brexit problems to deal with. Although he'll probably be gone by the next election as life gets much more difficult in two or three years time (or sooner if the trade deal with the EU is not ratified).

The problem Sunak has is that he can't make provision for the Brexit fallout as it would be admitting it was a mistake.
 
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As a Doctor I have always believed that the nurses have by far the hardest job in any medical setup and deserve to be paid more . Having moved here from India it's always amazed me that the pay rises in NHS are so low in general considering you have fixed contracts for most NHS jobs . I am not comfortable with the idea of higher pay rise because we have had a hard year but I also hate this idea of how somehow paying nurses extra is against other things in the country because of expenses . It's a classic government strategy to kind of make people fight each other rather than the government
both sides are failing to ‘read the room’.

the union coming out with a 12.5% demand when the entire country is suffering was seriously misjudged, and will likely cause a backlash at the time when good will towards the NHS is extremely high.
 

Mr Pigeon

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both sides are failing to ‘read the room’.

the union coming out with a 12.5% demand when the entire country is suffering was seriously misjudged, and will likely cause a backlash at the time when good will towards the NHS is extremely high.
Unite are a bit of a wanker when it comes to unions. They usually ask for something astronomical and settle for much less anyway. Also; if you're a part of a different union and they offer to make a joint pay claim, don't. Because as soon as they get a deal on the side they'll leave you holding your dick.
 

Fluctuation0161

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It isn't blaming them for people losing their jobs, but them feeling sorry for themselves that bugs me. Nurses tend to feel like they are hard done by, but you can be in a hell of a lot worse positions. They have a good wage (anyone struggling on 33k per year needs to sort themselves out) and being in the public sector means their jobs are more secure. They are guaranteed to be paid overtime, which isn't the case for private firms. A lot of private firms do not even pay overtime and yet will expect it to be worked. (Whether you do or not is another matter, but the pressure exists).

A lot of private companies are not going to be giving their employees pay rises this year. It is understandable that the government freezes pay rises this year, particularly with the expenditure. I just do not understand the sense of entitlement people have towards a pay rise for doing their job. If they weren't getting paid overtime, it would be understandable. If they want better pay, they have to take things into their own hands as most people do with moving jobs.

Also, this idea of being due a pay rise every year only seems to exist in the public sector. The vast majority of jobs will not provide a pay rise year on year.

Nurses etc. have it much better than they try and make out.
Ah yes, lets all race to the bottom. A classic.

It is obvious from your post you have little idea just how far above and beyond their typical job role nurses have to go. Mainly because the NHS has been underfunded for over a decade. So they are doing the jobs of 2 people.

Funny that some people think health care should be a a priority, you know, as it is essential for life, rather than say Pret selling a few less hummus pots and coffees.
 

Berbasbullet

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Ah yes, lets all race to the bottom. A classic.

It is obvious from your post you have little idea just how far above and beyond their typical job role nurses have to go. Mainly because the NHS has been underfunded for over a decade. So they are doing the jobs of 2 people.

Funny that some people think health care should be a a priority, you know, as it is essential for life, rather than say Pret selling a few less hummus pots and coffees.
Always find the argument ‘but the private sector aren’t getting a pay rise’ baffling. So what? Does it mean the NHS staff deserve less?

My partner is an OT and has just finished working at a field hospital and the amount of times she came home an absolute mess because the stress she/everyone are under was way too much.
 

Ayush_reddevil

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both sides are failing to ‘read the room’.

the union coming out with a 12.5% demand when the entire country is suffering was seriously misjudged, and will likely cause a backlash at the time when good will towards the NHS is extremely high.

Absolutely. I had no idea about the demands and just saw on FB yesterday that it was 12.5 which is just a dumb idea. As I said personally I am against the idea that they need a better raise because of the pandemic but overall I definitely think that they should be paid more .
 

africanspur

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both sides are failing to ‘read the room’.

the union coming out with a 12.5% demand when the entire country is suffering was seriously misjudged, and will likely cause a backlash at the time when good will towards the NHS is extremely high.
I think its misreading the room to assume that public opinion matters a jot in industrial disputes to be honest. The junior doctors found this out to their cost when the government crushed them in contract negotiations a few years ago. Overall public opinion was broadly in support, even when they chose to strike, but it didn't really matter that much in the end.

Public goodwill towards nurses and the NHS is extremely high but, then again, its never particularly low in the UK and I don't think people will go out of their way to do anything to the government about nurses or even really the NHS, as its performance has worsened and worsened over the past decade and Tory governments have carried on getting voted in.

A 1% pay rise for nurses is risible.

Having worked in a few different countries, the population's attitude to healthcare in the UK is honestly quite baffling to me at times.
 
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I think its misreading the room to assume that public opinion matters a jot in industrial disputes to be honest. The junior doctors found this out to their cost when the government crushed them in contract negotiations a few years ago. Overall public opinion was broadly in support, even when they chose to strike, but it didn't really matter that much in the end.

Public goodwill towards nurses and the NHS is extremely high but, then again, its never particularly low in the UK and I don't think people will go out of their way to do anything to the government about nurses or even really the NHS, as its performance has worsened and worsened over the past decade and Tory governments have carried on getting voted in.

A 1% pay rise for nurses is risible.

Having worked in a few different countries, the population's attitude to healthcare in the UK is honestly quite baffling to me at times.
we are in the middle of a pandemic, and an NHS union comes out and demands a 12.5% raise, and threat of a strike. Perception is opportunistic and tone deaf.

let’s wait and see - but that’s going to get a lot of backs up.

we will have circa 5.5% of the population unemployed when furlough ends - I’m not saying the NHS should be happy with a 1% raise - but for a significant proportion of people their opinion will be “be thankful you have a bloody job”.