Is Ole’s football really any better than José & LVG’s?

Shark said:

I don't beluv the end if Mourinho's stint or Ole's current stint is good enough for United. Our managerial appointments since SAF stepped down have been all wrong. Purely looking at our position on the table does not in any shape or form tell the full story about what's been occurring on the pitch for almost the entirely of 2021 and for many long patches beforehand. Do you seriously look at out performances over the past two months or so and think "yeah this bunch under Ole, Carrick and Mckenna going to win a title next season"? Yeah we'll being in two or three or more players but more than likely continue to look far worse than the sum of our parts. Exciting players like Rashford, Martial and Greenwood have all gone completely backwards under these coaches.

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How have you reached the conclusion those players have gone backwards?

This season has been particularly productive for Rashford, despite some injuries. His play has been inconsistent, but he has largely been inconsistent as a player throughout his career, at least moment to moment in games.

Has Martial really gone backwards under the current staff when last season was highly productive? There may be some player responsibility that is a factor. Inconsistency has largely been associated with Martial, if the staff are responsible for his lack of performance then presumably they were wonderful last season. Maybe it's that Martial simply hasn't developed into what we envisaged despite numerous coaches, it seems the simplest explanation.

Greenwood, I really don't think there is enough data. Suggesting he's gone backwards under the management is no more logical than stating Ole was a genius for his performances last year in the way that he handled him and brought him into the team. Probably not reasonable in either case, there may be many reasons for a dip and reasons for his success, e.g. he is a real talent but has had some issues combined with the fact there is no surprise element anymore.

SirScholes said:

Yer but we are talking about style of play, with those players people said his style was terrible

Ole has worse players and is playing better football, slightly

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What a joke. We have Pogba, Matic, McTominay, Fred and, most importantly Bruno Fernandes. Far better than what Jose had.

PoTMS said:

It's so pathetic that posters will be happy with a few seasons of top 4 just because we haven't had that since SAF retired. Apparently, we are the only club in the world where progress happens in baby steps despite spending more than any club and having one of the highest wage bills in the world.

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I just don't get it at all. I feel like banging my head against a wall listening to their logic. Only other thing that gets me this annoyed is the Covid conspiracy theorists.

Abraxas said:

How have you reached the conclusion those players have gone backwards?

This season has been particularly productive for Rashford, despite some injuries. His play has been inconsistent, but he has largely been inconsistent as a player throughout his career, at least moment to moment in games.

Has Martial really gone backwards under the current staff when last season was highly productive? There may be some player responsibility that is a factor. Inconsistency has largely been associated with Martial, if the staff are responsible for his lack of performance then presumably they were wonderful last season. Maybe it's that Martial simply hasn't developed into what we envisaged despite numerous coaches, it seems the simplest explanation.

Greenwood, I really don't think there is enough data. Suggesting he's gone backwards under the management is no more logical than stating Ole was a genius for his performances last year in the way that he handled him and brought him into the team. Probably not reasonable in either case, there may be many reasons for a dip and reasons for his success, e.g. he is a real talent but has had some issues combined with the fact there is no surprise element anymore.

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His productivity has been acceptable but his performances themselves have been lacking in energy and desire. Is he honestly a player you'd say gets people off their seats these days in comparison to a couple of seasons ago?

pocco said:

What a joke. We have Pogba, Matic, McTominay, Fred and, most importantly Bruno Fernandes. Far better than what Jose had.

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Pogba wasn’t as injured matic wasn’t as aged we had Herrera and fellaini who for me are/were better than mctom and Fred

Bruno is the only player but again we had zlatan to play up front.

jackal&hyde said:

It could be true but that team also finished 7th in the league I think and played terrible football. It was a dead end and a season like that would only be seen as a pure positive for a club like Spurs. We were not building anything.

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This is what I mean we are playing better football with a worse midfield

Much much better - not even close enough to be a legit question.

The football is better when we're in form(sounds odd, I know).
In all other aspects it's kinda the same. Added to that, teams find it kind of easy to set up against us as our attack is pretty average.

To me, the lack of a creative player that can take people on is what's hurting us a lot.

People are being disingenuous when they claim Jose was relentlessly negative during his time here. He became very risk averse the longer he was here, but in his first season we did play a fairly attacking brand of football and he brought back a bit of the swagger and cockiness we lost in the Moyes and LvG years. That was obviously aided by the Swedish enigma.

