Julian Nagelsmann | Sacked and replaced by Tuchel

Sweet Square

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Eh?

One of the main reasons why the ESL abomination - happily - went to shit, was that Bayern weren't on board.
I'm doubtful as this being of the main reasons.

They obviously aren't "too small" for anything - they're one of the very biggest football clubs in the world in terms of...anything you can think of, really: historical significance, fan base, revenue AND current level.
They would struggle to over time with the likes of Real, Barca or the oil clubs like City/PSG for players in a super league imo. This isn't to say they aren't a big club but well they aren't real madrid or a gulf state.
 

JPRouve

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Not that I disagree with what you’re saying, but signing those players from Dortmund (for whatever reason they left), did weaken Dortmund in much the same way signing Upamecano & Nagelsmann will “probably” weaken RB. I suppose the reason these players are leaving the other clubs are a bigger reason for discussion. Can’t blame Bayern for using that to their advantage.
It weakened Dortmund but it's not Bayern actively weakening Dortmund, Dortmund were going to be weakened no matter what due to a lack of money. Bayern happens to be one of the wealthiest clubs and sometimes players will chose them but it's dishonest to put it as "Bayern weakened its competition" because the insinuation is that the opposition wouldn't be weakened without Bayern which is blatantly wrong. It's also dishonest to have such a narrative when Dortmund routinely purchase players from its direct competitors, their team is full of them which by the way includes Hummels.
 

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It's the one league I can think of where the top team has been able to buy from literally every team without too much hardship.
Players going back and forth between Inter, Milan, and Juventus is reasonably common in Italy. Well, common is perhaps the wrong word but it certainly happens more than transfers between United and Liverpool.
 

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It weakened Dortmund but it's not Bayern actively weakening Dortmund, Dortmund were going to be weakened no matter what due to a lack of money. Bayern happens to be one of the wealthiest clubs and sometimes players will chose them but it's dishonest to put it as "Bayern weakened its competition" because the insinuation is that the opposition wouldn't be weakened without Bayern which is blatantly wrong. It's also dishonest to have such a narrative when Dortmund routinely purchase players from its direct competitors, their team is full of them which by the way includes Hummels.
Instances are definitely exaggerated but paying a release clause does actively weaken a team/rival - but as you’ve mentioned, those instances are actually few and far between (Gotze, Upamecano the 2 I can think of). But alas, the bigger issue is that Bayern seems the only one with any sort of purchasing power over there & that’s definitely a recipe for disaster for the rest of the league.
 

JPRouve

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I'm doubtful as this being of the main reasons.


They would struggle to over time with the likes of Real, Barca or the oil clubs like City/PSG for players in a super league imo. This isn't to say they aren't a big club but well they aren't real madrid or a gulf state.
Why? Bayern commercial revenues are slightly higher than Barcelona's and Madrid's. If anything the Spanish clubs should think twice about putting themselves in a competition where they get the same amount of TV revenue than Bayern, they would essentially allow Bayern to close the small gap between them based on Deloitte's last reports.
 

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Bayerns current rivals(Dortmund,Leipzig) just happen to operate in the wrong parts of germany to really be able to grow to Bayerns size.
And the teams that might able to challenge them are/were run badly.Hamburg and Berlin being the ones with the most potential just because of location.Those 2 could be really scary to Bayern if they found sound management.
Frankfurt has been well run the last couple of years,they are slowly discovering their potential and i hope they make the Champiosleague.If they can become regulars,they`d be in a position to easily overtake Dortmund.
Actually, the Ruhrpott clubs are the teams operating in the areas with the highest population density in Germany. The region is one of the most populated in the world even. Half the size of the Greater Tokyo Area (~14.000 to ~7.000 sqaure kilometres), between one third and one fourth of its population (~37.000.000 to ~10.000.000 inhabitants).
 

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They would struggle able to compete over time with the likes of Real, Barca or the oil clubs like City/PSG for players in a super league imo.
It's all hypothetical (thankfully) in terms of an actual Super League - but I find this opinion odd.

Bayern haven't struggled to compete with the clubs you mention over the past few years - quite to the contrary. Why would they struggle to compete with them in a Super League context? If we take the proposed ESL concept as a starting point, that idea actually included some kind of warped "FFP" concept which would not have favoured the potential spending power of the state owned clubs.

