Blair would have sent air strikes by now.
Sensible, non-hysterical ESL and CL discussion only
- Thread starter rcoobc
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
That would've been the big problem with the 2024 CL format, and it's going to be the problem with the Super League too.
I've tried to imagine the 36 team Champions League as it would have been this season. I've ignored the stupid wild-card system proposed by UEFA here and instead given an extra spot to Germany (Champions League winners), France (Champions League Runners Up), England (highest co-efficient), and Spain (Europa League winners). I think that could be a good system to decide extra spots; with the league that produces each years EL/CL winner getting an extra spot.
This is what a 36 team Champions League could have looked like this year. Currently, I don't know that it's clear how the "who-plays-who" in the 10 stage group stage is decided. I've read either that; each tier plays two games against the other 5 tiers (10 games) and none against their own, or that it's going to be a complicated even system with no benefits to being a small or big team.
But if it was the former, where the big clubs *don't* play against each other, that leaves the best most interesting fixtures in the system involving the best tier 2 teams against the tier 1 teams
PSG vs (2 of) Bayern/Madrid/Barcelona/Juventus/Man City
Man Utd vs (2 of) Bayern/Madrid/Barcelona/Juventus/Atletico Madrid
Liverpool vs (2 of) Bayern/Madrid/Barcelona/Juventus/Atletico Madrid
Dortmund vs (2 of) Madrid/Barcelona/Juventus/Atletico Madrid/Man City
8 decent fixtures there, but that is 8 fixtures out of 180 "League" stage matches. That is 8 good games amongst a lot of dross.
However, if instead of 6 tiers of 6 to decide the fixtures, we had 4 tiers of 9. And everyone played 2 fixtures against tiers that are not there own and 4 fixtures against tiers that are their own, it would be much more interesting.
Bayern vs (4 of) Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Juventus, Man City, PSG, Man Utd
Real Madrid vs (4 of) Bayern, Juventus, Man City, PSG, Man Utd
Barcelona vs (4 of) Bayern, Juventus, Man City, PSG, Man Utd
Atletico Madrid vs (4 of) Bayern, Juventus, Man City, PSG, Man Utd
Juventus vs (4 of) Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Man City, PSG, Man Utd
Man City vs (4 of) Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, PSG,
PSG vs (4 of) Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Juventus, Man City, Man Utd
Utd vs (4 of) Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Juventus PSG
I've actually counted those matches twice there because of how I've written it, but there are 16 great matches there, and that doesn't even include matches involving Liverpool, Dortmund, Chelsea, etc
But by doing the "you play 4 matches against your own tier" that puts the biggest club at a disadvantage. The smaller clubs only have to play 2 of Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Juventus, Man City, PSG, Man Utd, Sevilla - whilst the biggest clubs have to play 4 of them!
This makes the league a lot closer. The smaller clubs are handed an effective points bonus as they don't meet the bigger ones as often (this is exactly how the NFL works).
Then if you did top 10, 12 or 16 teams goes through to the knockouts - rather than 24! I think you've got the makings of a really decent tournament there.
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Like Rooney said we need to see the facts but if these clubs are constantly in the same super league then I can’t see much transfer activity between the clubs.
Thing is if this does happen as a United fan I’d be excited to always be in the competition, I’m just not sure what it does to the league, if you know you’re always in this competition and the leagues gone then you just rest players because the league positions don’t matter.
I wouldn’t mind a super league though but just not with guaranteed places.
I’d prefer it’s similar to tennis where you get 2-3 wild card entries a year like ivanisavic.
Thing is if this does happen as a United fan I’d be excited to always be in the competition, I’m just not sure what it does to the league, if you know you’re always in this competition and the leagues gone then you just rest players because the league positions don’t matter.
I wouldn’t mind a super league though but just not with guaranteed places.
I’d prefer it’s similar to tennis where you get 2-3 wild card entries a year like ivanisavic.
Champions League is fine. More fun would be replace the group stage with more knockout rounds. Get rid of the Europa League and get them all involved.