The reality is, Ole and Jose are very similar in terms of style. Both pragmatic managers who are happy for moment of magic to bail them out every game.

LVG was truly mind numbing to watch and the closest I've ever come to not watching games. However, for me, it was clear where he wanted us to end up and I do feel had he gotten one more season from him we may have seen a more exciting brand of football. Still hard to disagree about his dismissal, even though the timing of it was truly atrocious.

Players have regressed under each manager, Martial's form being the most concerning out of all them, for me.

It is obviously not better than the previous 2 in terms of our play on the pitch but he's been good in terms of gathering a squad and getting rid of the deadwood. We definitely need to refine the work on-field. We cannot rely on Ole to play better football because I frankly do not think he has it in him to expect no mistakes on the pitch. He always says if you lose the ball, go back and fight for it which frankly allows the players to make mistakes. Sometimes I feel we play such dull football, I doze off. Example- last night the first half was so boring, I slept off watching and woke up when it was 82nd minute and what's worse we conceded after that. We definitely need a manager who can coach them into playing some football. I know we haven't played a lot of possession football in the past, even under SAF but I think football has changed a lot since then and it is time we started playing possession based football. Ole has definitely done much better than the previous 3 managers in terms of getting a good squad with a better mentality and age together but the football is the same dull one in spite of all the changes. We still need a few players and a manager with more zest in him. Ole is Man United through and through but he's not a manager who can instill qualities or improve players in a particular area except for maybe strikers because he was one.

Shark said:

I don't believe the end if Mourinho's stint or Ole's current stint is good enough for United. Our managerial appointments since SAF stepped down have been all wrong. Purely looking at our position on the table does not in any shape or form tell the full story about what's been occurring on the pitch for almost the entirely of 2021 and for many long patches beforehand. Do you seriously look at our performances over the past two months or so and think "yeah this bunch under Ole, Carrick and Mckenna are going to win a title next season"? Yeah we'll bring in two or three or more players but more than likely continue to look far worse than the sum of our parts. Exciting players like Rashford, Martial and Greenwood have all gone completely backwards under these coaches.

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I don't judge based on two months but on seasons; not just results but like you say, player performance. Rashford has become one of the best players in the league IMO during this time, Greenwood was great last season and even Martial. To think we are the best/ second best team in goal scoring with all the problems and lack of consistency we know, what does it tell you? It tells me that there is a lot more to come from the team that is already performing statistically well. Other players have improved a lot: Fred was done and gone and now he is one of our best, Shaw is probably the best LB in the league after being seen as a finished player

To answer the question I think most teams look exactly like the sum of their parts. Occasionally you can have a team outperforming their "value" but that is only in the short term and usually in a context of better teams going through difficult times (Pochettino finishing 4th in a 2 horse race). I've never known of a manager to outperform the value of its squad over a long time. The best managers IMO are the ones that build the best squads.

tomaldinho1 said:

I would say this is a balanced view if this was his first full season but they reality is we have two strikers who both scored over 20+ goals last season + Cavani + backups of high quality like Greenwood. We have so much more depth than almost everyone and have been relatively lucky with injuries. We have more midfield depth than everyone bar City and same goes for defence and keeper. Ole doesn't have to play a double pivot, that's his choice and - I was saying this to another poster - if this is just his tactics because it's such a weird season and he only needs top four to survive, I'd get it. But I'm not sure it is - this is how he's always setup - he adopted Jose's setup (he even said when his initial great run came he'd not changed anything tactically aside from allowing Pogba more freedom) and he's kept the same structure whilst adding better players.

Ole is not a PE teacher, he's not even that bad a manager and can set us up to counter really well against top teams but he is so evidently not in the elite bracket. That's the issue here, there is a clash between where the club wants to be and who they have trying to get us there. We have good players, we have good depth but our football is awful to watch 8 out of 10 games. Ole's only saving grace is league position which emphasises the question, how is he different to Mou?

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It's all purely speculation at the end of the day. But just because we haven't been playing well lately and have been lacking fluidity up front, doesn't mean that is how Ole wants us to play. It doesn't warrant comparison with two managers who systematically implemented rigid and inflexible systems which were incredibly dull to watch. In reality we're in a rut, struggling for form, and fire-fighting various problems and weaknesses.