Bayern, as it stands, have access to the wealth of talents produced by the German "pyramid" - which is extremely significant and gives them an edge right there compared to clubs that have to contend with multiple rivals on roughly the same level.
 

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Will he still be managing RBL this season? I understand it with players, but with managers in the same league, won't that be a huge conflict of interest?
 

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Instances are definitely exaggerated but paying a release clause does actively weaken a team/rival - but as you’ve mentioned, those instances are actually few and far between (Gotze, Upamecano the 2 I can think of). But alas, the bigger issue is that Bayern seems the only one with any sort of purchasing power over there & that’s definitely a recipe for disaster for the rest of the league.
What's more harming is Bayern's habit of twisting the player's head so that he's willing to let his contract run out. They really profited from Bosman. Goretzka, Lewandowski, Nübel, Rode and Rudy are examples of that. And they tried it with even more players like Vidal, Werner and Havertz. Try to force the other team to sell cheap or get the player on a free, utilizing their economic strength like a chip leadership in poker.
 

JPRouve

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Will he still be managing RBL this season? I understand it with players, but with managers in the same league, won't that be a huge conflict of interest?
Unless we are talking about someone without moral compass and honour, no. It's interesting to see this kind of questions in football because it happens all the time in Rugby at the highest level and I'm yet to see a player or a manager not give everything.
 

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What's more harming is Bayern's habit of twisting the player's head so that he's willing to let his contract run out. They really profited from Bosman. Goretzka, Lewandowski, Nübel, Rode and Rudy are examples of that. And they tried it with even more players like Vidal, Werner and Havertz. Try to force the other team to sell cheap or get the player on a free, utilizing their economic strength like a chip leadership in poker.
That’s a good point as well, and probably extends to Bayern’s hold over the entire BL and not just “competitors”.
 

hanovercigars

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Just a thought. Could Bayern's dominance be the by-product of the 50+1 rule? Does the rule limit some of the potential commercial activity, loans of a club needed to rapidly expand and take on Bayern. If it does I would not be surprised that club boards in the Bundesliga see selling their star players to Bayern as the only way to generate decent returns in a short period of time.
 

JPRouve

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What's more harming is Bayern's habit of twisting the player's head so that he's willing to let his contract run out. They really profited from Bosman. Goretzka, Lewandowski, Nübel, Rode and Rudy are examples of that. And they tried it with even more players like Vidal, Werner and Havertz. Try to force the other team to sell cheap or get the player on a free, utilizing their economic strength like a chip leadership in poker.
That, I agree with. There isn't a lot of clubs that can convince players to not extend, if a player knows that Bayern is after him. Isn't that what essentially happened with Sané?

But I think that it's also linked to the fact that Bayern leaders target certain players and do not deviate, the players know that Bayern are serious and will offer them a contract.
 

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Why? Bayern commercial revenues are slightly higher than Barcelona's and Madrid's.
Is it ?

From what I've seen Bayren where behind Barca and just in front of Madrid.

Why? Bayern commercial revenues are slightly higher than Barcelona's and Madrid's. If anything the Spanish clubs should think twice about putting themselves in a competition where they get the same amount of TV revenue than Bayern, they would essentially allow Bayern to close the small gap between them based on Deloitte's last reports.
Wasn't there a thing with the super league where the clubs got a certain amount of games to broadcast themselves ?

According to The Times, part of the Super League proposal would see the teams being handed more control over the broadcasting rights of their games, with four per season being shown on the clubs’ own digital platforms around the world.
https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/what-does-footballs-european-super-league-mean-for-tv-and-gaming
One of the reasons why the Glazers loved the idea(They must insane enough to believe the 1 billion fans shtick). I would have guessed over time the rights to game with increase. Which maybe thats fine for Bayren.
 

Amarsdd

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Unless we are talking about someone without moral compass and honour, no. It's interesting to see this kind of questions in football because it happens all the time in Rugby at the highest level and I'm yet to see a player or a manager not give everything.
umm conflict of interest is not about morality or honour of the people involved. The appearance itself is kinda bad given RBL is Bayern's biggest challenger remaining in the league for this season.
 

