Who the hell cares about International games?
"Who cares about cups?"
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
If the players are 'not too disappointed' at going out of a cup, we have a bigggg problem.
The players need to care. They get paid shit loads to care. I want them to care more than I do. Is that too much to ask?
The players need to care. They get paid shit loads to care. I want them to care more than I do. Is that too much to ask?
Roy Keane - "United to win a trophy this year"
Ole - "No i dont"
Ole - "No i dont"
Gratias tibi ago, Cicero.
It's definitely gutting losing today. What saddens me is that it looked like Leicester wanted it more.
I honestly think Top 4 is secured with us being 8 points clear of West Ham who are in 5th.
So the only way I will view this season as acceptable, is if we win the Europa League.
If Ole doesn't care about cups he should at least care about defending our treble.
Apparently our manager.
Which idiot(s) thought it was good idea to schedule internationals in the middle of business end of a very busy club season and during a pandemic where players are in their own bubbles?
Leicester players get to rest for a week, and are all hungry for progress, unlike Everton players, so what do you expect?
I have often said FA is difficult nowadays, because of priority behind CL/Europa and EPL. Had we played against a team equally busy midweek, we might get a fair chance. Again, we could have rested key players against West Ham and Milan, and put FA as our Top.
I have often said FA is difficult nowadays, because of priority behind CL/Europa and EPL. Had we played against a team equally busy midweek, we might get a fair chance. Again, we could have rested key players against West Ham and Milan, and put FA as our Top.
Important: what does "cups don't matter" mean, when we say it? It isn't a literal statement, but rather comparative value judgement that implies following aspects:
1. For a club of our size winning *only* cups is a shame. Which is why LvG won FA Cup and was sacked the next day and Jose won both League cup and Europa League and didn't consider them as great achievements. Winning cups in addition to other achievements (e.g. a treble) is great. Winning just a cup if you suck otherwise is not United level.
2. If winning a cup compromises League standing e.g. you are fighting for title and play first team in a cup game (except for final) then you are not managing the squad properly. Or even: if you are fighting for top4 and endanger Champions League chances for winning a cup - it is wrong call.
3. All that said doing what we did today (we knew Southampton was gonna be our opponent so we got real shot for the final and we blew it against an opponent we could have defeated) is a disgrace. Esp that we are not fighting for the title anymore and top4 is not under huge danger
1. For a club of our size winning *only* cups is a shame. Which is why LvG won FA Cup and was sacked the next day and Jose won both League cup and Europa League and didn't consider them as great achievements. Winning cups in addition to other achievements (e.g. a treble) is great. Winning just a cup if you suck otherwise is not United level.
2. If winning a cup compromises League standing e.g. you are fighting for title and play first team in a cup game (except for final) then you are not managing the squad properly. Or even: if you are fighting for top4 and endanger Champions League chances for winning a cup - it is wrong call.
3. All that said doing what we did today (we knew Southampton was gonna be our opponent so we got real shot for the final and we blew it against an opponent we could have defeated) is a disgrace. Esp that we are not fighting for the title anymore and top4 is not under huge danger
So wait, because the primary target is secured earlier than expected, you're moving the goal posts?
I'm pretty sure ahead of the season, top 4 would have been considered an 'acceptable' season result?
Not to mention that cups are, well, volatile. You can't expect to win them, even if you are favourites for EL.
Who need trophies? league position is where its at.
This club was built on a winning mentality to be the best in what ever competition and what ever level teams of this club took part in from youth to the senior sides. Be that local, national or international level, where would we have been if the club in the fiftys hadsaid stuff the European Cup Competition it does not matter. We are Manchester United we lead the English clubs and against the wishes of the FA., into Europe, we are one of the leading clubs in the FA., and Youth Cup.
Yes I care about winning cups., it builds a winning mentality from the top to the bottom, youth players aspire to be a senior player in a cup winning side.
Would those players that have won cup medals regardless of the competition they were won in give them up so they could say well we finished 2nd 3rd or 4th in the league, I think not.
