NBA 2020-2021

stepic said:

the insecurity is clearly from the backlash he got from the warriors move. even though the precedent for that was done years earlier with the big 3 in miami.

maybe not worse, but seems like a pretty non issue spat to me.

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Well using your own logic, LeBron didn't join a superteam. He made one, same as Durant? And the precedent was set before, Heat weren't the first super team, not even close.

Easy to say joining the Warriors made Durant so insecure, why isn't Harden the same now? Or LeBron when he had Wade and Bosh? Or Garnett when he had Pierce, Allen and Rondo? Or Jordan when he got Rodman and had Pippen?

There's precedent for not acting like a cock when joining a superteam but KD followed his own path.

And if someone started talking about my family the way KD did, I'd have met him wherever he asked. Rapaport is annoying, but he doesn't come out of that looking bad, that's for Durant to have all to himself.

Won't say he's more insecure/sensitive but LeBron up there whining about wanting his damn respect after winning a title was petty and reeked of insecurity. Bloke is already labeled by just about anyone as one of 3-5 greatest players ever, arguably the best ever. Durant does strike me as a very emotional and insecure person.

Bubz27 said:

Well using your own logic, LeBron didn't join a superteam. He made one, same as Durant? And the precedent was set before, Heat weren't the first super team, not even close.

Easy to say joining the Warriors made Durant so insecure, why isn't Harden the same now? Or LeBron when he had Wade and Bosh? Or Garnett when he had Pierce, Allen and Rondo? Or Jordan when he got Rodman and had Pippen?

There's precedent for not acting like a cock when joining a superteam but KD followed his own path.

And if someone started talking about my family the way KD did, I'd have met him wherever he asked. Rapaport is annoying, but he doesn't come out of that looking bad, that's for Durant to have all to himself.

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you think the backlash he received from his move to the Warriors has had no effect on Durant? i don't recall any so called insecurities prior to that move. at the end of the day he was the best player on that Warriors team.

stepic said:

you think the backlash he received from his move to the Warriors has had no effect on Durant? i don't recall any so called insecurities prior to that move. at the end of the day he was the best player on that Warriors team.

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Did I say that? I said that's easy to say and gave examples of other people in very similar scenarios who aren't as outwardly insecure as Durant. And it isn't perceived insecurity. He is insecure.

So what if he was the best player on that team? What's that got to do with his issues? Steph won a title without KD with Klay and Dray. KD hasn't won without Steph and he's had Russ, Harden and Ibaka on the same team.

It's kind of strange though that all the chatter after he left the Warriors was about how he wanted to win it on his own team and now he has ended up on another superteam which is winning game after game without him

stepic said:

the insecurity is clearly from the backlash he got from the warriors move. even though the precedent for that was done years earlier with the big 3 in miami.

maybe not worse, but seems like a pretty non issue spat to me.

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There are many differences between those situations. It was not a precedent really. KD is an insecure child who deserves the hate.

ThierryHenry said:

There’s a real joy in seeing Giannis and Thanasis on the court together at the same time. Any chance Thanasis could become a proper player for the Bucks?

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Absolutely amazing to then see the three Antetokounmpos all playing together in LA last night. Given their background, I honestly think this is one of the best stories in modern sports. Would love to see Giannis win a ring in Milwaukee, seems by far the most deserving of the NBA superstars.

Aaron Gordon looks great in Denver. Watching their game vs. the Clippets from yesterday and he’s been very strong on defence vs. Kawhi.

They might not hold on here (up seven but Jokic is having an off night), but I think they could be my favourites coming out the West. Jokic is probably the MVP, Gordon looks a perfect fit, and Murray and Porter Jr are in great form. If LeBron and AD can’t get back to their level from last year I’d fancy Denver above anyone else.

ThierryHenry said:

Aaron Gordon looks great in Denver. Watching their game vs. the Clippets from yesterday and he’s been very strong on defence vs. Kawhi.

They might not hold on here (up seven but Jokic is having an off night), but I think they could be my favourites coming out the West. Jokic is probably the MVP, Gordon looks a perfect fit, and Murray and Porter Jr are in great form. If LeBron and AD can’t get back to their level from last year I’d fancy Denver above anyone else.