New proposal is terrible but everyone with a head knows that so discussion is pointless.
New proposal is terrible but everyone with a head knows that so discussion is pointless.
Also - having just 20 teams is going to make it really boring long term.
Well of course in the grand scheme of things! Haha, thought you meant people who closely follow the NBA.
Money can t appear out of nowhere
Either the ESL TV income is the same as the CL and it s just big teams taking more of the pie and that’s a shame
Or they expect a bigger TV deal due to more exciting games. Part of it would be because of new fans, new markets (asia, us etc) but the most of it would be even more expensive TV price for us. And that s a shame too
That’s really just greed and they don’t even try to lie about it
Either the ESL TV income is the same as the CL and it s just big teams taking more of the pie and that’s a shame
Or they expect a bigger TV deal due to more exciting games. Part of it would be because of new fans, new markets (asia, us etc) but the most of it would be even more expensive TV price for us. And that s a shame too
That’s really just greed and they don’t even try to lie about it
Some food for thought:
1. Corruption exists at all levels of football: there needs to be a party willing to offer a bribe for there to be one on the receiving end.
With this the SL solution to "corruption" appears to be to police themselves instead of having any independent body at all?
UEFA, for all its flaws, at least has some democratic mechanisms in place (ie. elections).
If you thought reforming UEFA or FIFA was near impossible, I'd love to know how you'd hope to ever reform the SL as long as it has an unaccountable founding "class" that makes its own rules.
About the licensing income:
UEFA redistributes its earnings to clubs that qualified to their competitions.
Here, income is guaranteed for the founding clubs as they cannot not qualify (ie. be relegated) regardless of their actual performances on the pitch.
So instead of renegotiating their pieces of the community pie and live with the risk, they've baked their own exclusive pie and effectively blown up the existing one, leaving everyone else below them scurrying for leftovers.
2. I guess merit and fairness just go out the window because they affect the bottom line...
From the horse's mouth:
3. Right, two super clubs being in financial trouble could damage the CL, as opposed to 12 super clubs seceding from UEFA and the ECA and utterly undermining the concept of the CL in its entirety?
4. I'm confused: UEFA were the ones who proposed and pushed through FFP in the first place (which was opposed by many people already), the main reason they haven't been able to use it more effectively is due to loopholes and limitations of the law. Furthermore, one such "state-owned" team is set to become a founding member of the SL, and there's literally nothing proposed that would bar any other from joining eventually.
It's difficult to say anything with any degree of certainty, because loads of stuff is still up in the air.
Even the format isn't completely defined yet: https://thesuperleague.com/#who_we_are
But it appears very much like a footballing "aristocracy", only not in the figurative sense.
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The reality of the football business: money is very important. In so many cases, with all the spending including all the huge salaries, it prevents clubs from going bust. Clubs need to look after their own future.
In the past 3 decades, a LOT of money has started to circulate in European club football between investors, corporates, worldwide fans, players, agents etc etc. This is a re-organization of power based on how that money flows. All the football boards and institutions just do not have the same power they wielded once compared to the clubs.
In effect, in the long run these super clubs will become big entertainment houses (aren't they already?) rather than grass root football clubs. There will be temporary void for developing and nurturing local talent, which eventually will be filled by another stakeholder/structure by design or accident. Football is too big to disappear.
These entertainment houses also need their stream of talent and will continue to pay up for them. The current structure of middlemen will be replaced by a new structure of middlemen. Blatter and Platini will not have a say in where the next big football extravaganza happens, but it will the Perezs and the Woodwards.
It is a huge emotional rollercoaster for the fans, but we'll still watch some form of football and it'll all roll-up to this circus eventually. If this Superleague doesn't materialize today a variation of this will. It's all a bit inevitable eventually.
In effect, in the long run these super clubs will become big entertainment houses (aren't they already?) rather than grass root football clubs. There will be temporary void for developing and nurturing local talent, which eventually will be filled by another stakeholder/structure by design or accident. Football is too big to disappear.