On another level it brings in additional finances which can only be a good thing plus it is also a helpful argument when trying to bring new players into the club.
Yes I care about winning cups., it builds a winning mentality from the top to the bottom, youth players aspire to be a senior player in a cup winning side.
Would those players that have won cup medals regardless of the competition they were won in give them up so they could say well we finished 2nd 3rd or 4th in the league, I think not.
On another level it brings in additional finances which can only be a good thing plus it is also a helpful argument when trying to bring new players into the club.
That’s how life works though.
In every & any line of work if you complete a task ahead of schedule it is near enough unheard of for your shareholders to tell you to sit on your arse for the remaining period of the proposed timeline; your efficiency would be commended & your resource placed elsewhere.
Having [near enough] secured Top 4 relatively early & knowing who our Qtr Final/Semi Final opposition could be in the UEL it’s actually fair to expect them to win it; this team are bottlers though so I fully expect them to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at some point.
Switching the goalposts was never a defence for LvG or José, I wonder why. . . We’ve criminally underperformed in cup competitions in the OgS tenure.
Top 4 for a club like Utd should be the absolute minimum expectation.
After 3 x semi-final losses last season (3 potential trophies that we missed out on), then the next logical step would be to at least get to a Final.
Seeing as the Europa League is our last chance at silverware this season, then of course I not only want us to get to the Final, but I want us to win it as well.
Top four isnt the fecking target, it's the absolute bare minimum for the manager to keep his job. It's nothing to be proud of or to celebrate, unless your last name is Arnold or Woodward or Glazer.
Ole played Bruno in a Europa match second leg that was 99% secured in s time when PL games were coming thick and fast.
Then he rests him here, in a match that could have taken us to the SF of a cup? I don't get that.
Then he rests him here, in a match that could have taken us to the SF of a cup? I don't get that.
The fact is, the club cares more about Top 4 as it looks far better on their balance sheets in comparison with the poultry prize money you get for winning the EL, FA Cup or the Carabao Cup.
This comes from board room level, and is passed on by the manager to the fans. Spurs, Arsenal and now... United, are prime examples of clubs that live by the rule of top 4 or bust. Top 4 is now lauded when in fact, it's simply a means to qualify for a tournament.
And that's the funny thing, since adopting this policy, those clubs have done the square root of absolutely feck all in the Champions League. There's an obsession to qualify, but zero to win the thing.
When we qualify, we get promised that it'll bring better players to compete on the grandest stage, when in fact, it just allows the Glazers to appear from under their stone and bleed us dry once more. Well, after we get knocked out before the quarter finals of course. Makes you wonder what we are actually celebrating when we qualify, it certainly isn't a chance of winning something.
I wonder if in the future, when we parade our stats as being the most successful club in England, we'll start to include our 2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishes as well. Or if we go the Wenger route, and ask for a top 4 trophy so we can replenish our increasingly outdated trophy cabinet.
Oh well, as Ole says, it doesn't matter. Finishing second is the best barometer of progression. It's not like our accolades are seriously under threat from our biggest rivals or anything. It's all fine. Let's look forward to cheering home a top 4 finish and a few extra million for the Glazers.
This comes from board room level, and is passed on by the manager to the fans. Spurs, Arsenal and now... United, are prime examples of clubs that live by the rule of top 4 or bust. Top 4 is now lauded when in fact, it's simply a means to qualify for a tournament.
And that's the funny thing, since adopting this policy, those clubs have done the square root of absolutely feck all in the Champions League. There's an obsession to qualify, but zero to win the thing.
When we qualify, we get promised that it'll bring better players to compete on the grandest stage, when in fact, it just allows the Glazers to appear from under their stone and bleed us dry once more. Well, after we get knocked out before the quarter finals of course. Makes you wonder what we are actually celebrating when we qualify, it certainly isn't a chance of winning something.
I wonder if in the future, when we parade our stats as being the most successful club in England, we'll start to include our 2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishes as well. Or if we go the Wenger route, and ask for a top 4 trophy so we can replenish our increasingly outdated trophy cabinet.