JPRouve

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Is it ?

From what I've seen Bayren where behind Barca and just in front of Madrid.


Wasn't there a thing with the super league where the clubs got a certain amount of games to broadcast themselves ?



One of the reasons why the Glazers loved the idea(They must insane enough to believe the 1 billion fans shtick). I would have guessed over time the rights to game with increase. Which maybe thats fine for Bayren.
No, in terms of commercial revenue Bayern are above both, the difference is that Barcelona and Madrid have slightly higher TV revenues and significantly higher gates revenue. And Bayern having more broadcasting rights is a benefit for them because unlike PL and La Liga clubs, they have more room for global growth outside of the Bundesliga context.

Bayern are the one club with maybe PSG that the other clubs shouldn't want in a Super League, you are giving them a new platform that is closer to the PL/La Liga than what they currently have, you give them access to comparatively better TV deals and also increase their visibility which in the case of Bayern would be a daft thing to do because it increase their commercial value which is already high.

Now regarding commercial revenues, according to Deloitte last year Barcelona generated 340.2m€, Real Madrid generated 359.6m€ and Bayern generated 360.5m€. Perez should think about his master plan a bit more thoroughly and not invite Bayern.
 

Sweet Square

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And Bayern having more broadcasting rights is a benefit for them because unlike PL and La Liga clubs, they have more room for global growth outside of the Bundesliga context.
Isn't this just the case of for everyone. It's was a ''benefit'' for all the clubs involved.


Now regarding commercial revenues, according to Deloitte last year Barcelona generated 340.2m€, Real Madrid generated 359.6m€ and Bayern generated 360.5m€. Perez should think about his master plan a bit more thoroughly and not invite Bayern.
Link ?
 

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Can any Bundesliga fans remind me again why there was so much hate for RBL from the Bayern fans? I thought they were supposed to be BL's own version of Man City.
What's more harming is Bayern's habit of twisting the player's head so that he's willing to let his contract run out. They really profited from Bosman. Goretzka, Lewandowski, Nübel, Rode and Rudy are examples of that. And they tried it with even more players like Vidal, Werner and Havertz. Try to force the other team to sell cheap or get the player on a free, utilizing their economic strength like a chip leadership in poker.
Yeah, where would we be without Nübel, Rode and Rudy...

You listed two valid examples, Goretzka and Lewandowski but in case of Lewandowski we wanted to buy him earlier and Dortmund simply refused, not to mention Real Madrid would have been the alternative. It's not like Lewandowski only did that for us.
In regards to Goretzka... a lot of people didn't even rate him that highly at the time and thought it was kind of a useless transfer. Besides that let's not forget how Goretzka ended up at Schalke in the first place.
Also we didn't try it with any of the other players you mention there. Vidal had the option between us and Juventus and Leverkusen simply refused to sell to us, a free transfer was never on the cards. Werner? I don't even know where you get that from. It's obvious that the club never wanted him and Havertz was also never in the cards for free. At best we hoped to wait another year for a more reasonable transfer fee, it's not like any other top club except Chelsea would have paid so much.
Still it's always weird that people actually criticise the club for good business sense and not constantly spending insane money and obviously that also means choosing a good time to get a player.

Any argument here basically boils down to: "Why isn't Bayern actively doing a worse job in regards to X".

This is even funnier considering how much flak our leadership constantly gets. Let's be honest here, without Bayern in the league, it would be Dortmund picking up these players (mostly) but without the ability to actually keep them in the league (Dortmund is not going to pay 20m/Euro a year to Neuer or Lewandowski).