These entertainment houses also need their stream of talent and will continue to pay up for them. The current structure of middlemen will be replaced by a new structure of middlemen. Blatter and Platini will not have a say in where the next big football extravaganza happens, but it will the Perezs and the Woodwards.
It is a huge emotional rollercoaster for the fans, but we'll still watch some form of football and it'll all roll-up to this circus eventually. If this Superleague doesn't materialize today a variation of this will. It's all a bit inevitable eventually.
Of course they do. Them having more control just isn't necessarily a good thing. We all know of the corruption issues surrounding the governing bodies, it just comes with the money. But for all their flaws, at the core UEFA and FIFA are exactly that: governing bodies. Ideally independent regulatory entities. How anyone can believe that completely unregulated backroom deals between Perez, the Sheikh, Abramovic, Ed et al are really gong to be beneficial to the sport is beyond me. It's just a cartel, there's a reason most countries have laws against these kinds of alliances.
As it should be, that's what competition is about. Poor Glazers want predictable cashflows? Go into real estate for all I care, football is based on competition and therefore can be unpredictable. Hint: Otherwise no one would watch it in the first place.
Again, as they should be after years of mismanagement. Why should those clubs be immune to what befell Nottingham Forest, Red Star Belgrade or HSV. All European Cup Winners in their time. Some fade away, some join the fray, it's the way of the world.
By giving the financial advantage to 12 clubs instead
In regards to FIFA/UEFA I'm inclined to take a "the devil you know" stance. For all their flaws, they at least never showed as much open contempt for their fanbase as these new lot do. And as I said above, I have my doubts that under this new government, corruption will be a no-go. Due to the unregulated nature of the whole endeavour, even more possibilities for such shenanigans opened up imo. The money just ends in someone elses pocket.
Disclaimer: not here to critizise your post, as overall we seem to agree anyway, just some thoughts on your thoughts
Its a no go if they have to leave domestic football but my question is how do the other clubs negate the fact England will be another super league in its own right, especially if one of the invites goes to a 7th side. People are lamenting the fall of English football bit there will be some serious talent coming to those shores with tv deals to boot and on prime time Asian tv.
Id rather 6 City type clubs than 1. If England can slightly manipulate this, there wont be calls for a CL since the rest of English football will be in one. It could be a huge boom for sacrificing 1 other English team getting CL once every 20 years.
Id rather 6 City type clubs than 1. If England can slightly manipulate this, there wont be calls for a CL since the rest of English football will be in one. It could be a huge boom for sacrificing 1 other English team getting CL once every 20 years.
The glazers are helping to drive this. The whole moral high ground on our part rings hollow now.
I'm all for it as long as the club is still part of domestic tournaments and it respects the match going fans .
I don't care CL to be honest. I want my team to play the best teams in the world and I want to see it every year. The last time we played Real was 10 years back. Seriously though, life is too short to wait 10 years. The game is all entertainment and I want to watch it very often.
Yes, agree the way its done is not right. There should be an option for other clubs who want to join and may be split the revenue based on the viewership rather than a constant number being put into owners pocket.
I don't care CL to be honest. I want my team to play the best teams in the world and I want to see it every year. The last time we played Real was 10 years back. Seriously though, life is too short to wait 10 years. The game is all entertainment and I want to watch it very often.
Yes, agree the way its done is not right. There should be an option for other clubs who want to join and may be split the revenue based on the viewership rather than a constant number being put into owners pocket.
Simon Jordan has a sensible view on it and I mostly agree with it.
Don't agree with this at all.
I watch the NHL. Below that is the AHL, then ECHL. There is plenty of hockey below that as well.
Don't know about the other major US sports as I don't watch them.
Its a strange experience for you all in England. The league itself is enticing. The thought of Man palying Barca or Real mid week instead of Burnley, Fulham or West Brom would be appointment T.V. I would have to be honest and say I'll be watching. Being an N.F.L. fan as well, playing the same teams each year doesn't get boring. I would still like for Man to play in the P.L.
