Where should Pogba and Rashford play?

tjb

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Pogba on the left easily. Rashford isn't consistently threatening enough. He has way too many games where he is just on the fringes. There are times outside of the goals, he offer nothing. For me, he's an x factor. Having him is our most creative winger is one of the issues we have had over the last few years. He can't be our main or second main player. He's more of an x factor player, which is great to have. This is not bashing him in anyway either. The media and some of our fans have tried endlessly to push him as our next best player, but for me, he and Sterling are pretty similar. A great team can't depend on them, but having them in the team makes you a lot more threatening.

For me, the solution is simple. Rashford has to adapt to either playing on the right or becoming a better striker. My gut feeling is that Pogba is staying long term because we've found a solution for him that works. Bruno can't be our only real creative outlet in the final third, Pogba providing support makes us a serious threat in attack. Bruno would probably tell you himself that the players he likes playing with the most are Pogba and Cavani, and that's what we should work on. Rashford can complete with Greenwood and Cavani for both the spots on the right hand side and the central role. He will have to adapt, but at every big team, this is what happens. Bale had to adapt to play with Ronaldo at Madrid. Sane is currently playing on the right for Bayern. Even with us, there were times where Giggs chipped in from behind the striker and the right ( in his under 30 days). Rooney constantly had to move along the attacking line to accommodate the team. Rashford isn't good enough to demand a set position. His goal this summer should be to adapt on the right, chances are he'll have to do the same for England.
 

wolvored

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I still think Pogba will leave either this summer or next, so this would be a short term problem anyway.
 

Dve

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If we buy a good enough defensive midfielder we could play 4-3-3 with Pogba and Bruno in midfield but I don't know if there is a defensive midfielder who could balance that out. Against weaker teams that formation could be useable.
I don´t think we should change the formation just for the sake of it. 4-2-3-1 works quite well, and it´s never static anyway. People are a bit blind to the fact that Fred and McTominay contributes in attack as well, they do not just guard the defence when we are in control of games. They could do it more perhaps, and a better DM would allow that. If Donny grows some balls, he could play next to e.g. Rice as an alternative to McTominay.
 
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jamesjimmybyrondean

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Those that don't see a DM with Pogba and Bruno as 8s working, I don't know much about tactics but there has to be some tactics where one of our full backs stays back to provide defensive cover instead of bombing forward
 

Dve

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I still think Pogba will leave either this summer or next, so this would be a short term problem anyway.
Having quality players on the bench is not a problem; it´s what we need to have any hopes of challenging for the title next season.
 

friendlytramp

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—————Proper DM
———-Bruno——Pogba
Sancho———————Rashford
——————-Striker
 

theklr

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I'm really curious to see what team Ole's gonna go with for the Europa League final. I think some of the best performances we've had this year were against Spurs and Roma where Pogba (on the left)/Cavani/Bruno linked really well together, so I wouldn't be surprised if we go with that and Rashy is moved to the right. But then again, Rashford is so much better on the left and when he plays there, he often makes those incredible runs (like against Granada away) which offer us a very direct way to score.

It's a good problem to have to be honest...
Im pretty sure Villareal will play compact, defensivly and low risk so Pogba LW and Rashford RW will be the preferred setup here.
 

Ali Dia

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I’m willing to give a dm the chance to bring out the best in Pogba in the middle but just on the back of the last night and just some of the things he’s done during his time here, do you really think any one player is going to be able to cover for that and play his own game? Ive always had major doubts about him as a box to box. He’s simply just much better on the left and less likely to cost us.
 

tjb

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Those that don't see a DM with Pogba and Bruno as 8s working, I don't know much about tactics but there has to be some tactics where one of our full backs stays back to provide defensive cover instead of bombing forward
Its very complex to get that to work. We aren't City or Barca. Ole isn't Pep.

It like the diamond, you need to have a manager who cant make that style work for it to work. Copying it based on someone else's implementation of it could lead to an ill balanced imitation. Better to fit them in system that we know works ( and force Rashford to adapt) than play a system we can't make work to shoehorn them in the same side.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I prefer Rashford over Pogba on the left.