Unfortunately, unless your name is Pep Guardiola and you have a blank cheque every season, necessity creates situations you have to adapt to throughout the season. Ours is that we have no striker beyond 34 year old Cavani (unless you're going to try to argue that Martial is a #9 and capable of playing through deep-sitting defences), no RW apart from Greenwood who has been struggling through his second season in senior football, no midfield options besides a relatively uncreative trio of McT, Fred, and Matic (as I said before, Pogba was providing the creative spark in midfield prior to his injury, who knows what the story with VdB is). That's not to mention our defensive frailties and "goalkeeping troubles".

It's easy to cast 100% of the blame on the manager, the coaches, the other faceless backroom staff who the caf have zero knowledge of the innermost workings of, but at the end of the day our squad is patchy at best. We struggled last season with similar problems, and the only real improvement we made to the first XI in the summer was Cavani, who has been in and out. The rest was potential, backup, and "f**k knows" in the case of VdB.

Zen86 said:

It's all purely speculation at the end of the day. But just because we haven't been playing well lately and have been lacking fluidity up front, doesn't mean that is how Ole wants us to play. It doesn't warrant comparison with two managers who systematically implemented rigid and inflexible systems which were incredibly dull to watch. In reality we're in a rut, struggling for form, and fire-fighting various problems and weaknesses.

Unfortunately, unless your name is Pep Guardiola and you have a blank cheque every season, necessity creates situations you have to adapt to throughout the season. Ours is that we have no striker beyond 34 year old Cavani (unless you're going to try to argue that Martial is a #9 and capable of playing through deep-sitting defences), no RW apart from Greenwood who has been struggling through his second season in senior football, no midfield options besides a relatively uncreative trio of McT, Fred, and Matic (as I said before, Pogba was providing the creative spark in midfield prior to his injury, who knows what the story with VdB is). That's not to mention our defensive frailties and "goalkeeping troubles".

It's easy to cast 100% of the blame on the manager, the coaches, the other faceless backroom staff who the caf have zero knowledge of the innermost workings of, but at the end of the day our squad is patchy at best. We struggled last season with similar problems, and the only real improvement we made to the first XI in the summer was Cavani, who has been in and out. The rest was potential, backup, and "f**k knows" in the case of VdB.

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Can you name 5 PL games this season where we've really played well for 90mins and it's not been a counter attacking setup? Leeds, So'ton, Everton...I'm genuinely trying to think here....even the big Newcastle win were were dreadful and then blitzed the last 10mins. Even if there are more than 5 (which is a stupidly low bar) I think you get my point. On our great run of games how many times were we outplayed or behind and have to score in the dying minutes or get a peno, the on the field creation is so minimal. I'm not even saying Ole is 100% to blame, for sure our coaching staff are novices for the most part and some players have definitely been out of form but, let's be honest, we are seeing multiple coaches in the PL get their teams playing well and they have a genuine argument for quality: I really don't think we do. Again, this is basically what Mou does - any criticism of how he plays and the entertainment factor is negated by trophies/league position: we haven't won trophies and we aren't getting higher than 2nd this season.

The real nail in the coffin for me will be if Chelsea catch us - that's a squad with similar depth and similar issues in terms of quality (lots of good players but very few world class players) who lost patience with their former player experiment and went for proven quality (Tuchel isn't even that proven but he's managed in top leagues and built entertaining teams). They were 11 points behind us when Tuchel came in, now it's 4, and the crazy thing is I'm not even sure he's that amazing he is just very switched on tactically, seems pretty dogmatic in how he wants them to play and you can already see them managing games to get the points they need.

Clearly this season is an outlier because of the condensed nature of the season we play twice week every week with no recovery time.

We are the top or close to top scorers in the league which we were never close to under LVG or Jose so you'd have to say yes of course its better.

The problem Ole has is first 11 is incredible but the drop in quality to the squad players is startling and even them you get 1 or 2 injuries in key areas and it really shows, if we had Pogba last night I feel we win that game fairly comfortably or even maybe DvDB could make the difference with breaking runs into the box, Milan were comfortable because Scott and Matic were just staying where they were and neither can get their foot on the ball to progress the play from front to back quick enough

Gavinb33 said:

Clearly this season is an outlier because of the condensed nature of the season we play twice week every week with no recovery time.