Oh well, as Ole says, it doesn't matter. Finishing second is the best barometer of progression. It's not like our accolades are seriously under threat from our biggest rivals or anything. It's all fine. Let's look forward to cheering home a top 4 finish and a few extra million for the Glazers.
Trophies are about ego anyway, real progress is being 15 points behind the champions 
Ole is a Glazer puppet. The fact that some of you can’t see this baffles me. We will win nothing under him. Brace yourselves for the Europa exit to Ajax or Roma. Our manager is a specialist in failure. We will finish 2nd or 3rd, miles behind the champions, with no trophies, and redcafe will celebrate it as a successful season. Rinse & repeat, between 2nd-6th next year, no trophies. This is us for as long as he is here. Whilst also having to endure his tumescent cowardly dog shit brand of “football”
Ole is a Glazer puppet. The fact that some of you can’t see this baffles me. We will win nothing under him. Brace yourselves for the Europa exit to Ajax or Roma. Our manager is a specialist in failure. We will finish 2nd or 3rd, miles behind the champions, with no trophies, and redcafe will celebrate it as a successful season. Rinse & repeat, between 2nd-6th next year, no trophies. This is us for as long as he is here. Whilst also having to endure his tumescent cowardly dog shit brand of “football”
It is really strange for sure, My theory is he thought Pogba could do the work now having him back.
Although having them both would be ideal I think.
Our lack of options may be why he did not rest Bruno for Sociedad.
But isn't the fulfilling the 'minimum expectation' exactly what's 'acceptable'?
We're surely strong favourites for the EL based on the teams left and therefore should be winning it. To get knocked out or beat in the final is going to be a low, low point if it does happen.
Given that shortly after the game started we knew our path to the final was simple, through Southampton (as opposed to clashing with City or the very strong Chelsea) we knew this game was likely getting us to the final, not just semifinal. And they threw it away! Against the team that was nothing special and there for taking! Unfecking believable
Hmm, we could end up going round in circles here, so let me put it another way...
> In my opinion, Top 4 and going out of cup competitions fighting (having given your all), is the minimum expectation.
> Getting Top 4 and going out of cup competitions with abysmal performances, is not acceptable, and never will be.
In both scenario's above, the board are happy because of the riches that Champions League money brings.
However, the manner in which we limp out of cup competitions (and it's even more frustrating when there is a trophy on the horizon, at the later knock-out stages), is something that I will never accept as a Utd fan - especially when these limp performances are happening repeatedly at the crucial stages of competitions.
Cups is just ego check for the manager
The Caf is really naive...
Money talks:
Champions League: just qualifying is worth €15m, with each group stage win an additional 2.7m. If you make the knockouts, another 9.5m. Win the whole thing, you get 82m
Europa League, the winner gets €13-15m depending on when you start the competition.
FA Cup, winner takes home £3.4m in total. That’s pathetic compared to the Europe competitions
CarabaoCup is just 100k
We all want to win trophies, but given the packed schedule, if you were going to rest Bruno and others, it had to be for the FA Cup, not Europa League. It was the right call by Ole.
Money talks:
Champions League: just qualifying is worth €15m, with each group stage win an additional 2.7m. If you make the knockouts, another 9.5m. Win the whole thing, you get 82m
Europa League, the winner gets €13-15m depending on when you start the competition.
FA Cup, winner takes home £3.4m in total. That’s pathetic compared to the Europe competitions
CarabaoCup is just 100k
We all want to win trophies, but given the packed schedule, if you were going to rest Bruno and others, it had to be for the FA Cup, not Europa League. It was the right call by Ole.