I think we need to find a way to make a 3 man midfield with Pogba/Bruno work.
 

AkaAkuma

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It's unlikely we'll disturb McFred too much. Maybe we'll sign Rice, but the transition will take time. Solskjaer has shown he likes a settled team over major change.

I think Pogba and Rashford can rotate between multiple positions, but ultimately they will need to get the majority of minutes at LW.

Signing Sancho is a conundrum, while I like the idea of him being added to the RW options, he is ultimately a left winger. There also needs to be a path way for both Mejbri and Diallo.
 

kerryman

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Pogba is arguably the best player we have and, in my opinion, the best player should play in his best position.

Rashford has been poor left, right and centrally in 2021.
Yes, why do so many people think that Rashford simply has to be in the first 11? He is very inconsistent, if we have better options on the left or right he can be on the bench, simple! He's not that good that he can't be dropped. Tbh if he wasn't a graduate from our academy I think he'd be viewed differently, people seem reluctant to criticise him. Imo he's a mid-table team forward but we need better if we want to compete for EPL and CL titles.
 

Ekeke

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Bruno on the right wing? Not sure about that.
He'd be in the middle most of the time and have a midfielder as well as AWB overlapping. He wouldnt be stuck on the right, he'd be getting in the box
 

Borys

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Midfield of DM, Pogba and Bruno is a fifa-esque solution. It could work if we face a wall of opposition, but we should focus on finding a balanced setup against top opposition - because that's where we struggle.

What I think we should do is sell Pogba, buy a DM (we have none unless you count Matic) and a winger (we have none unless you count James). One of Rashford and Greenwood has to become a striker eventually. Next season we can play:

DM + 1
Bruno
Greenwood Rashford winger
I think it's possible to pull off this summer, we'll lose Cavani, sell Pogba and Martial.
 

Glorio

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Yes, why do so many people think that Rashford simply has to be in the first 11? He is very inconsistent, if we have better options on the left or right he can be on the bench, simple! He's not that good that he can't be dropped. Tbh if he wasn't a graduate from our academy I think he'd be viewed differently, people seem reluctant to criticise him. Imo he's a mid-table team forward but we need better if we want to compete for EPL and CL titles.
Midtable team forward with double figures in goals?? Two seasons in a row now?

The boy has been playing with injury and while he's not as creative as Pogba, he's more of a goal threat, and pushes teams backwards due to their fear of his pace. Pogba on the left gives us another dimension, but we need to find a role for Rashford
 

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I still cannot grasp why people are so confident Pogba will leave. He looks happier than ever. If he goes this whole story about rebuilding will fall through, since there is no player who can replace him when he plays the way he has in the past 6-7 months
Unless you think we will sign three world class players and somehow compensate the whole thing. Yeah, surely that will happen...
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Its very complex to get that to work. We aren't City or Barca. Ole isn't Pep.

It like the diamond, you need to have a manager who cant make that style work for it to work. Copying it based on someone else's implementation of it could lead to an ill balanced imitation. Better to fit them in system that we know works ( and force Rashford to adapt) than play a system we can't make work to shoehorn them in the same side.
It's not only Pep that does it. Ndidi - Tielemans - Maddison is similar. Casemiro - Kroos - Modric too. The problem is Pogba doesn't have the work rate like these other guys. He's played his best when he's surrounded by at least two defensively sound CMs/DMs - Herrera and Matic, Mctominay and Fred, Vidal and Pirlo, Matuidi and Kante. He's not hardworking off the ball to do the dirty work over a long period of time.