I am against the proposed European Super League, because it completely eradicates competition and excitement.
Just have a look at the current model of the Premier League and why it is so exciting:
- any team can win the league
- any team can be relegated
- any team can finish in the Top 4 and qualify for the prestigious Champions League competition
Now have a look at the European Super League:
- founding members guaranteed to be in the competition every year (regardless of domestic league position)
- outside of the founding members, it is invitation only
Knock-on effect for Premier League:
- elite 6 will only be competetive until they realistically don't think they can win the league; at which point (provided they have more than 40 points on the board for survival) they will just tail off and focus on the Super League
- the 14 also-ran clubs will battle to finish as high up the league table as possible, in the hope of playing in the 2nd rate Champions League, or the 3rd rate Europa League
- long term effect, the 14 also-ran clubs' best players will eventually join the elite 6, as that is the only way they can play in the new number 1 competition, because there is no qualifying entry to it.
Reading the above, the new European Super League is an absolute monopoly for the elite 6
The rich get richer (elite 6)
The other rich (14 also-rans) become poor.
Just have a look at the current model of the Premier League and why it is so exciting:
- any team can win the league
- any team can be relegated
- any team can finish in the Top 4 and qualify for the prestigious Champions League competition
Now have a look at the European Super League:
- founding members guaranteed to be in the competition every year (regardless of domestic league position)
- outside of the founding members, it is invitation only
Knock-on effect for Premier League:
- elite 6 will only be competetive until they realistically don't think they can win the league; at which point (provided they have more than 40 points on the board for survival) they will just tail off and focus on the Super League
- the 14 also-ran clubs will battle to finish as high up the league table as possible, in the hope of playing in the 2nd rate Champions League, or the 3rd rate Europa League
- long term effect, the 14 also-ran clubs' best players will eventually join the elite 6, as that is the only way they can play in the new number 1 competition, because there is no qualifying entry to it.
Reading the above, the new European Super League is an absolute monopoly for the elite 6
The rich get richer (elite 6)
The other rich (14 also-rans) become poor.
Argument for:
1. Corruption from FIFA/UEFA over the years is essentially the root of all these. It’s about time to say big feck off to those feckers
2. Big clubs have been carrying small clubs financially over the years with those TV money, it’s about time for big clubs to take back control on their own fortune
3. No one wants to watch more games of Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd vs the likes of some minor European teams anyway, if that’s the future direction of UEFA CL
4. If it works for American sports, Ruby and NBA etc, why can’t it works for football too?
5. It may appeal to the worldwide fan base, which is the reason making football become such huge sports/business
6. When we have PL 30 years ago, it’s already foreseeable we will have super league too in future. It’s inevitable we will have it at some point in future anyway, if not this time.
7. Let’s face it, the COVID is going to destroy many big football clubs anyway if the situation persist any longer. Super league may be the only solution to at least save all big clubs from going into administration.
8. If these founding clubs are to set their own rules on players transfer, perhaps toxic agents like Raiola would no longer be able to take large chunk of pie as before?
Argument against:
1. Tradition and fundamentals of football competition will be gone. The very reason why we all love football competition on its current format will be gone too.
2. Football competition should be based on its merits, but not on its popularity/money.
3 Big clubs will get richer, smaller clubs will become poorer.
4. It will kill CL, and devalue PL etc, and the history and prestige for those competitions we have been watching since our childhood would be gone, which is sad.
5. In future those 15 founding clubs would be untouchable. This will create unhealthily competition among football world as a whole.
6. There will be probably be no bright future of those others clubs who are not being invited, which is against principle of fair game.
7. During those transitional years, we all have to watch all those big teams fighting for a plastic trophy, which would be unbearable to watch. Also, the excitement of watching teams fighting against relegation zone will be gone too.