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Gordon was always going to be a good fit there. I think he'd have been a really great fit at Portland too but I understood why they went for Powell instead as Covington is probably better off at 4 anyway.

Where Nuggets are going to struggle is guarding guards and 3s. In theory Gordon can guard bigger wings but they are going to struggle so much against smaller agile guards like Dame or CJ. As unreliable as Harris was for them offensively, they'd not have won the Clippers series last season without him, or even the Jazz series for that matter. That should actually not matter against Lakers (though they will not be able to guard LeBron or AD either) or Clippers but will be an issue against Portland, Dallas, Utah etc.

It would be absolutely brutal for Utah if they get the 1 seed and Lakers/ Nuggets is the 4/5 match-up. I’m hoping the Clippers fall back to so at least one of those sides move above them.

MackRobinson said:

I should have said the first ever Nets fan outside of BK. I live in Brooklyn right now there is a buzz, but too bad nobody can go to games.

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I used to go to Barclays to see Memphis play (Brooklyn still sucked so I got good seats all the time). May have to switch over to MSG for this once fans are let back in.

Casual fan question: Was Jordan's maximum peak from 90 to 93 or the ''im back'' years ?

I figured out the best way to develop a long lasting interest in the sport was to go through MJ's highlights.

Sorry if this isn't the right thread for that. Couldn't find another one.

I'd say 91-93 was his best.

Damn, the Warriors are bad without Steph. The Raptors have lost 13 of their last 14 yet are up by 20 on the Dubs and it's only half time.

charlton66 said:

Damn, the Warriors are bad without Steph. The Raptors have lost 13 of their last 14 yet are up by 20 on the Dubs and it's only half time.

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The key here is that the refs haven't allowed the Warriors to bully the Raptors, and Gary Trent Jr.'s stepped up his game recently, too. The same thing happened against the Nuggets.

Its 30 now.

40

50. Damn!

charlton66 said:

40

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It's the sort of backlash I expected from the Raptors after the past few close losses. My only fear now is that the Warriors players will look to hurt and injure our players in the 4th quarter.

Now, the injuries start to pile up. VanVleet's out with a left hip flexor strain.

mazhar13 said:

It's the sort of backlash I expected from the Raptors after the past few close losses. My only fear now is that the Warriors players will look to hurt and injure our players in the 4th quarter.

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I wouldn't worry too much. Based on tonight's performance they couldn't hit anything.

charlton66 said:

I wouldn't worry too much. Based on tonight's performance they couldn't hit anything.

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I don't know if you're watching the match, but Damion Lee intentionally stepped on Gary Trent's heel on a breakaway and tried to hurt him. Fortunately, Trent didn't suffer from a knee injury at that moment.

mazhar13 said:

I don't know if you're watching the match, but Damion Lee intentionally stepped on Gary Trent's heel on a breakaway and tried to hurt him. Fortunately, Trent didn't suffer from a knee injury at that moment.

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Got it on, but got to admit was only half watching by that point. This performance is every bit as bad (possibly worse) than anything I can remember from last year. 46-14 third quarter.

charlton66 said:

Got it on, but got to admit was only half watching by that point. This performance is every bit as bad (possibly worse) than anything I can remember from last year.

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I feel you. I've seen my fair share of diabolical Raptors performances this season, so I'm just happy that we're playing ruthlessly instead of feeling sorry for ourselves.

60

Ah, no wonder the Warriors are struggling tonight; this is their 2nd game in a back-to-back!

mazhar13 said:

Ah, no wonder the Warriors are struggling tonight; this is their 2nd game in a back-to-back!

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Yeah, that must be it.

charlton66 said:

Yeah, that must be it.

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The Raptors have had to deal with a ton of back-to-backs themselves, and their back-to-back games record has been terrible.

Anyways, this was a record-breaking night for the Raptors.

mazhar13 said:

The Raptors have had to deal with a ton of back-to-backs themselves, and their back-to-back games record has been terrible.

Anyways, this was a record-breaking night for the Raptors.