What I think would like to see is I'd hold off on getting Sancho this summer (only if nobody else is trying to sign him) and focus on getting a solid CB and DM(unless the budget can also get Sancho too). In easier games we partner Pogba and the DM in the double pivot. In tougher games Pogba goes to the left wing, DM and Fred behind Bruno, Greenwood on the right wing and Rashford on the bench. Giving us the luxury of players like Rashford and Martial coming off the bench
 

red woppit

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Yes, why do so many people think that Rashford simply has to be in the first 11? He is very inconsistent, if we have better options on the left or right he can be on the bench, simple! He's not that good that he can't be dropped. Tbh if he wasn't a graduate from our academy I think he'd be viewed differently, people seem reluctant to criticise him. Imo he's a mid-table team forward but we need better if we want to compete for EPL and CL titles.
He had that spell prior to his back injury where he looked world class, but I'm afraid that injury has knocked him back quite a bit, plus the other shoulder and ankle injuries he's suffered mean he's probably not 100% fit. It's a shame the Euros are on this summer, I think he could do with a long break.
I understand that recovery from back injuries, similar to Rashfords, can take several years to get over, and it happened in January 2020, so it may be next season before we can see his old self back, so at the moment, Pogba is the better bet there for me.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Those that don't see a DM with Pogba and Bruno as 8s working, I don't know much about tactics but there has to be some tactics where one of our full backs stays back to provide defensive cover instead of bombing forward
It's not only Pep that does it. Ndidi - Tielemans - Maddison is similar. Casemiro - Kroos - Modric too. The problem is Pogba doesn't have the work rate like these other guys. He's played his best when he's surrounded by at least two defensively sound CMs/DMs - Herrera and Matic, Mctominay and Fred, Vidal and Pirlo, Matuidi and Kante. He's not hardworking off the ball to do the dirty work over a long period of time.

What I think would like to see is I'd hold off on getting Sancho this summer (only if nobody else is trying to sign him) and focus on getting a solid CB and DM(unless the budget can also get Sancho too). In easier games we partner Pogba and the DM in the double pivot. In tougher games Pogba goes to the left wing, DM and Fred behind Bruno, Greenwood on the right wing and Rashford on the bench. Giving us the luxury of players like Rashford and Martial coming off the bench
I don't understand, one way you are trying to say there has to be tactic to make it work but the other way you just stated the problem that it won't work.

To put it simple, no it won't work for Pogba to play in midfield 3 alongside Bruno, may be if we play like Pep by using our full backs more as inverted full backs that cover the midfield when our midfield went advanced but only Pep so far playing like that. Ironically, Man City went to final Champions League when Silva left and they play with Gundogan now who is better defensively. We can argue that Pep's 433 with Silva & KDB is not as solid as the one with Gundogan in it who provides more balance. Modric's work rate & reading the game is incredible, Pogba's work rate & reading the game is nothing like Modric.

And another note for Pogba at France, it wasn't just Matuidi & Kante. France's full back in 2018 were originally centre backs. Lucas Hernandez plays as centre back & left back. Pavard was a centre back at Stuttgart, he's not really someone who's good at crossing with pace, he's just someone who's composed on the ball and good at press resistance.

You look at Bayern's team. Pavard is kind of like Bissaka in his end product. And they have hybrid midfielders in double pivot. Nothing wrong with this 4231 without a proper DM imo. Just keep Pogba away from the double pivot and we will be fine.
 

Roane

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Cavani has made our other players play differently. His movement, work rate and style has Bruno and Pogba looking for his runs. Something we haven't seen for a long time at UTD.

Our forwards are generally back to goal and run with the ball. I think Greenwood is learning off Cavani.

Now the controversial bit. I think Martial is a better forward in terms of holding the ball and movement than Rashy. If we continue to make chances for Cavani I think Martial maybe a better replacement/fill in than rashy.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I don't understand, one way you are trying to say there has to be tactic to make it work but the other way you just stated the problem that it won't work.

To put it simple, no it won't work for Pogba to play in midfield 3 alongside Bruno, may be if we play like Pep by using our full backs more as inverted full backs that cover the midfield when our midfield went advanced but only Pep so far playing like that. Ironically, Man City went to final Champions League when Silva left and they play with Gundogan now who is better defensively. We can argue that Pep's 433 with Silva & KDB is not as solid as the one with Gundogan in it who provides more balance. Modric's work rate & reading the game is incredible, Pogba's work rate & reading the game is nothing like Modric.