Having said that I should mention that even we lost players like Kroos, Thiago and now Alaba (also Guardiola). It's not like we are magically protected from other top clubs. The only reason it doesn't happen more often is due to the fact how successful we are in the last 10+ years, the club had to earn it and it wasn't some kind of inevitable thing.
It is now 15 years ago that we lost Ballack to Chelsea and people considered that the next logical "step up" at the time, comparable to how a Sancho transfer would be viewed. At the time we were on the brink to become like Arsenal (today), a solid 1B club but not good enough to challenge for the CL.
Between 06/07 and 11/12 we "only" won 2 out of 6(!) championships and people were genuinly asking if Dortmund had pulled ahead of us. That might sound ridiculous now but these discussions happened.
If you had told someone in the year 2012 that we would go on to win the next 9(!) championships as well as 2 CLs you would have been declared insane. Bayern always had a huge financial advantage and often the (by far) best squad and yet we never dominated in such a way, not even the generation of Beckenbauer, G. Müller etc.
Consistency at such a high level, year for year, is hard no matter how good you are on paper or how big your advantage is, usually sooner or later you slip up but that simply hasn't happened with us so far (in Italy it will now happen with Juventus and in France PSG might slip up, also look at how teams like Chelsea or Liverpool collapsed in the PL after winning big titles).
 
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JPRouve

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Isn't this just the case of for everyone. It's was a ''benefit'' for all the clubs involved.



Link ?
I told you where it was, I'm not putting the link of a PDF. You google Deloitte money league and you will find it.
 

JPRouve

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Isn't this just the case of for everyone. It's was a ''benefit'' for all the clubs involved.
No, it's not the case for everyone. Not everyone has the same room for growth, some are already in highly visible leagues.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Could Bayern's dominance be the by-product of the 50+1 rule?
Well, said rule means that a pure City style takeover (and subsequent rise) has not been possible.

It's interesting to speculate what might have happened if - say - the Saudis had taken over a German club and done something very similar to what Red Bull did with Leipzig: work within the 50 + 1 framework, but essentially undermine the idea behind it (within the rules).

In other words, a Red Bull thing but cranked up to eleven: the "members" controlling the club being limited to a select group of individuals, and so forth - but with significantly more money involved.
 

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Actually, the Ruhrpott clubs are the teams operating in the areas with the highest population density in Germany. The region is one of the most populated in the world even. Half the size of the Greater Tokyo Area (~14.000 to ~7.000 sqaure kilometres), between one third and one fourth of its population (~37.000.000 to ~10.000.000 inhabitants).
But Dortmund can`t clame the Ruhrpott-region as theirs since there are to many clubs having to share that (sadly quite impoverished) region,while Frankfurt is basically alone in the RheinMain-Region for example.
This isn`t about population density anyway, it`s about financial potential in those regions.There is no financial potential in the City of Dortmund,while Frankfurt is the german finance-centre and biggest air-travel hub,Hamburg is the main Cargo-hub and Berlin our biggest Metropol...plus no-one ever said "let`s go visit Dortmund" unless you are there to watch BVB.
When your Club is the only reason to visit then you are not a relevant City.
 

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I know you're getting a lot of flak for this, but you're spot on. There is one thing being efficient, and there is another thing of constantly stirring up chaos at your 'rivals'. If you're almost twice as rich as the next clubs, and those next clubs are constantly in a flux in terms of league positions, I wonder if it's even appropriate to deem the other clubs to be their rivals. It's like calling Monaco a rival of PSG! When you add in the under the table shady tactics, I wonder why so many people have any kind of respect for them. Sure they're super efficient (which is great to admire), but their management are also the biggest c*nts in BL by a big margin.

Bayern's dominance in the last decade has been largely bankrolled by the regular supply of top BL talent. The grassroots movements which triggered that supply started back in the mid nineties. I don't know how good the upcoming Bundesliga talents are, but Bayern heavily depend on BL to have a strong european presence. IF that talent dries up, historically Bayern have never been competent for the world class talents which are being chased by the biggest clubs (Real, Barca, United, etc). Despite winning 2 CL's in the last decade, reaching the semis multiple times and having a long BL winning streak, they've been regularly beat by other rich clubs for their top transfer targets. I assume they're not going to be any more attractive for the biggest transfers, if they're bread butter cheap BL transfers start yielding players of poorer quality.
I don't think that's really true. Their extremely successful last decade was largely on the back of being able to rely on the Ribery and Robben duo for such a long time, together with their own talents Schweinsteiger, Muller, Lahm, Alaba, and players bought from elsewhere like Boateng. I think these players were the backbone of their success, which then gradually were replaced, but apart from Lewandowski, Neuer, and and Goretzka I think they haven't really depended all that much on Bundesliga talent. Of course there's more in the squad but many of them aren't players who are/were irreplaceable in the grand scheme of things.
 