We are the top or close to top scorers in the league which we were never close to under LVG or Jose so you'd have to say yes of course its better.

The problem Ole has is first 11 is incredible but the drop in quality to the squad players is startling and even them you get 1 or 2 injuries in key areas and it really shows, if we had Pogba last night I feel we win that game fairly comfortably or even maybe DvDB could make the difference with breaking runs into the box, Milan were comfortable because Scott and Matic were just staying where they were and neither can get their foot on the ball to progress the play from front to back quick enough

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Agreed, I think with pogba we are still in the title hunt

TsuWave said:

How are you quantifying this?

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eh the premier league table

It seems if Ole is not a complete disaster then he's good enough.

"We are inconsistent and dull but LVG and Mourinho were worst".

Why is the bar set against managers who failed here? Yes maybe Ole is better than those two (very debatable) but even then that doesn't mean he's good enough.

It seems as long as he doesn't reach the lowest point from Mourinho then we're on a good path.

SAFMUTD said:

It seems if Ole is not a complete disaster then he's good enough.

"We are inconsistent and dull but LVG and Mourinho were worst".

Why is the bar set against managers who failed here? Yes maybe Ole is better than those two (very debatable) but even then that doesn't mean he's good enough.

It seems as long as he doesn't reach the lowest point from Mourinho then we're on a good path.

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Absolutely spot on.

GBBQ said:

eh the premier league table

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Yeah you're right. 1 point above Leicester with third most expensive squad in the world.

GBBQ said:

eh the premier league table

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You’re using the premier league table as evidence that there aren’t many managers that could improve us and that there aren’t many that would have us second? This makes sense to you?

Nothing will ever be as bad as LVGs football.

Some of our best football came under Mourinho in 16/17 but it also coincided with us having the best first XI we've had since SAF, Ibrahimovic making a big difference.

TsuWave said:

You’re using the premier league table as evidence that there aren’t many managers that could improve us and that there aren’t many that would have us second? This makes sense to you?

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No I asked for what attainable manager would be a guaranteed improvement. I even said I’ve been Ole out at times too. But I don’t see who we can get who would be 100% an improvement. It’s more about the lack of quality managers than thinking Ole is the pinnacle.

Is the title of this thread a joke?

Both of the previously named managers and especially the Portuguese has-been, promoted the destruction of our club. They both employed the same principle: buy the team out of trouble. £90m here, £60m there. There bought plasters to put over the cracks and NOT to build a cohesive body of players, a team made of youth with potential sprinkled with a few diamonds.

LGV remained on his kingly throne while his team struggled against the oppositions. Mourinho's teams employed a style that was mind-numbingly boring: three steps forward and two steps back.

Ole's style is a return to United's/Ferguson's style. He has bought, on the whole, well. And I can see developments. Had the owners and higher management given him at least 50% of the players he wanted (instead of giving him nothing) then Ole's team's progress might have been more advanced.

I believe next season will be better for Ole. The players will be more cohesive. Youth promoted and maybe a couple of players that our manager wants to buy.

UnofficialDevil said:

Yeah you're right. 1 point above Leicester with third most expensive squad in the world.

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So who would guarantee us better. Who could we bring in that wouldn’t be a risk of dropping back down the table. We’ve had 2 CL winning managers having us finish outside the top 4. Who is this mystery manager

Tallis said:

Much much better - not even close enough to be a legit question.

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I don't get opinions like that. Have people actually watched us during Mou's first season here? We played better football than we are now. It wall went down south quickly afterwards but of course it's a legit question from the OP..

Godfather said:

I don't get opinions like that. Have people actually watched us during Mou's first season here? We played better football than we are now. It wall went down south quickly afterwards but of course it's a legit question from the OP..

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Agree

GBBQ said:

So who would guarantee us better. Who could we bring in that wouldn’t be a risk of dropping back down the table. We’ve had 2 CL winning managers having us finish outside the top 4. Who is this mystery manager

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There's more than enough managers out there that could make these players string more than 2 passes together

Godfather said:

There's more than enough managers out there that could make these players string more than 2 passes together

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Give me names of any attainable managers who would, without question, guarantee improvement.

