A 'systems' player playing in a team without one. What else do you expect?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Nobody brings up Shaktar Donetsk's style of play for Fred, nobody brings up Atalanta for Traore, or Swansea for James.
Yet it is a constant excuse for Donny: "He's just not used to it, Ajax just plays differently." If he's not got a grasp of how we play and what Ole wants, after a whole season, then he mustn't be a very good footballer. Amad seemed comfortable just after a few weeks training. Donny hides and passes side ways and backwards constantly; I guess it's just that Ajax style of play?
This is not an excuse, nor an argument. He is the only player where his former clubs style of play is used to defend him. It does not work, and it is not relevent.
We do, we've gone from counter attacking to a more front-foot style of play. He can't seem to grasp the basics of that, or is overwhelmed by the club. He wouldn't be the first.
Congratulations, you are probably one of the few who think we have a system, that too one that promotes front-foot style of play.
I understand about style of play. I’d be annoyed if we changed our style to fit Haaland, let alone Donny.
However, my point was, this is a player who has played at the highest level in football. At this moment, he is clearly extremely low on confidence (I was annoyed by those regressive passes at Leicester too, but they were uncommon at Ajax, no matter the opponent), and he has been shunted from the position where he played his best games for us. Again, not excuses, but these things happen in football.
We need to give him one more season. There’s also the obvious caveat where he hasn’t adapted to the PL. This has happened to many top players. Thiago atm genuinely looks no better than when O’Shea played in midfield for us. I hope he doesn’t for obvious reasons, but he will probably improve next season. So will Havertz, and so will Donny. I 100% still believe in him. A 23 year old player wouldn’t regress as much as his performances this season says he has. He is a good player.
To be fair, if you've never seen him shine for Ajax or Holland and don't recognize he's low on confidence, writing him off is logical. What he has shown is way off Utd's standard. Other players that needed time to adapt often showed some promise.
He came back from international duty in November after banging in a goal against Italy and Spain and still played scared. I don't expect a different outcome after this break. He'll have to grow a pair over the summer.
This phase of Donny was unavoidable and isn't on Ole.
We will regret selling him for a loss this summer, but if his fee goes towards a big fish, it would be understandable.
Interesting what his position will be at the Dutch NT. Holland needed a goal and brought on Luuk de Jong, Klaassen (who scored), and Gravenberch. I can see Gravenberch and Klaassen climbing over him in the ranks. He needs a resurgence and I have trust he'll be able to do it, something will have to change and he knows.
I have to hold my hand up and concede that Donny is not suited to the style of play Ole wants to see. Not that Ole wouldn't love to see us become capable of carving up parked buses with quick ball movement and movement off the ball, but none of our forwards are either interested or able that kind of football.
Rashford, Martial and Greenwood all want to take 3 or 4 touches on the ball and try to beat their defender and if it's not there then and only then do they look for the pass. By the time that decision is made the only pass to make is a safe pass that leads to nothing, or they may beat the first defender but more often than not the second defender is there to end the potential chance. That's not Donny at all, who I don't think I've ever seen try to take a defender on 1v1.
Unless a new manager is brought in this summer there's really no point in us keeping Donny. Ole has his philosophy and as long as he's manager -- and he does have us in second place -- he has every right and I would say responsibility to force his players to play his brand of football, which at times can be thrilling with moments of genius from Bruno and Marcus.
As an Ajax fan how do you rate him? Say you were to buy him back for 20m, would you think that is a good deal? I didn't watch VDB before he came here so no idea what kind of player he is.
Like I said, I also think we should unfortunately sell Donny this summer as he is the wrong type of player for the style of football we play. We like to play without the ball and Donny is suited to possession based football. And, as we haven't changed that in two and half years I doubt we will next year either.
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it took Fred a year to get used to our football. I wonder why people imagined that can never happen with a Van de beek
Responding both to you and UnofficialDevil, I don’t think we should try to mold Donny into a very different kind of midfielder. Fred’s not a great example in the first place, but more importantly Donny excels at the Ajax brand of football, which can be easily adapted to Barcelona or a top German club. Our brand of football is more athletic, more “Have at it, boys.” and less technical. Unless we send Ole packing, that’s not going to change.
You are not quite getting. Fred IS the best example. We didn't change the type of player Fred was for example. He simply got used to his tea mates play, the league and learned to impose himself on both.
Donny comes from literally the home of football. So it can't be argue he excels at Ajax football and can't operate in anything else.
He is just not yet used to our less sophisticated style. Nor his teamates or the league.
Let him have a proper pre season with us. He will suddenly become very crucial to our play. He doesn't even need a new coach for this to happen. Just time and no long spells out injured.
Donny can benefit a lot by a change of role. He's clearly an intelligent footballer and has good passing and ball playing abilities. It's just that he won't get involved or is just too afraid to make a mistake.
I'd like to see him in a slightly deeper (not DM) role as more of a tempo controller. His one touch passing hasn't and will never suit our style of play.
I'm still not giving up on him. A loan to a midtable PL club might help.
I'd like to see him in a slightly deeper (not DM) role as more of a tempo controller. His one touch passing hasn't and will never suit our style of play.