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I would have liked to see how he would have done at a top non German club. Bayern are like PSG in the sense that success domestically is guaranteed so it really becomes a question of wining the CL.
 

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But Dortmund can`t clame the Ruhrpott-region as theirs since there are to many clubs having to share that (sadly quite impoverished) region,while Frankfurt is basically alone in the RheinMain-Region for example.
This isn`t about population density anyway, it`s about financial potential in those regions.There is no financial potential in the City of Dortmund,while Frankfurt is the german finance-centre and biggest air-travel hub,Hamburg is the main Cargo-hub and Berlin our biggest Metropol...plus no-one ever said "let`s go visit Dortmund" unless you are there to watch BVB.
When your Club is the only reason to visit then you are not a relevant City.
The Ruhrgebiet and especially NRW isn't "impoverished", that is hyperbole which might have had some truth in the 80s and maybe somewhat in the 90s but certainly not a thing today. That doesn't mean individual cities like Gelsenkirchen or Dortmund are wealthy but let's not pretend only rich people live in Barcelona, Madrid, London or Manchester.
The influence of a club like Dortmund reaches across the whole of NRW, I have plenty of friends who live in Düsseldorf and are BVB fans for example. The decline of RW Essen, RW Oberhausen, Duisburg and other clubs in the area also meant that whole generations from these areas fell into the hands of Dortmund and Schalke.
Nowadays there are many big companies in NRW and has actually become a hub for tech companies and start-ups in general. So it doesn't matter whether or not a company is directly in Dortmund, this isn't the 80s, sponsors don't just come from your local town anymore.
 

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How he handles the big names there will be interesting to see. Will make or break his spell there given he obviously is a superb tactician. Getting big names onside and working with you totally different challenge though
 

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...plus no-one ever said "let`s go visit Dortmund" unless you are there to watch BVB.
I've been to Dortmund, but I'd hardly recommend it as a tourist attraction.

If memory serves, it was very heavily damaged during WW2 - and as a modern city it's quite bland and not very interesting. Mainly known for the football these days (as you say).

No offence to Dortmund residents on the Caf - of course.

But as someone who has traveled extensively in Germany, it just ain't a place I would enthusiastically recommend to anyone.
 

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Give me your figures and I will tell you.
Ha. Sorry didn't know I was talking to the Riddler.

Anyways here's the figures in morse code.

.-..-. .-- .... . -. / ... . .- --. ..- .-.. .-.. ... / ..-. --- .-.. .-.. --- .-- / - .... . / - .-. .- .-- .-.. . .-. --..-- / .. - / .. ... / -... . -.-. .- ..- ... . / - .... . -.-- / - .... .. -. -.- / ... .- .-. -.. .. -. . ... / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / -... . / - .... .-. --- .-- -. / .. -. - --- / - .... . / ... . .- .-.-.- .-..-.

Get cracking.
 

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Ha. Sorry didn't know I was talking to the Riddler.

Anyways here's the figures in morse code.

.-..-. .-- .... . -. / ... . .- --. ..- .-.. .-.. ... / ..-. --- .-.. .-.. --- .-- / - .... . / - .-. .- .-- .-.. . .-. --..-- / .. - / .. ... / -... . -.-. .- ..- ... . / - .... . -.-- / - .... .. -. -.- / ... .- .-. -.. .. -. . ... / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / -... . / - .... .-. --- .-- -. / .. -. - --- / - .... . / ... . .- .-.-.- .-..-.

Get cracking.
I already thought you were on the wum when you said Bayern was too small of a club for the ESL but I think you're making it a little too obvious right now.
 

Chesterlestreet

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-. .- --. . .-.. ... -- .- -. -. / -.. .-. . ... ... . ... / .-.. .. -.- . / .- / - .-- .- - .-.-.-
 

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I would have liked to see how he would have done at a top non German club. Bayern are like PSG in the sense that success domestically is guaranteed so it really becomes a question of wining the CL.
Pirlo, Lennon and Emery have shown that all it takes is one poor appointment to break the dominance, it's not as easy as it looks.

