Two american tourists jailed for 21 years in Italy after killing an undercover policeman

As usual these type of cases are never cut and dry.

Is it unusual for tourists to be carrying a weapon for self defence? would an american whos used to carrying a firearm on themselves for self defence feel a knife is out of the norm?

The whole situation seems pretty shady. No doubt they were probably drunk/high already, one they found out they got conned they wanted to take the law into their own hands.

If the police really were working with the guy as a police informant, were they going there impartially? they went undercover in plain clothes but had no weapons.

The americans say they were attacked first, and then used the knife for self defence.

It all depends on who is telling the truth. Did the American lose control and attack them first fearing he'd be in trouble? Did they attack him trying to teach them a lesson, then ended up messing with a guy with a big knife and no defence themselves?

I suspect it's probably a mixture of both. They'll never defeat the word of a police offer though in their home country. Whether they're innocent or guilty, they were destined to be in this mess.

My mate went to Italy at the end of 2019. I told him to buy a knife while he was there because Italians are stabby.

Scarlett Dracarys said:

Most people get that and he definitely has to pay for what he did but does the punishment fit the crime ? He's a young boy with his whole life ahead of him. Not saying that he shouldn't be sent to prison but it's not like he it was a coldblooded attack. He was in a somewhat shady situation and being in a foreign country must have added to his panic. I'm sure if he knew that was a cop this whole thing would have played out quite differently. He shouldn't be stabbing anyone but he was obviously reacting to a situation and chose the wrong way out.

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My issue with that is that he/they didn't just end up in a shady situation at random. I mean they stole from a drug dealer who scammed them and actually decided to set up an exchange with that guy AND one of the boys decided to bring a combat knife to that meeting. They obviously knew the whole thing was dangerous as hell and still decided not just to go there but actually set it up themselves.

Arranging the meet up does seem stupid, but people wanting drugs are known to do stupid things so they can get high.

Personally, I'd have stolen the bag and not looked back, mostly as a feck you. I might have even Fulham Bear'd it as I traipsed across Europe.

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:

Arranging the meet up does seem stupid, but people wanting drugs are known to do stupid things so they can get high.

Personally, I'd have stolen the bag and not looked back, mostly as a feck you. I might have even Fulham Bear'd it as I traipsed across Europe.

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Arranging the meet up after sticking up his bag and phones. In a foreign country. A very idiotic move for 2 foreign tourists.

They're kinda lucky it's a cop that shows up. If it's a real gang member they'd be in some bad spot knife or no knife.

Sky1981 said:

Arranging the meet up after sticking up his bag and phones. In a foreign country. A very idiotic move for 2 foreign tourists.

They're kinda lucky it's a cop that shows up. If it's a real gang member they'd be in some bad spot knife or no knife.

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Yes, I agree that it was dumb but for me it's likely that they contacted the guy and said all we want is the charlie we paid you for and you can have the bag back. Like I said, people who want to get high are jonesing for a fix will do stupid things.

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:

Arranging the meet up does seem stupid, but people wanting drugs are known to do stupid things so they can get high.

Personally, I'd have stolen the bag and not looked back, mostly as a feck you. I might have even Fulham Bear'd it as I traipsed across Europe.

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I loved that. Whatever happened to that?

Sky1981 said:

The 2 boys arent angels.

The brought a combat knife. They deal coccaine. They robbed the dealer. The even have the guts to meet him again. And fhey finally stabbed the guy 11 times.

The odds of all the above happening to a nice ordinary joes are 1 in a million.

Snorting drugs on holiday? Understandable
Bringing knifes on holiday? Er... hard to understand
Robbing a dealer? That's omar little shit
Actually getting away from it and decided to meet up again with the dealer they just robbed? That's ball of steels there.

Hard to find any defence whatsoever. We're all young and might did one point of the above in the name of stupid youth. But all of the above?

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21 year old kids v 13 year old man.

That’ll be the narrative.

Penna said:

Despite what you might think, most of Italy isn't like an episode of The Sopranos.

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I can't imagine you and Oates trying to blend in if it was

Penna said:

Despite what you might think, most of Italy isn't like an episode of The Sopranos.

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Just the southern bit, a large part of the middle and all of the north. Apart from that, yeah.

Scarlett Dracarys said:

Most people get that and he definitely has to pay for what he did but does the punishment fit the crime ? He's a young boy with his whole life ahead of him. Not saying that he shouldn't be sent to prison but it's not like he it was a coldblooded attack. He was in a somewhat shady situation and being in a foreign country must have added to his panic. I'm sure if he knew that was a cop this whole thing would have played out quite differently. He shouldn't be stabbing anyone but he was obviously reacting to a situation and chose the wrong way out.

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Yes it does fit the crime. Murder is a mandatory life sentence, and 21 years is the minimum. Maybe being Americans they thought gunning somebody down was a normal reaction and had to settle for a knife on this occasion, but not in Italy. It doesn't matter if they were cops or not, or how panicked he might have been. He was in a shady situation of his own doing and stabbing somebody 11 times is just about the textbook definition of murder.