SirScholes said:

Pogba wasn’t as injured matic wasn’t as aged we had Herrera and fellaini who for me are/were better than mctom and Fred

Bruno is the only player but again we had zlatan to play up front.

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You say 'Bruno is the only player' as though it's nothing. We're talking about the most productive player in the PL. Created more chances than anybody. Ridiculous scoring and assist stats. Without checking I imagine he's doing better than Kevin De Bruyne, who is regarded as the best.

Ole has a more mature Rashford, more mature Martial, Edison Cavani and a superb young talent in Greenwood. Plus c. £130-140m spent to improve the defence, which should have, in theory, allowed more freedom for the midfielders. This was an issue discussed for Jose and why he set up our midfield negatively. Jose wanted defenders, didn't get them, Ole did.

It feels like rewriting history to now claim Fellaini was anything decent when he was much maligned at the time and everyone wanted him gone.

GBBQ said:

Give me names of any attainable managers who would, without question, guarantee improvement.

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Potter. Any PL manager getting more from less. I hate this line of thinking. Nobody can prove something that hasn't happened so why change? No team ever gets anywhere with that philosophy.

GBBQ said:

Give me names of any attainable managers who would, without question, guarantee improvement.

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No one would "without question" but if thats the bar then we shouldnt bring any new players either since none of them will guarantee improvement "without question"

SAFMUTD said:

No one would "without question" but if thats the bar then we shouldnt bring any new players either since none of them will guarantee improvement "without question"

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Ok fair enough. Who would have a reasonable chance of improving on our current standing. Check my post history I was calling for Ole out in December. But the fact is he’s delivering to a point and there’s a serious lack of good managers out there so therein lies the problem. Taking a punt on someone may work or it may backfire and we have to restart everything.

It’s easy to change manager when theres a dressing room revolt and we finish 6th. Harder to do it when we’re on course to get CL for 2 seasons in a row and playing better football.

People are silly. The football will come after. You can play great but be bottom of the league. It takes time and its not just Ole btw. Bur the gist seems to be snap your fingers and alls well. Lvgs football was dire. Jose was confusing and not the jose of old. In fact many people spoke of the third season issue he seems to have.

GBBQ said:

So who would guarantee us better. Who could we bring in that wouldn’t be a risk of dropping back down the table. We’ve had 2 CL winning managers having us finish outside the top 4. Who is this mystery manager

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Personally I would go with Erik ten Hag, but its not my job to find the next manager or the next best winger, we have scouts that get paid millions to do that. And as for our two previous CL managers Ole still has yet to accomplish what one of them did which is second with more points that now, and a trophy.
Also having tried two outdated CL managers before doesnt mean Ole is the best available.

pocco said:

You say 'Bruno is the only player' as though it's nothing. We're talking about the most productive player in the PL. Created more chances than anybody. Ridiculous scoring and assist stats. Without checking I imagine he's doing better than Kevin De Bruyne, who is regarded as the best.

Ole has a more mature Rashford, more mature Martial, Edison Cavani and a superb young talent in Greenwood. Plus c. £130-140m spent to improve the defence, which should have, in theory, allowed more freedom for the midfielders. This was an issue discussed for Jose and why he set up our midfield negatively. Jose wanted defenders, didn't get them, Ole did.

It feels like rewriting history to now claim Fellaini was anything decent when he was much maligned at the time and everyone wanted him gone.

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he spent the money on defence correct, but that doesn’t chance the fact that the centre of the pitch is still poor?
just because you now have more freedom it doesn’t change matic being older and slower, Fred not being anything other than a pest for the opposition, and mctom being an average footballer. They could be given the freedom of Manchester and it wouldn’t change a thing. More best talent is pogba and ole has been getting the best out of him recently, however he’s injured again. Mou had injury free pogba with a younger matic and Herrera (who is essentially Fred with end product)

yes he has a more mature rashford (and he’s been more productive) yes he’s got Bruno and he’s being used great in a role that’s allowed him to achieve those stats.

but the heart of the team is poor on the ball and offers no support to those front 3

GBBQ said:

Ok fair enough. Who would have a reasonable chance of improving on our current standing. Check my post history I was calling for Ole out in December. But the fact is he’s delivering to a point and there’s a serious lack of good managers out there so therein lies the problem. Taking a punt on someone may work or it may backfire and we have to restart everything.