I'm still not giving up on him. A loan to a midtable PL club might help.
Problem is it's not two three minutes here and there. VDB has been given full match or a half, or 65' and we all saw what he could offer.Rio Ferdinand offers sympathy to Donny van de Beek regarding his Manchester United game time and claims Dutchman would add 'value' and 'intelligence' to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's midfield
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-value-intelligence-Man-Uniteds-midfield.html
Well Rio, what do you know, Caf decided he is a shit player, a "worse Tom Cleverley" how someone put it, and Caf knows best, right? We don't rate players here based on logic.
No one had a ‘’normal’’ pre season this season. If anything, VDB didn’t play football since March due to Eredivisie season stopped. So he was also still off from match fitness despite of had few weeks training before the season started.
Clever player, can finish, good overall technique, positional awareness. Not enough quality on the ball as in long range shooting, creative passing, dribbling.
I wouldnt het him back for 20 million, we have Klaassen, Kudus, Gravenberch, Alvarez en Blind that can play there. I'd rather use it to buy a new keeper/Tagliafico replacement and maybe a second striker now that Brobbey is leaving.
I don’t think it can be credibly argued that Fred has developed into either an attacking force in the final third or a defensive force in our third. Is he less crap now than when he arrived? Yes, but he’s very limited with the ball at his feet and yes has found a role as a harasser, but even then he’s a player opponents are wise to target, as Leicester City proved.
If Fred is the gold standard for Donny’s future at Old Trafford, it’s best for everyone that Donny leaves this summer and find another club which offers him a path for a regular starting role.
I'm getting the impression you are just pushing an agenda. Fred is comfortably twice the player he is now than when he arrived. He has also proved himself alongside Mctominay a key defensive player in our midfield. If you are attempting to push the narrative Fred is useless, I'm sorry to say you are plain deluded and whatever opinion you may have about DVB is thus not worth bothering with.
Wonder if there's anything in the rumours of us trying to use him in a deal with Dortmund
I think we will see more of him next season. He will toughen up over the next few months and make one of the CM slots his own. We will hopefully invest in a CB which will make our defense better and Ole can then play a CM who is not all about work rate and closing down opposition but can play in the other side of the pitch.
The one thing that gives me hope in VDB is Amad.
Amad is obviously younger but also plays in a slot that we dont have a single outstanding performer in this season.
Ole seems to be protective over Amad rather than giving him that free pass to play game after game if he is shows he is good enough.
I'm hoping theres a reason behind this and they both will be seen much more regularly after a pre season and some training in the back scenes.
Amad is obviously younger but also plays in a slot that we dont have a single outstanding performer in this season.
Ole seems to be protective over Amad rather than giving him that free pass to play game after game if he is shows he is good enough.
I'm hoping theres a reason behind this and they both will be seen much more regularly after a pre season and some training in the back scenes.
Common sense.
Problem is your reading comprehension is so low you don't know what "figure of speech" is.
I don't know man, I can understand if he's trying the expansive stuff and they're not coming off, that's rust. If he's playing as a #10 and passing backwards at every opportunity, that's an entirely different problem. If he's doing that inside an empty stadium, imagine how far he'll drop when he plays a back pass that in front of a packed OT and they let out a loud moan.
I’ve been wondering about that too. It’s not such a bad idea for both clubs, as it’s pretty clear by now that Ole has no use for Donny, which is a shame but very hard to deny.
Fred and his Shakhtar experience was brought up all the time when he was struggling, Amad made 1 Serie A & 1 CL appearance and James played for a Championship club. That's just an awful set of comparisons.
Let's look at it logically with top players. Which clubs have had possession based systems for decades; Ajax & Barca. Let's look at the players who have moved between the clubs.
Ajax --> possession orientated teams:
- De Jong & Dest. Both starters at Barca, both doing well. De Jong is averaging a goal or assist every other game and Dest is the starting RWB. Let's see how Ziyech does with Tuchel (another possession obsessed coach) because he was rubbish under Lampard (and I think, in fairness, injured) but seems to be getting more and more game time now.
The only way to get over lack of confidence is to play through it. Being frozen out only worsens the issue, as we've seen.
For Sancho or Haaland? Would he get a game there? I'm not too well versed on their midfield options these days.
He's had more than ' 2 minutes here,3 minutes there ' though, hasn't he.
He's shown practically nothing since he's been here. Been an absolute ghost the majority of time when he has featured.
He's shown practically nothing since he's been here. Been an absolute ghost the majority of time when he has featured.
I take this point but how many opportunities should he be given before we cut our losses? Also, I wonder whether the more he's given a stage on which to showcase his mediocrity, the fewer willing clubs we'll find on whom we can palm him off.
I hear he's been pretty awful for the Netherlands. So if it's mainly about style of play (which frankly is not a great excuse, it is however somewhat of an explanation) then it would also have to account for that. It seems to be the case that the loss of confidence and mental approach to the game is the primary reason for loss of overall form otherwise you'd have to formulate a very tenuous argument for why he cannot impact national games.
