Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Buster15

Go on Didier
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
13,423
Location
Bristol
Supports
Bristol Rovers
Raven said:
For me, getting into power is only a part of the job. Obviously New Labour did have a number of successes, such as improving infrastructure, introducing the minimum wage and not being the actual Tories. If I could choose between the Blair years and the Johnson years, I have no doubt I'd pick the Blair years but that doesn't mean I want them now. We're stuck in a neoliberal thatcherite loop since the 80s and I'm sick of it.

I'm hoping we can move on from Keir, who is at best way in over his head and at worst is some kind of Tory asset, and hopefully move to more all encompassing leftist movement under someone like Clive Lewis or Andy Burnham, as I mentioned earlier, who I feel are soft left and inclusionary enough to assemble a left wing coalition within Labour. I understand that it's been a tough 11 years under the Tories but winning at all costs is not worth neoliberalism for another 40 years.
Click to expand...
Don't disagree with that. But to be able to do those things, you first have to win the election.
The 2017 & 2019 Labour manifesto's was soundly rejected. That is a fact. And so you first have to appeal to the majority with a set of policies which they are going to get behind.
So. Do you go even further to the left.
Or do you move toward the middle ground.
Whichever, Labour now has a real opportunity to reconnect with not just traditional Labour voters, important as that is.
But it also has to appeal to the new voters who are becoming entitled to vote.
That is the challenge. And that is the opportunity.
 

Oo0AahCantona

Full Member
Joined
May 23, 2014
Messages
5,335
Flying high said:
10 years time:

"Well the left did absolutely nothing to stop the rise in fascism in this country, how can I vote for them now?"
Click to expand...
Yeah, its like waking up from a bad dream, only to realise you weren't dreaming.

People are forgetting the fact that labour have had the grand total of 4? depending on how you count them, majority governments since the turn of the 20th century, with 1 universally beloved and successful one post ww2 under Atlee establishing the nhs and a host of economic reforms, Social reform Under Wilson in 64, and a centre right platform under Blair/brown. this is with a smattering of minority government terms dotted around, but the grand narrative ultimately is that the conservative party is pretty much the most successful political entity in the western world, the reason for this being its alignment with big capital interest groups like large media conglomerates, private business investment and the sole purpose of consolidating power to destroy the labour party at every turn.

We are a democracy in name only really, with just how impossible it is for any opposition to the Tory's. The structuring of the elections under FPTP isn't fit for purpose, and the groupings for the electoral boundaries only benefit them. having a party system the way we do, a vote for any party than isn't the largest opposition is a vote for the conservatives which is just insane, considering every other party is an opposition to the tory platform.

The only demographic that majority turnouts for the Tory's are retirees, but this is also the largest voting bloc as although most young people, and educated people are left wing, young people don't turn out to vote. its just a clusterfeck really, i dont expect people who work 9-5 to be up to date on political matters and philosophy, there's no time for that, but the fact that time and time again people are voting against their best interests is just further evidence for our democracy not functioning.

TLDR: the deck is stacked against everyone who aren't the Tory's, the public aren't voting in their interest, Britain is fecked in terms of a democracy.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,614
Location
Ireland
Buster15 said:
Don't disagree with that. But to be able to do those things, you first have to win the election.
The 2017 & 2019 Labour manifesto's was soundly rejected. That is a fact. And so you first have to appeal to the majority with a set of policies which they are going to get behind.
So. Do you go even further to the left.
Or do you move toward the middle ground.
Whichever, Labour now has a real opportunity to reconnect with not just traditional Labour voters, important as that is.
But it also has to appeal to the new voters who are becoming entitled to vote.
That is the challenge. And that is the opportunity.
Click to expand...
The 2017 and 2019 manifestos were not soundly rejected, in fact the policies polled very well. Corbyn and Brexit were the main reasons given for the 2019 loss, which makes perfect sense given the media onslaught on Corbyn and the disastrous Brexit policy sir Idiot gave us. 2017 was the biggest shock to the status quo in 40 years, they made absolutely sure it couldn't happen in 2019.

There is quite clearly and appetite for socialist policy in this country, but we need a Labour party all pulling in the same direction and a leader who can break through the media bullshit. I'm not sure why after the disaster Starmers just engineered through his centrist nonsense, you've decided, yeah I'll have a bit more of that please.
 

Flying high

Full Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2015
Messages
1,715
Raven said:
The 2017 and 2019 manifestos were not soundly rejected, in fact the policies polled very well. Corbyn and Brexit were the main reasons given for the 2019 loss, which makes perfect sense given the media onslaught on Corbyn and the disastrous Brexit policy sir Idiot gave us. 2017 was the biggest shock to the status quo in 40 years, they made absolutely sure it couldn't happen in 2019.

There is quite clearly and appetite for socialist policy in this country, but we need a Labour party all pulling in the same direction and a leader who can break through the media bullshit. I'm not sure why after the disaster Starmers just engineered through his centrist nonsense, you've decided, yeah I'll have a bit more of that please.
Click to expand...
There is. But we need to be very careful not to call it socialist.

I prefer the term 'economic power-up bonus plan'.

or

'Superfast upgrade path to success'

Why should asian t-shirts and the tory party have a monopoly on meaningless bullshit phrases?
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,614
Location
Ireland
Flying high said:
There is. But we need to be very careful not to call it socialist.