It’s easy to change manager when theres a dressing room revolt and we finish 6th. Harder to do it when we’re on course to get CL for 2 seasons in a row and playing better football.

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The obvious one is Nagelsmann. There's not a lack of good managers out there, there are plenty. The problem is we are facing two of the best managers in the world in Pep and Klopp. We dont need "good" we need "great.

Of course it could backfire and we could end up needing another sacking, but we'll never know if we dont try. One thing is for sure, Ole is not going to suddenly develop into a great coach. He's been around enough in his career and here to know what he can offer.

Also you say we are on course to get to CL for 2 seasons in a row as if its a great achievement, I know we havent done it before since Sir Alex but damn thats a low bar. We may be playing "better football" but we are not playing "great football" our peak performances are great but most of our performances are dull. We are really one dimensional and this doesnt seem as a team that lacks 1 or 2 players to click. It seems a bigger problem than that, we are not solid on defense, we dont have a controling midfield and we dont have an offense that can carry the whole team by itself.

None of the three lines is performing at top level, thats why you'll find here people asking for a new CB, a CDM, a RW and a ST. I mean they all want 3-4 more additions, thats a reflection on how the team is performing and thats on Ole. Would bringing Sancho, Haaland, Ndidi, Kounde, etc improve us? definitely. Would it put us on par with City? logic says not with Ole.

Bottom line is the system should be working by now, if could either produce results or not but the intent should be there. Do you really look at this team and say "yeah thats the kind of football and performances we should aspire to"?

SAFMUTD said:

The obvious one is Nagelsmann. There's not a lack of good managers out there, there are plenty. The problem is we are facing two of the best managers in the world in Pep and Klopp. We dont need "good" we need "great.

Of course it could backfire and we could end up needing another sacking, but we'll never know if we dont try. One thing is for sure, Ole is not going to suddenly develop into a great coach. He's been around enough in his career and here to know what he can offer.

Also you say we are on course to get to CL for 2 seasons in a row as if its a great achievement, I know we havent done it before since Sir Alex but damn thats a low bar. We may be playing "better football" but we are not playing "great football" our peak performances are great but most of our performances are dull. We are really one dimensional and this doesnt seem as a team that lacks 1 or 2 players to click. It seems a bigger problem than that, we are not solid on defense, we dont have a controling midfield and we dont have an offense that can carry the whole team by itself.

None of the three lines is performing at top level, thats why you'll find here people asking for a new CB, a CDM, a RW and a ST. I mean they all want 3-4 more additions, thats a reflection on how the team is performing and thats on Ole. Would bringing Sancho, Haaland, Ndidi, Kounde, etc improve us? definitely. Would it put us on par with City? logic says not with Ole.

Bottom line is the system should be working by now, if could either produce results or not but the intent should be there. Do you really look at this team and say "yeah thats the kind of football and performances we should aspire to"?

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We got CL 2 seasons in a row in 2017 and 2018. Just that the first one wasn't through the league but Europe League.

Tallis said:

Much much better - not even close enough to be a legit question.

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Agree 100% - People have short memories. I recommended watching back some footage because some of the football and games in general were absolutely atrocious.

I don't know why people keep saying we are second as if that is a sign of improvement. We are second because Liverpool collapsed, not because we improved to such an extent where we overtook them.

The issue for me is that in the same timespan that Solskjaer has been manager, Rodgers has improved Leicester far more with far less money. Our average points per game this season would lead to a mere 5 point improvement over two and a half-seasons, whilst Leicester average will lead to 20 points.

Our football is incredibly dull to watch unless we have space. We are slow at moving the ball around, our movement is almost non-existent, the team lacks an identity after all this time. We have an occasional game that is good to watch (usually when we have loads of space), but most of the time we are pretty boring to watch. This is evidenced by us making up a quarter of all 0-0 results in the PL this season.

I think sometimes people mistake a moment of brilliance from Fernandes as a good game. No, that is a good moment, not a good game to watch.

Jose?

Try to list me the top 10 of our best football post SAF or even top 20 just to help Jose’s supporter/Ole‘s outer, I bet you will struggle to even think any matches from Jose. The only one I can think of is the city 3-2 game. That’s it. Ole is miles better, he’s more suitable for us than the other two.