Nurse Lucy Letby - guilty of murdering 7 babies - whole life sentence

Boogie Man

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2018
Messages
537
We had national service at the time although I think Dennis extended his service, my father in law and my old man both did military service around the same time as him as would every other able bodied male in the UK.

People are not easy to judge at face value or through a cursory glance at their background. As Penna has mentioned, the old guy originally suspected of Joanna Yeats' murder was absolutely crucified in the press because he looked a bit weird and was the stereotypical loner who just happened to have been her landlord and the press had to pay out a fortune in compensation for their defamation of him when it turned out to be somebody else who to all intents and purposes was a normal looking young bloke who lived nearby with his girlfriend.



On the housing estate I grew up on there was a bloke with mild Downs Syndrome maybe 10 years older than us who lived on the other side of the main road to the bus stop we took to school and he would always get shit off the rougher kids in terms of name calling and occasionally physical abuse. In my early 20s I was working on Bury market during Uni holidays and one morning the bus station was on complete lockdown with police tape everywhere, turns out this blokes elderly mother (Shirley Leach) had been to visit her daughter in Cheadle and after getting off the bus was raped and brutally murdered in the station toilets. He was the instant suspect and although there was no evidence and charges his life was ruined and I believe he ended up in a care home on the other side of Manchester near his sister. Fast forward 12 years and a normal looking family man from our estate was in a crash and suspected of drinking so along with the breathalyser they took a routine DNA swab at which point he was arrested for the unsolved murder he committed in his early 20s.

What you are doing is the reverse of this, it's impossible to declare somebody innocent because you find them normal looking and can't see any of the telltale signs all killers have. Those telltale signs are a media fiction concocted in hindsight most of the time but unfortunately for Chris Jefferies sometimes with an absence of foresight.
You're making a bit of a false equivalence here. The bar is set quite high when we are finding someone guilty of a crime, as it should be, it needs to be beyond reasonable doubt. Judging guilt by someone's looks simply will not do in a British court (and you'd hope in any court). And the burden of proof is on the prosecution here to find guilt, and they'd normally be expected to produce evidence of motive, means & opportunity. The defence doesn't actually have to do anything, it doesn't even have to prove innocence, although a good defence should be picking holes at the prosecution's case. If the prosecution is going to put forward a case, then they are really going to want to show motive. Now I don't know all the psychological conditions that would cause a person to kill 8 babies, but if, for example, the prosecution tried to claim the defendant was some kind of crazy attention seeker, then the defence could then show these photos to the jury, and pose the question "does this social profile really look the work of an attention seeking murderess to you, or is it more likely, the social profile of an ordinary 28yo nurse".

Wouldn't be the be all and end all of the case, we still don't know what the prosecution are going with here, or whether they even have a case, I think people are getting a bit bogged down to appearance here, but it could be a factor and a card the defence may want to play.
 

Bury Red

Backs Fergie, Yells Giggs!
Joined
Aug 31, 2001
Messages
10,627
Location
Nomadic no more
You're making a bit of a false equivalence here. The bar is set quite high when we are finding someone guilty of a crime, as it should be, it needs to be beyond reasonable doubt. Judging guilt by someone's looks simply will not do in a British court (and you'd hope in any court). And the burden of proof is on the prosecution here to find guilt, and they'd normally be expected to produce evidence of motive, means & opportunity. The defence doesn't actually have to do anything, it doesn't even have to prove innocence, although a good defence should be picking holes at the prosecution's case. If the prosecution is going to put forward a case, then they are really going to want to show motive. Now I don't know all the psychological conditions that would cause a person to kill 8 babies, but if, for example, the prosecution tried to claim the defendant was some kind of crazy attention seeker, then the defence could then show these photos to the jury, and pose the question "does this social profile really look the work of an attention seeking murderess to you, or is it more likely, the social profile of an ordinary 28yo nurse".

Wouldn't be the be all and end all of the case, we still don't know what the prosecution are going with here, or whether they even have a case, I think people are getting a bit bogged down to appearance here, but it could be a factor and a card the defence may want to play.
It's not me setting unreasonably high bars, it's you setting them ludicrously low when declaring such nonsense as "she doesn't look the type" and "her social media background looks too normal for her to be such a horrible murderer". The vast majority of our horrible murderers would have met the same criteria for your defence and many of those wrongly persecuted for crimes were pursued precisely because they happened to fit your mythical "type" that murderers always conform to when that profile is only ever uncovered post conviction and then done to death on the plethora of True Crime TV channels you clearly spend far too long watching.

If this nurse is guilty, note I have no idea nor assumption either way from the information that is currently available, then the most likely diagnosed cause of her killings post conviction would be Munchausen's By Proxy as in the case of Beverly Allitt. MSbP does not have any definitive traits prior to the killings however and is technically not even admissible in court in a prosecution these days, only being used post conviction to categorise the behaviour and advise any psychological treatment. Allitt was a weird bugger as a kid and a trainee nurse but staff shortages in hospitals led to signals being overlooked, Shipman was reportedly completely normal if a bit of a miserable sod but the statistical anomalies in his death figures were what finally tipped colleagues off and led to changes in the reviews of mortality statistics which are likely to have led to the earlier detection and detention in this case whether she is proven guilty or not. Whether she is normal looking, whatever that might mean, or has a squeaky clean background does not come into this at all.
 

Cloud7

Full Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
12,826
At this point there’s no way this guy isn’t deliberately wumming. There’s no way someone can be vehemently defending such horribly made points unless they’re doing it to get a reaction out of others.
 