9. Assume there will be 15 founding clubs whose place are cemented forever, and 5 invited clubs whose place could changed every year or so. Since the selection is based on popularity/money rather than merits, there could be potentially “closed door corruption” involved in future, as it’s all about money game.
1. Corruption from FIFA/UEFA over the years is essentially the root of all these. It’s about time to say big feck off to those feckers
2. Big clubs have been carrying small clubs financially over the years with those TV money, it’s about time for big clubs to take back control on their own fortune
3. No one wants to watch more games of Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd vs the likes of some minor European teams anyway, if that’s the future direction of UEFA CL
4. If it works for American sports, Ruby and NBA etc, why can’t it works for football too?
5. It may appeal to the worldwide fan base, which is the reason making football become such huge sports/business
6. When we have PL 30 years ago, it’s already foreseeable we will have super league too in future. It’s inevitable we will have it at some point in future anyway, if not this time.
7. Let’s face it, the COVID is going to destroy many big football clubs anyway if the situation persist any longer. Super league may be the only solution to at least save all big clubs from going into administration.
8. If these founding clubs are to set their own rules on players transfer, perhaps toxic agents like Raiola would no longer be able to take large chunk of pie as before?
Argument against:
1. Tradition and fundamentals of football competition will be gone. The very reason why we all love football competition on its current format will be gone too.
2. Football competition should be based on its merits, but not on its popularity/money.
3 Big clubs will get richer, smaller clubs will become poorer.
4. It will kill CL, and devalue PL etc, and the history and prestige for those competitions we have been watching since our childhood would be gone, which is sad.
5. In future those 15 founding clubs would be untouchable. This will create unhealthily competition among football world as a whole.
6. There will be probably be no bright future of those others clubs who are not being invited, which is against principle of fair game.
7. During those transitional years, we all have to watch all those big teams fighting for a plastic trophy, which would be unbearable to watch. Also, the excitement of watching teams fighting against relegation zone will be gone too.
9. Assume there will be 15 founding clubs whose place are cemented forever, and 5 invited clubs whose place could changed every year or so. Since the selection is based on popularity/money rather than merits, there could be potentially “closed door corruption” involved in future, as it’s all about money game.
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I'm ok with Super league if it is allowed to take place in the summer and the CL with current system exists. Consuct Super League once every 2 years due to Euros and FIFA world cup schedule. It's a win win situation for the owners and the domestic league associations.
The problem is for players whether they can play extra matches and they won't have vacation time.
The problem is for players whether they can play extra matches and they won't have vacation time.
You can replace one supermarket with another. You can’t just choose another club though. That’s the exact point.
I gotta ask the people who are against it.
What do they mean they don't care about the fans? Whose fans? The fans of the non-elite clubs? It's a rather bizarre argument.
Trying to understand the rationale.
What do they mean they don't care about the fans? Whose fans? The fans of the non-elite clubs? It's a rather bizarre argument.
Trying to understand the rationale.
The problem for me is: How are the young players going to be developed? If the Superleague is locked, what incentive is there to win? In NBA, the final goal of the worst teams is the draft - now, if the other teams all oppose this competition, what does the last placed team in it gain? What if after 10 years only 6 teams stand out and win all the leagues - do they create a Super Super League?
I’m concerned with these huge cash injections that have been bandied about that Sancho, Grealish, Haaland, etc will be snapped up by the ESL clubs. They’ll continue to do that which will further weaken teams that are not in the ESL.
I have a feeling they won’t be allowed to transfer from FIFA related clubs but let’s see.
Our lives are over
Sorry if this question has been asked but here it comes. Providing that ESL club are banner from UEFA/FIFA games. Will the playwlwr be able to terminate their contracts? I'm sure UEFA/FIFA would allow this but would the case stand in a court?
Absolutely. It will turn the ESL into the NFL and the rest of football into feeder clubs for the ESL teams like college football in the US. So basically what it essentially is, just more codified and formal.