Spoiler: Records broken

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If you'd have really gone for it, you had a shot at the all time largest margin of victory (68). When you hit 60 with over 8 minutes to go I really thought it was on. Sad, very sad.

Luke1995 said:

Casual fan question: Was Jordan's maximum peak from 90 to 93 or the ''im back'' years ?

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90-93 definitely. These are the numbers from Suns 93' final series for example.

45.7 minutes per game, scoring 41.0 points, 8.5 rebounds and 6.3 assists per game on 50.2 FG%

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Jim Beam said:

90-93 definitely. These are the numbers from Suns 93' final series for example.

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I'm sorry but no chance. 1987-1989 was his absolute peak and he continued at a strong level until his retirement in 1993.

But in 1988, he was in nearly unplayable. He was the best offensive player on the planet by a considerable margin while being the best defensive player on the planet at the same time. He should have been the DPOY in 1987 as well. The next season, he won the scoring title and DPOY in the same season (only time in NBA history it's ever been done and it will likely never be repeated), while winning the MVP and dragging a poor Chicago team to 50 wins.

In 1989, he averaged 32.5 ppg, 8 rpg, 8 apg and 3 spg on 53 percents fg at a time when defense was actually played. When both Chicago point guards got injured, he moved into PG and immediately out up 7 straight triple doubles (for context, Magic Johnson's career high was 4 consecutive triple doubles) and 10 in 11 games.

In the late 80s, he wasn't just the best player on the planet, at his peak; he was the most dominant any basketball player and arguably any athlete has ever been. I sometimes think about Messi's 2012 but I don't think it comes close to that version of Jordan.

Ladron de redcafe said:

I'm sorry but no chance. 1987-1989 was his absolute peak and he continued at a strong level until his retirement in 1993.

But in 1988, he was in nearly unplayable. He was the best offensive player on the planet by a considerable margin while being the best defensive player on the planet at the same time. He should have been the DPOY in 1987 as well. The next season, he won the scoring title and DPOY in the same season (only time in NBA history it's ever been done and it will likely never be repeated), while winning the MVP and dragging a poor Chicago team to 50 wins.

In 1989, he averaged 32.5 ppg, 8 rpg, 8 apg and 3 spg on 53 percents fg at a time when defense was actually played. When both Chicago point guards got injured, he moved into PG and immediately out up 7 straight triple doubles (for context, Magic Johnson's career high was 4 consecutive triple doubles) and 10 in 11 games.

In the late 80s, he wasn't just the best player on the planet, at his peak; he was the most dominant any basketball player and arguably any athlete has ever been. I sometimes think about Messi's 2012 but I don't think it comes close to that version of Jordan.

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Well, I don't mind people pointing at his period in the 80's as his peak and whichever period you take it was definitely before the return.

He was certainly in his athletic peak in the late 80's and those numbers are brilliant. The difference for me is that he was pretty much one man attack in the 80's while 90 - 93 version was more intelligent and more willing to involve others. I prefer that version as it merged his athletic abilities with brilliant perimeter and post-up game which he used so efficiently as he got older. If you could describe his game in that time with one word it would be effortless. Here he looks like he is in training and it was a series breaking game.


In any case, pointing at late 80's as his career peak is a valid one and stats will even back you on that one. Matter of what you prefer I guess.

Jim Beam said:

Well, I don't mind people pointing at his period in the 80's as his peak and whichever period you take it was definitely before the return.

He was certainly in his athletic peak in the late 80's and those numbers are brilliant. The difference for me is that he was pretty much one man attack in the 80's while 90 - 93 version was more intelligent and more willing to involve others. I prefer that version as it merged his athletic abilities with brilliant perimeter and post-up game which he used so efficiently as he got older. If you could describe his game in that time with one word it would be effortless. Here he looks like he is in training and it was a series breaking game.


In any case, pointing at late 80's as his career peak is a valid one and stats will even back you on that one. Matter of what you prefer I guess.

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I can't disagree with that. By 1992, he has become the best midrange shooter in NBA history (he shot something close to 51.5% on midrange shots, which is mind bogglingly high) and had developed his fadeaway even further by 1993.