Jippy said:

I don't get why you blame everyone apart from the kid who stabbed the cop 11 times with the 7 inch combat knife he smuggled into the country.

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I did blame the kid in my very first post, I also think there’s more blame to go around beyond the obvious here and these aren’t some cold blooded killers like they are being portrayed in court.

Wednesday at Stoke said:

I did blame the kid in my very first post, I also think there’s more blame to go around beyond the obvious here and these aren’t some cold blooded killers like they are being portrayed in court.

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It might not be how you'd expect things to be and to go in your own country, but in a way, that's the point. It's how things go in the country they came to. Frequently we hear of instances when our own tourists, young people mostly travel to foreign countries and offend because those countries they are visiting have different standards, laws and practices. If you visit a different country you find different values and different ways of doing things, things that don't necessarily match up with the standards you know. After all, there's the apt and cliched saying, 'When in Rome etc'. I'm not trying to be funny or glib, but we can feel free to criticise, but our expectations aren't matched everywhere and if you are in someone else's home you should be deferent to different behaviours and customs.

Maybe it is the undercover policemen's mistake to expect two Americans to accept them at their word, maybe the two boys misunderstood what was going on, it doesn't help the boys defence in any way, or our defence of them to claim some believed higher or different standards should have been in play. However, stabbing anyone 11 times anywhere in the World on a street doesn't match with the British standard of Self Defence and I'm not sure whether it does where the two boys come from. Whatever, in Italy it is Murder, the fault is not going to be found easily with the dead officer or his colleague.


As an aside, there's so much knife crime now in the UK. Almost every day there's one or two new stories of teenagers being killed with knives. What's happened? We never used to carry any weapons when I was a teenager, I realise comparatively for some here that my teenage years were a long time ago. Fighting was rare but if it did happen it was mostly during break-times at school, the most you'd come away with would be bruises and the odd graze, torn shirts. A lot of you have children, do they carry knives? Have you checked or would you even recommend it?

Isotope said:

So two undercover police officers with no gun, went a long way to setup a trap, just to retrieve a drug dealer's stollen bag?

Hmm..

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How common is coke in italy?

The dealer was probably just a chump scammer scamming tourist for weeds etc. But if the guest wants coke that could be a real crime in some city. The cops not knowing they're american might feel the need to see what happened (considering they dont bring guns i doubt they're going in with the intention to apprehend or arrest).

Just my take. But Carrabinieri is pretty special police from what i read they're kinda MP so i dont think they're interested in small bribe from tourist.

I dont know about italy. But cocainne is big deal in here.

Sky1981 said:

How common is coke in italy?

The dealer was probably just a chump scammer scamming tourist for weeds etc. But if the guest wants coke that could be a real crime in some city. The cops not knowing they're american might feel the need to see what happened (considering they dont bring guns i doubt they're going in with the intention to apprehend or arrest).

Just my take. But Carrabinieri is pretty special police from what i read they're kinda MP so i dont think they're interested in small bribe from tourist.

I dont know about italy. But cocainne is big deal in here.

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That doesn't make sense. They set a trap because the drug dealer reported to them. They then purposely set a trap, just to see what happened?

The kid deserves all his jail time, but the cops aren't angels either.

Isotope said:

That doesn't make sense. They set a trap because the drug dealer reported to them. They then purposely set a trap, just to see what happened?

The kid deserves all his jail time, but the cops aren't angels either.

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Maybe it isnt a trap. Just checking what they're dealing with. There's no uniform no badge. Some cops might prefer to just wise the tourist up. Americans are usually a no go zone for most cops, unless it's a very serious crime.

In my country most western tourists just got of with a slap in the wrist reprimand for most cases.

Besides. What's the other possible motive here? Extortion? Kidnapping? If it's extortion they'd be coming with badges at least

Sky1981 said:

Maybe it isnt a trap. Just checking what they're dealing with. There's no uniform no badge. Some cops might prefer to just wise the tourist up. Americans are usually a no go zone for most cops, unless it's a very serious crime.

In my country most western tourists just got of with a slap in the wrist reprimand for most cases.

Besides. What's the other possible motive here? Extortion? Kidnapping? If it's extortion they'd be coming with badges at least

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I'm guessing the cops know this is about drug dealing, not just two American tourists throwing burgers in the park. There's no 'just to wise up" when dealing with drugs.

But then, i admittedly have zero knowledge about coke or drugs situation in Italy.

Sky1981 said:

Maybe it isnt a trap. Just checking what they're dealing with. There's no uniform no badge.

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Can you explain why you are saying there's no badge?

The officer who gave evidence stated that both of them showed their badges. They were in plain clothes and had no guns or other weapons.

The dead officer's badge has never been found and that suggests to me that someone picked it up and left the crime scene with it. Potentially another civilian or possibly the other officer but I can't see why he would, what would that gain?

oates said:

Can you explain why you are saying there's no badge?

The officer who gave evidence stated that both of them showed their badges. They were in plain clothes and had no guns or other weapons.