The thing I find the funniest is many of our fanbase jumped on Poch for saying something similar when he was at Spurs, however due to Ole's legendary status and too much sentimentality he gets away with that trophies for egos quote
Has he gotten away with that? I'm surprised by that, because what actually seems to have happened is that his perfectly reasonable and entirely logical comments have been twisted to the point where another version is now reality, and all the agenda fans who want him out will throw that out there at every available opportunity
Yes. Now more than ever it is vital to secure CL revenue. The Europa League blows the FA Cup out of the water in terms of priorities simply because it offers another route there if the league situation should go wrong
See people talking about CL qualification in a thread about winning trophies. Let's just spend 100s of millions on a team just to boil our goals down to having to choose one or the other
You’re naive and so is Ole if thats the case. How about trying to defend our treble? Doesn’t Ole care about that? City could be well on achieving that this year, our noisy neighbours might achieve what only we have achieved and are so proud of, Ole was part of that, doesn’t he care about defending that? He cares more about how much money each cup brings? Ridiculous.
I see a lot of people talking about how important the top four is due to the revenue, and resting players in this game is the right thing to do because the FA Cup only brings in this amount of money, whereas the Europa brings in a few million more. So what? How do you feel as a fan?
There's a lot of people who seem to be talking from the perspective of the club and bringing out all this data about how much money you earn if you finish in this position over that one, the FA Cup only brings in £3.4m so let's just bin that. It's all a bit clinical and corporate, and while it may be factual, isn't there a bit more to it from a fan's perspective?
Fecking depressing reading some of that.
There's a lot of people who seem to be talking from the perspective of the club and bringing out all this data about how much money you earn if you finish in this position over that one, the FA Cup only brings in £3.4m so let's just bin that. It's all a bit clinical and corporate, and while it may be factual, isn't there a bit more to it from a fan's perspective?
Fecking depressing reading some of that.
How could Ole not care about trying to stop our hated neighbours from winning the treble and care more about how much money the Glazers make. It’s a fecking joke.
Well, I'm not too sure what his mindset was in this game, but I was talking more about how some fans rationalize these types of things. It's all very clinical and almost dispassionate. It's all money and figures, and this Cup only brings in this amount of revenue, but finishing 4th brings in more millions than that, so we should bin that cup off. What they're saying is factual, but...come on. I'm sure the owners think that (in fact, I KNOW they think that), but now you got a lot of fans speaking from that perspective.
Yeah it it is sad fans are not angry. I am furious still.
It is even worse that the club may not care that much.
If City wins 3 or please no all 4 and we win nothing then it is a shockingly bad season.
Ole deserves sack for that by any ambitious club. You do not see Real madrid keep the manager when Barca wins it all etc.
Which is ridiculous. And Ole specially what with being so famous for making that treble happen should be passionate about defending it and trying his best to not let City win it. Just like SAF was passionate about knocking Liverpool of their perch, and not have a grin on his face after losing that match.
Yeah, I mean we all know what these owners are like. They've been awful since the day they took control of this club, and ultimately they're the main issue here. But to see some fans basically argue from the same perspective as the owners is a little dispiriting. You can't disagree with the facts of it; the FA Cup is insignificant in terms of revenue over finishing fourth, but surely there's more to it than that from a fan's perspective.
I am mostly frustrated about the chance of City winning it all and we barely give them a fight for it. I do not want to trust other teams to do that job. If they beat us in the final it hurts, but then we have at least given it a real go.
It is annoying our owners seem to settle to be alright just and get top 4.
I don't think the spending has been that bad, but the lack of ambition thus show.
‘We have a squad that only has a few players that Ole can rely on. It’s really simplistic to think that Ole is waking up in the morning and over coffee and a newspaper says, “ya know, I think I’ll play a 2nd string side in the FA cup...”
You have to realize the coaching staff has a lot of biometric data, upcoming fixtures and injuries to review before making these decisions. You, nor any of us in the Caf, have any idea what led the coaching staff to field a less potent squad. They have risk profiles for each player on the likelihood of injury that takes into account minutes on the pitch, distance covered, etc.
it’s just another excuse for the Ole out mafia to complain and whine. You’ll also complain that he overplayed Rashford, is tactically naive, smiles too much... The list goes on and on.
‘If Ole had the kind of squad options that City and Chelsea have, he would have fielded a very strong side, I have no doubt. But he doesn’t, and he’s putting the long term growth of the squad and club ahead of his own emotions. Rightly so, in my opinion.