I prefer the term 'economic power-up bonus plan'.

or

'Superfast upgrade path to success'

Why should asian t-shirts and the tory party have a monopoly on meaningless bullshit phrases?
Click to expand...
Or maybe the 'socio mobility mega boost deal'. The possibilities are endless.
 

Buster15

Go on Didier
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
13,423
Location
Bristol
Supports
Bristol Rovers
Flying high said:
There is. But we need to be very careful not to call it socialist.

I prefer the term 'economic power-up bonus plan'.

or

'Superfast upgrade path to success'

Why should asian t-shirts and the tory party have a monopoly on meaningless bullshit phrases?
Click to expand...
If there is such an appetite for socialist policies, why has the only Labour election victories in recent history been for New Labour.
Look, I want to see a Labour party win an election with socialist policies.
But recent history and recent elections suggest that is not likely to happen.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,535
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
Starmer trying to maintain control. He’s on his way out. Lost the dressing room.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,614
Location
Ireland
Apparently he's about to sack a load more from the shadow cabinet. Here comes the purge.
 

ha_rooney

Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
38,811
Should resign himself. Visionless, boring cnut.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,162
Location
Manchester
Taking responsibility. By sacking someone else and getting his supporters in the party to brief against Corbyn still being the problem.

Absolutely useless leader.

The purge continues?
 

Frosty

Logical and sensible but turns women gay
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
17,209
Location
Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango!
esmufc07 said:
It’s an atrocious Shadow Cabinet to be fair. I think they’re all a reflection of Starmer. Bland and dull.
Click to expand...
Raven said:
Apparently he's about to sack a load more from the shadow cabinet. Here comes the purge.
Click to expand...
If you accept he purged the left after becoming leader I'm not sure you can then call a culling of the centre and right of the party another purge...

In any event here is the problem of only having 200 MPs. Once you exclude those you disagree with politically, and the incompetent, and those who are too old, who is left?
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,614
Location
Ireland
Frosty said:
If you accept he purged the left after becoming leader I'm not sure you can then call a culling of the centre and right of the party another purge...

In any event here is the problem of only having 200 MPs. Once you exclude those you disagree with politically, and the incompetent, and those who are too old, who is left?
Click to expand...
It's an ongoing purge, looks like he's going after the soft left now.
 

Frosty

Logical and sensible but turns women gay
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
17,209
Location
Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango!
Raven said:
It's an ongoing purge, looks like he's going after the soft left now.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't consider it that calculating. He is covering his back. Honestly if he had been serious about purging the party then compliance would have got rid of around 40 members in my CLP alone who had been suspended (and not expelled) for all sorts of unpleasant bullying and racism and anti-Semitism. He gambled he could get a half-decent result on the basis of not challenging the Government or presenting any policies and he lost badly.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,162
Location
Manchester
Raven said:
It's an ongoing purge, looks like he's going after the soft left now.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. It is work in progress. If he has his way, in about 10 years after the party may have recovered, we can vote for Tories in red or Tories in blue. The centrist dream.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,535
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
Raven said:
It's an ongoing purge, looks like he's going after the soft left now.
Click to expand...
We lost because we lost our support from the left.

What are you talking about? We lost because we didn’t gain enough support from the right so we are going to have to purge more of the left.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,614
Location
Ireland
Frosty said:
I wouldn't consider it that calculating. He is covering his back. Honestly if he had been serious about purging the party then compliance would have got rid of around 40 members in my CLP alone who had been suspended (and not expelled) for all sorts of unpleasant bullying and racism and anti-Semitism. He gambled he could get a half-decent result on the basis of not challenging the Government or presenting any policies and he lost badly.
Click to expand...
He's a shill for the right of the party, his job is to get rid of the left, sort of like Kinnock.
 

Flying high

Full Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2015
Messages
1,715
Buster15 said:
If there is such an appetite for socialist policies, why has the only Labour election victories in recent history been for New Labour.
Look, I want to see a Labour party win an election with socialist policies.
But recent history and recent elections suggest that is not likely to happen.
Click to expand...
Individually, socialist policies tend to poll very well. Socialism as a whole, not so well at all.

I think a lot of it comes from the fear of 'how far will it go' and the unknown nature of it for many. Those with something, fear being left with nothing if the economy collapses. That fear is paralysing british politics. The public as whole, need their collective hands held as we walk slowly and carefully to a more sensible and sustainable economy. Which literally can't happen with our political system as it is.

So no, it's really not likely to happen. If failed austerity doesn't cut through to the voters. Or Grenfell. Greenshill. Windrush. The failure to follow Cygnus and the resultant deaths in the pandemic etc etc etc. Then surely it's not just history that is written by the victor, they get to write the present as well.
 

F-Red

Full Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
10,891
Location
Cheshire
Flying high said:
The public as whole, need their collective hands held as we walk slowly and carefully to a more sensible and sustainable economy. Which literally can't happen with our political system as it is.
Click to expand...
I don’t know if it’s intentional, but a condescending tone and view that people need their hands holding wouldn’t surprise me as to why voters turn off from any form of Labour view or policy when they come canvassing.

Educating voters rather than insulting/offending you would be a much more effective way to get the message across.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.