And another note for Pogba at France, it wasn't just Matuidi & Kante. France's full back in 2018 were originally centre backs. Lucas Hernandez plays as centre back & left back. Pavard was a centre back at Stuttgart, he's not really someone who's good at crossing with pace, he's just someone who's composed on the ball and good at press resistance.

You look at Bayern's team. Pavard is kind of like Bissaka in his end product. And they have hybrid midfielders in double pivot. Nothing wrong with this 4231 without a proper DM imo. Just keep Pogba away from the double pivot and we will be fine.
Not hard to understand. Basically saying Pogba looks a liability at the double pivot but maybe there's a tactic using our full backs that can make it work .

Agree with the post. I still expect Ole to use Pogba at the double pivot in certain games though.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Not hard to understand. Basically saying Pogba looks a liability at the double pivot but maybe there's a tactic using our full backs that can make it work .

Agree with the post. I still expect Ole to use Pogba at the double pivot in certain games though.
The time when Pogba played at his best in double pivots was with France World Cup when they used 2 full backs that are very good in defending with Kante & Matuidi as the work horse. So in this case we have the two same profile of full backs but just need Matuidi on our right/left wing. Do you like the idea of signing a defensive wide player version of Matuidi as our right winger solution just for the sake of playing Pogba in double pivot?

We will see what Ole is signing this summer. Either he signs a new midfield or signs a new winger. If he chooses to sign a new midfield but not a new winger then I don't expect much to see Pogba in double pivot in certain games anymore.
 

Sandikan

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What's the point of spending 78m on Sancho if we are playing a diamond though. If the plan is really to play Pogba on the left and get Sancho that would leave Rashford Martial and Greenwood on the bench. Does anybody really see that happening realistically? I think Pogba would go back to the double pivot if Sancho comes. Ole Is aware of his weaknesses but it doesn't stop him from playing Pogba there
Long term we need to find a way not to have to play the McFred combo. That opens up another place and would make us an attacking machine.

We do still lack that out and out right winger. Rashy and Martial can't do it. Greenwood is the best option but he's not really a natural.
 

rron10

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In recent games Pogba played very well in the AML - free role, cut-inside position, much better than Rashford. He offers something different with his movement and physical presence also him, Cavani and Bruno had been very good together. I wouldn't change anything, even if that means putting Rashford on the right, where he does not seem too comfortable.
The combination of Pogba plus one of McFred leaves us too open to attacks and has been shown against Roma where we conceded at least 10 chances. Maybe against smaller teams that offer no attacking threat it might be a solution but against more serious opponents the McFred combo works best for now until we can get a better DM.
 

roonster09

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Yes, why do so many people think that Rashford simply has to be in the first 11? He is very inconsistent, if we have better options on the left or right he can be on the bench, simple! He's not that good that he can't be dropped. Tbh if he wasn't a graduate from our academy I think he'd be viewed differently, people seem reluctant to criticise him. Imo he's a mid-table team forward but we need better if we want to compete for EPL and CL titles.
If he wasn't a graduate from our academy, people would have created threads in transfer forum asking the club to sign him and how he is the dream player to sign. Reason for this, apart from few, people don't even watch other full games. They just watch highlights and numbers. Rashford numbers are among the best in Europe.

PlayerMinsGoalsAssistsPenaltiesG+ANon Penalty Goals + AssistsMins per G+AMins per NPG+A
Haaland326037113484567.9272.44
Lewandowski31094388514360.9672.30
Messi390236147504378.0490.74
Kane362231166474177.0688.34
Mbappe338137109473871.9488.97
Son363421171383795.6398.22
Benzema35272881363597.97100.77
Rashford3796201523533108.46115.03
Muller3536142133532101.03110.50
Bruno4186261712433197.35135.03
Lukaku33522796363093.11111.73
Andre Silva26832696352976.6692.52
Ronaldo34113449382989.76117.62
Salah373129473326113.06143.50
Moreno318226911352490.91132.58

Imagine us being linked with the player who is
- 14th in G+A in top 5 leagues
- 8th in Non Penalty goals + assists in top 5 leagues
- 12th in mins per NPG+A in top 5 leagues
- player who has more goals + assists than Salah, Mane, KdB and all other PL players except Kane, Son, Bruno.