The dead officer's badge has never been found and that suggests to me that someone picked it up and left the crime scene with it. Potentially another civilian or possibly the other officer but I can't see why he would, what would that gain?

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It could be anything, and it wouldn't be surprising if it was the other officer or it even just got lost by the investigating police.

However, it doesn't matter if they showed their badge or not. Suppose they were actually drug dealers or corrupt cops, it still doesn't justify the reaction as self defence.

11101 said:

It could be anything, and it wouldn't be surprising if it was the other officer or it even just got lost by the investigating police.

However, it doesn't matter if they showed their badge or not. Suppose they were actually drug dealers or corrupt cops, it still doesn't justify the reaction as self defence.

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I'm just looking to ask why @Sky1981 says there were no badges and also suggest that in a way since it has never been found that it promotes to me that the officers did have them with them.

I also don't think there's any justification, as I said in my previous post.

oates said:

I'm just looking to ask why @Sky1981 says there were no badges and also suggest that in a way since it has never been found that it promotes to me that the officers did have them with them.

I also don't think there's any justification, as I said in my previous post.

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No badge not in literally as in it's probably not an official sting.

Normally police procedure would involve the whole precint knowing what's happening to the very least.

But some cops might just decide to just check on what happens.

I dont know, we might never know. But from what i know it's enough to not have any sympathy for the perps. It's cold blooded murder.

The cops might or might not have any ulterior motives, but they're not the one stabbing the kids.

Sky1981 said:

No badge not in literally as in it's probably not an official sting.

Normally police procedure would involve the whole precint knowing what's happening to the very least.

But some cops might just decide to just check on what happens.

I dont know, we might never know. But from what i know it's enough to not have any sympathy for the perps. It's cold blooded murder.

The cops might or might not have any ulterior motives, but they're not the one stabbing the kids.

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I understand now.

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:

My mate went to Italy at the end of 2019. I told him to buy a knife while he was there because Italians are stabby.

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Mess with Italo you get the stabbo.

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:

My mate went to Italy at the end of 2019. I told him to buy a knife while he was there because Italians are stabby.

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You what?

I am going for the most obvious explanation.

Two Italian cops got wind of two young American college guys in search for drugs, that stole a dealers backpack.
Probably wanted to give them a scare and harsh warning that running around searching for drugs, and additionally stealing dealers backpacks is not the smartest idea and could get them into serious trouble. And additionally having some fun while doing this
Probably not a texbook operation.
They underestimated the stupitidy, malicousness and psychological problems of at least one of the Americans.
The situations got quickly out of hand, some misunderstandings involved and at the end one cop dead, one (two) college guys lives ruined and several families being devastated.
So a somewhat harsh sentence, but I can feel few sympathy for the guy running around with a 7in knife, who stabs someone 11 times.

Wibble said:

I have no idea about this case but in general Italy sounds like a not so great place to get on the wrong side of the law.

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In all your travels where is?

I have to be honest, the Carabinieri being the Military Police here give me the willies. I've never been keen on seeing policemen carrying guns since travelling through Heathrow back in the early 2000s. There's something we never ever saw before in the UK as a bog standard citizen.

oates said:

In all your travels where is?

I have to be honest, the Carabinieri being the Military Police here give me the willies. I've never been keen on seeing policemen carrying guns since travelling through Heathrow back in the early 2000s. There's something we never ever saw before in the UK as a bog standard citizen.

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The Carabinieri do love to get tooled up with their MP5s and body armour and setup traffic checkpoints. It's the GdF everybody here is terrified of though. They have a ridiculous amount of power under the law.

11101 said:

The Carabinieri do love to get tooled up with their MP5s and body armour and setup traffic checkpoints. It's the GdF everybody here is terrified of though. They have a ridiculous amount of power under the law.

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Not come across the GdF yet, hope not to.

I think there's a sort of aura with the Carabinieri. Something to do with their jackboots, peaked caps, silver insignia, all that leather. Oh and as you say, the machine guns.

oates said:

Not come across the GdF yet, hope not to.

I think there's a sort of aura with the Carabinieri. Something to do with their jackboots, peaked caps, silver insignia, all that leather. Oh and as you say, the machine guns.

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They're everywhere here because of the border. They're well known for being able to take your property for just about any reason they like, and you have to prove your innocence to get it back.

How stupid are these guys?

- Brings a big knife with them on holiday
- Confronts a dealer over being scammed rather than chalking it up to the game
- Steals the dealers backpack
- Agrees to meet up again having stolen something from the dealer

The last one is mental. How could meeting up again work out in any scenario there.

Imagine what it takes to stab someone 11 times with a knife that big and not think they are definitely going to die. Just imagine the action of stabbing someone 11 times, it really is insane.

balaks said:

You what?

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All based off of being a football fan, of course. Plus his wife is hot AF so I figured there'd be a lot of leering and he might get into some bother

He ended up buying a butterfly knife and bringing it back here, then giving it to me. Those things are prohibited weapons under Canadian law so I destroyed it.