In some ways the walking into established dominance element makes it harder, he will have to convince well fed serial winners to not only keep going, but to buy into his ideas.
 

nuanced

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I don't think that's really true. Their extremely successful last decade was largely on the back of being able to rely on the Ribery and Robben duo for such a long time, together with their own talents Schweinsteiger, Muller, Lahm, Alaba, and players bought from elsewhere like Boateng. I think these players were the backbone of their success, which then gradually were replaced, but apart from Lewandowski, Neuer, and and Goretzka I think they haven't really depended all that much on Bundesliga talent. Of course there's more in the squad but many of them aren't players who are/were irreplaceable in the grand scheme of things.
One of the keys to SAF's continued success over a long period of time, was his ability to refresh the squad every 2-3 years by adding new players who bought more energy and competition to the team. Sure Schweini, Muller, Lahm, Alaba were brought from their youth team and were the lynchpin over most of the decade and their other star players were brought from other leagues. Look at their BL transfers, and you'd notice that all of these are first team started for every other BL team and some of them were key BM players for a few seasons as well:


Kimmich
Gomez
Gnabry

Pizarro
Mandzukic
Sule

Hummels
Dante
Gustavo

Rode
Rudy


It's this revolving door policy of transfers which keeps the squad fresh and reduces complacency among the first team starters. BM also earned a tidy profit on most of the young players among them. Give United access to a regular supply of players of such quality, and they might emulate their dominance from the nineties again.
 

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I don't think that's really true. Their extremely successful last decade was largely on the back of being able to rely on the Ribery and Robben duo for such a long time, together with their own talents Schweinsteiger, Muller, Lahm, Alaba, and players bought from elsewhere like Boateng. I think these players were the backbone of their success, which then gradually were replaced, but apart from Lewandowski, Neuer, and and Goretzka I think they haven't really depended all that much on Bundesliga talent. Of course there's more in the squad but many of them aren't players who are/were irreplaceable in the grand scheme of things.
BL players we didn't get:
Kompany (yes, he once was a BL player), Van der Vaart, Diego, Özil, Sahin, Adler, Kagawa, Subotic, Pisczeck, Vidal, Reus, ter Stegen, Gündogan, Carvajal, De Bruyne, Xhaka, Sane, Draxler, Höwedes, Firmino, Mkhitaryan, Naldo, Castro, L. and S. Bender, Aubameyang, Dembele, Raffael, Stindl, Tah, Toprak, Ginter, Dahoud, Weigl, Matip, Volland, Werner, Keita, Forsberg, Kruse, Klostermann, Sokratis, Hector, Khedira, Schürrle, Rebic, Jovic, Haller, Bailey, Havertz, Diallo, Kehrer, Meyer, Demirbay, Schürrle, Brandt, Kampl, Konate and so on.
We will also not get either Haaland or Sancho, that much should be obvious.

Some might say a lot of those players don't have Bayern quality and while that might be true who knows how some of them would have developed if they had played for Bayern (some of the Bayern transfers people like to cite were also players where you could have had those doubts, someone like Weigl was for a time more hyped than Goretzka, see how that turned out).
That is still an immense list of BL players we "missed" throughout the years and I certainly forgot more.
Imagine how Bayern would look like if we had signed Adler instead of Neuer, Diego/VdV instead of Ribery and/or Robben (which was an actual discussion at the time, the other big alternative to Ribery was Quaresma...), Özil instead of trusting Müller, Brandt instead of Gnabry, Weigl/Dahoud instead of Goretzka/Kimmich, Coentrao instead of Alaba (we decided to go just for Rafinha and that opened the door for a young Alaba as FB) and so on.
Lewandowski might have been the one true "obvious" pick but back then the same seemed true for Götze and he flopped (that's a case where De Bruyne instead of Götze would have been the better choice).
People focus a lot on the players we bought but forget which we didn't buy or what decissions had to be made at the time including the financial side of things.
It's not too hard to imagine a squad which could have cost the same but would be a lot worse than what we did get over the last ~10 years. In average we simply made mostly good or at least decent transfers and also developed a lot of players to a level noone really expected.