Yeah, he is anything but midtable PL attacker, if he wasn't playing for him, ManUtd fans would have rated him even higher seeing his numbers.
 

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Pogba played very well alongside Matic post lockdown last season - with Matic dropping in and making a three effectively when we had the ball. I think there’s a reason why Pogba generally is paired with Matic - Fred is very high risk when pressing which exposes us more alongside Pogba - so I think the issue is Matic has declined. Rice could fill that role - and it would give us a lot of options as it potentially opens up a 4-3-3. I genuinely think with Cavani staying this is one of the most obvious summers we’ve had transfer wise - Sancho, Rice and Torres with Pogba also staying gives us incredible depth - it’s easily one of the best squads in Europe. All those players are available so go get it done.
 

Mr. Ant

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I don´t think we should change the formation just for the sake of it. 4-2-3-1 works quite well, and it´s never static anyway. People are a bit blind to the fact that Fred and McTominay contributes in attack as well, they do not just guard the defence when we are in control of games. They could do it more perhaps, and a better DM would allow that. If Donny grows some balls, he could play next to e.g. Rice as an alternative to McTominay.
The only thing I find bad about that formation is when we play against weaker teams. We shouldn't need both Fred and McTominay but without them it is unbalanced.

So yeah someone like Rice could help us massively but if we can buy that DM we don't need another player next to him. It could help us play more with more consistency if we can play an actual left winger because right now with Pogba on the left and Greenwood on the right our fullbacks are basically alone on the wings. Shaw has improved in attack which is great and I think AWB is improving as well but is too much to ask for a proper right winger? Donny would also get to play more often and he would be more comfortable in a midfield 3 imo.

I have no problem with that formation against the stronger teams because it can work but we need to turn those draws into wins if we want to challenge city.

Well we'll see if we buy well in the summer and we can have this conversation next season.
 
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Brightonian

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Looking at the roma match it's unlikely.
But Fred isn't a proper DM, and he was playing in front of a mostly second-string back line.

I think a midfield of DM behind Pogba and Bruno is the way forward. That way everyone ends up in their very best position.

DM
Bruno Pogba
RW Cavani Rashford​

Ideally we sign Sancho and Greenwood competes for both that and the CF role (with Cavani in particular needing to be used wisely).

For difficult games you can drop Rashford/Pogba (depending on form) and put Fred or McT into midfield alongside the DM.
 

tjb

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It's not only Pep that does it. Ndidi - Tielemans - Maddison is similar. Casemiro - Kroos - Modric too. The problem is Pogba doesn't have the work rate like these other guys. He's played his best when he's surrounded by at least two defensively sound CMs/DMs - Herrera and Matic, Mctominay and Fred, Vidal and Pirlo, Matuidi and Kante. He's not hardworking off the ball to do the dirty work over a long period of time.

What I think would like to see is I'd hold off on getting Sancho this summer (only if nobody else is trying to sign him) and focus on getting a solid CB and DM(unless the budget can also get Sancho too). In easier games we partner Pogba and the DM in the double pivot. In tougher games Pogba goes to the left wing, DM and Fred behind Bruno, Greenwood on the right wing and Rashford on the bench. Giving us the luxury of players like Rashford and Martial coming off the bench
I think we're done playing Pogba in midfield tbh. Like in any form. He's now fully accepted himself as a defensive liability and so has Ole. There's a bigger issue for me with a 433. Bruno has proven himself to be a good goalscorer for us. His ability to roam has helped connect our attacking play and support the flanks. Furthermore we have learnt that he's very good at playing off a striker and running in behind. As a 10 he offers so much, why dwindle him to accommodate Rashford by potentially reducing his goal threat?