The series against the Suns in 1993 was as great as any finals performance, especially given how good that Suns team was. Paul Westphal's famous interview after game 4 in which he dejectedly told reporters "I never said we could stop him (Jordan). We can't stop him. Nobody can stop him", while starting into the abyss epitomised how helpless other NBA teams felt when facing him.

I agree with you regarding which version was more dominant, if we are comparing the first 3 peat and second 3 peat Jordan. By his second run, he wasn't the same Jordan. He was still the best player on the planet and still led the Bulls to a three-peat as the undisputed number 1 option, but his advanced stats weren't otherworldly anymore.

stepic said:

you think the backlash he received from his move to the Warriors has had no effect on Durant? i don't recall any so called insecurities prior to that move. at the end of the day he was the best player on that Warriors team.

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I really wanted to let this go because I visited and revisited this topic numerous times when Durant was with the Dubs, but saying KD was the best player on the Warriors as a blanket statement is just not true. The facts actually support the opposite.

https://drbobsports.com/warriors-most-valuable-player-curry-vs-durant/

"I cringe every time I hear an analyst say that Kevin Durant is the best player on the Golden State Warriors. There is simply no data to back that claim up. In fact, the analysis strongly points towards Stephen Curry being significantly more valuable than Durant. Those that support Durant in this debate might use his two Finals MVP awards, based on a small sample size of 9 games, or statistics such as scoring, rebounding, blocks, etc., but how the team performs with each player in and out of the game is ultimately more telling than a player’s statistics.


In the two seasons with Durant Golden State is 26-3 straight up and with an average scoring margin of +13.4 points in games that Curry played in and Durant did not play (8-0 SU this past season) while the Warriors are 23-10 with an average scoring margin of just +3.7 points when Durant has played and Curry did not play (21-10 SU this past season)."

NOTE: This article only covers Durant's first two seasons, it actually got worse. In the final 33 games where Durant played for the Warriors with Steph playing and Durant out the Dubs were 32-1.



Now I've got to admit, if the two were playing one on one against each other, I'd take KD every time but NBA basketball is just not like that and for the Dubs the facts support Steph as the Warriors best player during the KD years.

Ladron de redcafe said:

I can't disagree with that. By 1992, he has become the best midrange shooter in NBA history (he shot something close to 51.5% on midrange shots, which is mind bogglingly high) and had developed his fadeaway even further by 1993.

The series against the Suns in 1993 was as great as any finals performance, especially given how good that Suns team was. Paul Westphal's famous interview after game 4 in which he dejectedly told reporters "I never said we could stop him (Jordan). We can't stop him. Nobody can stop him", while starting into the abyss epitomised how helpless other NBA teams felt when facing him.

I agree with you regarding which version was more dominant, if we are comparing the first 3 peat and second 3 peat Jordan. By his second run, he wasn't the same Jordan. He was still the best player on the planet and still led the Bulls to a three-peat as the undisputed number 1 option, but his advanced stats weren't otherworldly anymore.

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If you go by his stats you are definitely correct but I would argue that 1995-96 Jordan was "peak Jordan." Athletically, as has already been pointed out he was past his best, but cerebrally he was head and shoulders above what he had been earlier in his career. The 1995-96 Bulls team was possibly the greatest team of all time and of course Jordan was its leader. The difference was that by this time in his career he had figured out that it really was a team game and to be really great you have to get other players involved. I don't think there's any way 80s Jordan passes to Steve Kerr in the '97 finals, maybe not even early 90s Jordan, but after his first retirement he had definitely figured out the team ethos and being the best that you can be involves others.

To me, a player at his peak doesn't just encompass athletic skills, it is the total package and I believe Jordan in 95-96 was that package.

Anyone predict at the start of the season that the top 2 teams in the West would be Utah and Phoenix?

Yeah, me neither

reelworld said:

Anyone predict at the start of the season that the top 2 teams in the West would be Utah and Phoenix?

Yeah, me neither

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It's the just the regular season but nonetheless, both teams are playing good basketball at the moment.

durant is better than curry

Eboue said:

durant is better than curry

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Shouldn't you be watching Arsenal

Eboue said:

durant is better than curry

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One on one I'd agree.