Now, the style of play issue may be one of the things that preceded the loss of confidence, but it's fairly clear we need to address the latter first or we've completely lost the player and no amount of technical drills is going to redeem his play on the pitch. He's playing like the weight of the world is on his shoulders so we have to find some method of releasing him, whether it's with a sports psychologist, or really digging into his issues with him, I am unsure.
That aside, an unrelated issue, but I'm always slightly confused when non-Dutch posters make sweeping statements on his play for Ajax. He might have been good in the CL but how many actually watched him regularly in a manner in which our scouts ought to?As we have seen many times, statistics in Holland are not always a guarantee, and the CL is a very small sample. There is an interesting possibility that we simply messed up on our assessment and that it is nothing to do with unlocking his potential, maybe he is simply not good enough at this level and then he's lost confidence as a result meaning he can't even reach a baseline kind of acceptable performance.
Now, the style of play issue may be one of the things that preceded the loss of confidence, but it's fairly clear we need to address the latter first or we've completely lost the player and no amount of technical drills is going to redeem his play on the pitch. He's playing like the weight of the world is on his shoulders so we have to find some method of releasing him, whether it's with a sports psychologist, or really digging into his issues with him, I am unsure.
That aside, an unrelated issue, but I'm always slightly confused when non-Dutch posters make sweeping statements on his play for Ajax. He might have been good in the CL but how many actually watched him regularly in a manner in which our scouts ought to?As we have seen many times, statistics in Holland are not always a guarantee, and the CL is a very small sample. There is an interesting possibility that we simply messed up on our assessment and that it is nothing to do with unlocking his potential, maybe he is simply not good enough at this level and then he's lost confidence as a result meaning he can't even reach a baseline kind of acceptable performance.
If he did well during training he would play much more. He is a better passer than McFred but he lacks pace and strength to displace one of them. He is similar to Daley Blind in that respect.
At Ajax he had De Jong, Ziyech and Tadic taking on most of the creative responsibilities. What he is undeniably good at is being a wall for players like that to bounce the ball off and continue moves, then making runs to try to get on the end of what they create.
Not many teams in the world with the type of set up and players to allow a guy with that type of game to play that type of role, and nothing he has shown suggest he is worth building a squad and team around to mimic that same system.
Not many teams in the world with the type of set up and players to allow a guy with that type of game to play that type of role, and nothing he has shown suggest he is worth building a squad and team around to mimic that same system.
They’re all fair points but it’s one of the reasons I find the idea of VDB as Bruno’s alternative frustrating.
They would seem to compliment each other well and it’s been an absolute rarity to see them in the same side together. It’s always one or the other.
He has played 31 mins off the bench in Netherlands last 3 matches featuring 2 times and not coming on at all in 1, having barely been involved for United.
Its not surprising that he isnt full of confidence and putting in glowing performances for his country in the current situation. If he did that would be the sign of a truly great player because thats very hard to do.
He's in a poor moment in his career at a club where he isnt given many chances and he doesnt look confident when he does play.
The only thing we can do with him is give him more oppertunities and be patient. We've done plenty of that with lesser players like Lindelof and Fred who started off terrible and improved to at least be starters. The alternative is send him out on loan next season and watch him do a Lingard, then give him a chance when he comes back
Neither of them have both though.
Fred isnt strong, falls to the floor often in a challenge while McTominay is strong and stronger than VDB. McTominay isnt particularly quick and I'm not sure hes faster than DVB, Fred is certainly quick.
Pogba is arguably stronger and maybe even quicker than both. If not, combined he's certainly more pace + power than either one.
And DVB is stronger than Fred, maybe faster than McTominay. So why wouldnt that be enough?
Pogba is the only other one of our CMs/DMs that will do this
Mostly agreed.
However, I'm not sure I've seen much to support the notion Lindelof and Fred are lesser players. They had poor starts and have improved, that is true. They are not world beating players, that also seems fairly evident. However they are useful to the team and I'm not willing to give VDB credit for perceived quality, he has to show he can also become a useful player for us. Or maybe he'll go elsewhere and do it.
Also, what's to say he'll do a Lingard on loan? He could just as easily go into his shell, maybe he's a player that struggles to adapt to new surroundings. Some personality types struggle with this kind of upheaval. We may compound the problem by doing that if he fails at a lesser team, and we'd have to find a very suitable team if some of the reasoning here is correct. It's not going to be trivial to "do a Lingard" I fear.
You make some good points, but I'm curious as to where you heard that and how recently.
Donny was good as a sub vs Latvia yesterday. Didn't play in the previous game, but he did score the deciding and only goal vs both Italy and Spain in the previous international break.
He's definitely had poor performances before that (though nothing exceptionally bad), but he's been suprisingly good lately for the boys in orange.
VDB has played 14 EL and 29 CL matches at Ajax. Not all against great opposition or as a starter, but enough to make a decent sample size.
Good post though, just wanted to raise a ? on these 2 points.
They also arent 23 and in their first season at the club. Thats the point. Lindelof had the worst start I've seen from a United player and Fred didn't look up to standard in his first season either. Now they're doing better than they did in their first season. I fully expect VDB will do the same and do better in the future and having seen these other players do that, I cant see why our fans wouldnt foresee the same
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