Rashford doesn't offer enough consistently to demand a system change.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I think we're done playing Pogba in midfield tbh. Like in any form. He's now fully accepted himself as a defensive liability and so has Ole. There's a bigger issue for me with a 433. Bruno has proven himself to be a good goalscorer for us. His ability to roam has helped connect our attacking play and support the flanks. Furthermore we have learnt that he's very good at playing off a striker and running in behind. As a 10 he offers so much, why dwindle him to accommodate Rashford by potentially reducing his goal threat?

Rashford doesn't offer enough consistently to demand a system change.
Why do you think this when he just played there in our last game
 

tjb

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Why do you think this when he just played there in our last game
Mctominay was suspended and Matic was the only other option. Plus Pogba played and showed us why the change occurred. I'm not saying that if we're completely out of options he wouldn't drop deep, but all indications point to us finally figuring him out. Which is what would make Pogba sign the contract.
 

Hammondo

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But Fred isn't a proper DM, and he was playing in front of a mostly second-string back line.

I think a midfield of DM behind Pogba and Bruno is the way forward. That way everyone ends up in their very best position.

DM
Bruno Pogba
RW Cavani Rashford​

Ideally we sign Sancho and Greenwood competes for both that and the CF role (with Cavani in particular needing to be used wisely).

For difficult games you can drop Rashford/Pogba (depending on form) and put Fred or McT into midfield alongside the DM.
I think there will probably be as many "difficult" games that requires Fred or mctom as non difficult games.
 

christy87

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If he wasn't a graduate from our academy, people would have created threads in transfer forum asking the club to sign him and how he is the dream player to sign. Reason for this, apart from few, people don't even watch other full games. They just watch highlights and numbers. Rashford numbers are among the best in Europe.

PlayerMinsGoalsAssistsPenaltiesG+ANon Penalty Goals + AssistsMins per G+AMins per NPG+A
Haaland326037113484567.9272.44
Lewandowski31094388514360.9672.30
Messi390236147504378.0490.74
Kane362231166474177.0688.34
Mbappe338137109473871.9488.97
Son363421171383795.6398.22
Benzema35272881363597.97100.77
Rashford3796201523533108.46115.03
Muller3536142133532101.03110.50
Bruno4186261712433197.35135.03
Lukaku33522796363093.11111.73
Andre Silva26832696352976.6692.52
Ronaldo34113449382989.76117.62
Salah373129473326113.06143.50
Moreno318226911352490.91132.58

Imagine us being linked with the player who is
- 14th in G+A in top 5 leagues
- 8th in Non Penalty goals + assists in top 5 leagues
- 12th in mins per NPG+A in top 5 leagues
- player who has more goals + assists than Salah, Mane, KdB and all other PL players except Kane, Son, Bruno.

Yeah, he is anything but midtable PL attacker, if he wasn't playing for him, ManUtd fans would have rated him even higher seeing his numbers.
And has been playing like that carrying an injury most of the season, for me Rashford is the 2nd name on the team sheet, he’s been playing shit but it’s statistically his best season so far, goals win games and he gets us that. Pogba is a luxury player, to fit him properly into the team we need a real CDM.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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I can't imagine Ole will change his formation but a 4222 would possibly suit the two of them.

As it stands, if we continue to play a 4231, which I think we should do, then it will have to be Rashy on the right or up top. That said, I guess it depends on the game.
 

Brightonian

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Juanderlust
I think there will probably be as many "difficult" games that requires Fred or mctom as non difficult games.
Depends on how good the DM we buy is, and how well he settles in, I guess. There are players out there who are good enough to let their sides play a trio like that, but I'll grant you they're few and far between. It helps that both Bruno and Pogba know how to put themselves about: it isn't as if we'd be asking the guy to play behind Mesut Ozil and Juan Mata.

EDIT: And it helps that we have that very rare commodity in modern elite football, two defensively reliable fullbacks.
 

OrcaFat

Full Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
5,663
Midtable team forward with double figures in goals?? Two seasons in a row now?

The boy has been playing with injury and while he's not as creative as Pogba, he's more of a goal threat, and pushes teams backwards due to their fear of his pace. Pogba on the left gives us another dimension, but we need to find a role for Rashford
Yes Rashford is too good not to be in the team when fit.