All fans. Surely the sport actively favouring 15 clubs and as part of its rules giving them preferential treatment regardless of future performances, damages the sport in general, which isn't good for people who love the sport? Also, why are fans of the non elite clubs not important?
The "fans" argument is simple. Respect for the spirit of the sports Vs Cash. It can't all be about the money.
The likes of Sancho, Halaand etc cannot be afforded by other clubs anyway so it won't change that. But of course it actively seeks to widen the gap which is damaging for the sport. The CL itself is a club joining which makes you more powerful, but the difference of course is that anybody can make it in based on performances and the rules dont favour a select few regardless of performance. It's an absurd idea and so disappointing that we are among the clubs who beleive in this.
An ESL with no safe 15. Is basically a CL
It's all about money. Stop bringing UEFA is corrupt etc while we're doing exactly the same thing. Just more money. Since it's ours.
It's all about money. Stop bringing UEFA is corrupt etc while we're doing exactly the same thing. Just more money. Since it's ours.
Yes, I wouldn't really care if the CL was replaced. The exclusivity thing is the problem. Maybe fan backlash will force them to change it.
They won’t, they need to be smashed down. It was the whole point for them to do that breakaway.
You cannot compare how United/Liverpool/Spurs/Arsenal are run to UEFA, they are not corrupt. Don't confuse being ruthless for corruption, we might not like what they are doing but they aren't the same thing.
Chelsea/City I can't comment on...
Am I missing something with regards to the CL? In the past few years, CL has produced some of the most exciting football around. Suddenly, everyone has a problem with CL being boring or corrupt.
Also, I genuinely don't buy the random argument thrown around that UEFA and FIFA are also corrupt hence ESL is all well and good. The issue that is being discussed and debated is whether ESL as a concept will add value without being damaging to the fairness of what competitive sport is. You can shoot the messenger, but the message will still stand.
As a club, we have been extremely poor in the last decade or so and hence, we have been struggling to get CL football. Similar cases for Arsenal, Spurs and AC Milan. To think that we can trample the competition just because we're the bigger brand name is a repulsive thought process.
I believe I can say this for most of the people here. We fell in love with the sport first and then Manchester United. If we do end up in the ESL, we wouldn't be supporting United, we'll be supporting Glazers and Woodward. FFS, even Fergie is so vocally against it. Not sure if we need any other motivation.
Also, I genuinely don't buy the random argument thrown around that UEFA and FIFA are also corrupt hence ESL is all well and good. The issue that is being discussed and debated is whether ESL as a concept will add value without being damaging to the fairness of what competitive sport is. You can shoot the messenger, but the message will still stand.
As a club, we have been extremely poor in the last decade or so and hence, we have been struggling to get CL football. Similar cases for Arsenal, Spurs and AC Milan. To think that we can trample the competition just because we're the bigger brand name is a repulsive thought process.
I believe I can say this for most of the people here. We fell in love with the sport first and then Manchester United. If we do end up in the ESL, we wouldn't be supporting United, we'll be supporting Glazers and Woodward. FFS, even Fergie is so vocally against it. Not sure if we need any other motivation.
Not yet but when they're in control of this league.. what level of depravity will they drop to?Just look at Ac Milans new owner. Utter vindictive scum.
Champions league viewership is down and so will revenues be, since viewership is what drives revenues. In terms of viewership its doesnt get watched enough until the knockouts. The dilution of the competition (by adding weak teams) over the years has caused this.
I agree with the rest of your comments though.
There is money at all levels.
Agreed, also some of the so called Super Teams are not really Elite at all,
- Arsenal
- Tottenham
- AC Milan
AC Milan are a historical giant but they have been shit for the past 10 years (I think if anyone is to be invited it should be Napoli perhaps).
Spurs only recently become a team that might be in top four contention, and they didn't qualify to CL last year.
Arsenal didn't qualify to CL since 2016, so nothing is "Elite" about that.
Manchester United were in a rebuild since Fergie left and were in a shit seasons for many times.
They have simply done it by which clubs draw the most fan viewership