Boogie Man

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2018
Messages
537
It's not me setting unreasonably high bars, it's you setting them ludicrously low when declaring such nonsense as "she doesn't look the type" and "her social media background looks too normal for her to be such a horrible murderer". The vast majority of our horrible murderers would have met the same criteria for your defence and many of those wrongly persecuted for crimes were pursued precisely because they happened to fit your mythical "type" that murderers always conform to when that profile is only ever uncovered post conviction and then done to death on the plethora of True Crime TV channels you clearly spend far too long watching.

If this nurse is guilty, note I have no idea nor assumption either way from the information that is currently available, then the most likely diagnosed cause of her killings post conviction would be Munchausen's By Proxy as in the case of Beverly Allitt. MSbP does not have any definitive traits prior to the killings however and is technically not even admissible in court in a prosecution these days, only being used post conviction to categorise the behaviour and advise any psychological treatment. Allitt was a weird bugger as a kid and a trainee nurse but staff shortages in hospitals led to signals being overlooked, Shipman was reportedly completely normal if a bit of a miserable sod but the statistical anomalies in his death figures were what finally tipped colleagues off and led to changes in the reviews of mortality statistics which are likely to have led to the earlier detection and detention in this case whether she is proven guilty or not. Whether she is normal looking, whatever that might mean, or has a squeaky clean background does not come into this at all.
Yeah I agree, but that is a form of attention seeking, and this Beverly Allitt, she was also aggressive, manipulative, erratic, played truant... and I'm really having a hard time believing the girl in question here is anything like that. But I think we're going round in circles now. I'm sticking by guns, she's innocent, I'm really confident on this one... sometimes a man just knows! You'll have to take my word for it for now.
 

100

binary bot
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
10,983
Location
HELLO
Sorry for the bump with no update. This story came into my head and I went to check what happened but there's nothing that I can find. How strange is it for someone to be arrested, rearrested a year later and then hear nothing for another year+?
 

Lay

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
19,981
Location
England
She’s been rearrested on 8 counts of murder and 10 counts of attempted murder
 

Rudie

Mentary
Joined
Jan 4, 2006
Messages
4,586
Location
Yorkshire
Now charged.

Her being named sits very uneasy with me, there are accounts supporting her work (she'd even refer children to special care nursery who would otherwise have been discharged because she thought they needed additional care beyond the neonatal unit) and that the trust itself was having a hard time of it (she even championed more funding for a new neonatal unit) but the Police must have something for her to be now charged.

@Penna Isn't there at least one parent around too on a neonatal unit? Only heading home to change etc? So opportunity for sinister activity is limited somewhat? If I was a mother and my child was in NICU I'd never leave their side.

That's the most sinister aspect for me, someone so professional but potentially masking something incredibly dark.

Trial by media with people already calling her another Beverley Allitt, I guess time will tell; horrendous crimes or tragedies of a failing and underfunded trust who need a scape goat...
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
13,122
Now charged.

Her being named sits very uneasy with me, there are accounts supporting her work (she'd even refer children to special care nursery who would otherwise have been discharged because she thought they needed additional care beyond the neonatal unit) and that the trust itself was having a hard time of it (she even championed more funding for a new neonatal unit) but the Police must have something for her to be now charged.

Trial by media with people already calling her another Beverley Allitt, I guess time will tell; horrendous crimes or tragedies.
It’s the same for me, naming her potentially prejudices any trial.

however, it’s not because she’s done good elsewhere, it’s because everyone deserves a fair trial. Jimmy Saville did a hell of a lot of good, raised millions of pounds for charity, and made hundreds of peoples’ dreams come true...
 

Rudie

Mentary
Joined
Jan 4, 2006
Messages
4,586
Location
Yorkshire
It’s the same for me, naming her potentially prejudices any trial.

however, it’s not because she’s done good elsewhere, it’s because everyone deserves a fair trial. Jimmy Saville did a hell of a lot of good, raised millions of pounds for charity, and made hundreds of peoples’ dreams come true...
True, a lot of statements from friends and neighbours saying they're shocked, don't believe it etc will certainly prejudice any trial, guess it goes both ways.
 
Last edited:

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
34,063
Arrested three time and publicly named before she was ever charged does seem strange.

With this kind of crime naming the suspect comes with with particular risk, you would think. Is it normal for people to be named in these circumstances in the UK? Seems reckless.
 
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
13,122
Arrested three time and publicly named before she was ever charged does seem strange.

With this kind of crime naming the suspect comes with with particular risk, you would think. Is it normal for people to be named in these circumstances in the UK? Seems reckless.
not for this type of crime.

when there’s potential for other victims, and the police need them to come forward or to be identified, then yes. But the little I know about this, it doesn’t seem to be in anyone’s interest to name her. If she’s innocent, her life is ruined. I don’t see how this helps anyone.
 

The Boy

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
4,350
Supports
Brighton and Hove Albion
Arrested three time and publicly named before she was ever charged does seem strange.

With this kind of crime naming the suspect comes with with particular risk, you would think. Is it normal for people to be named in these circumstances in the UK? Seems reckless.
I haven't seen all the stories around this, but was she actually named by police before being charged?

Often what happens is police will issue a statement saying, for example, they have arrested a 28year old woman from XXXX on suspicion of XXXXX and the media jigsaw the identity. The police would rarely confirm it, but often give a nod that the media do not have it wrong for instance. Seems there's been quite a bit of misunderstanding in this thread over the bail back in July 2018 when she was released on police bail (pre charge bail), which means she hadn't been charged but had to return to the police station at a certain date. So the posters shocked that she had been bailed didn't get that she hadn't been charged.

Once she is charged like now, the case becomes "active" it means the police will generally (except in exceptional circumstances) release the name and charges. The media is only allowed to report name, charges, address, court dates etc all speculation should stop otherwise publishers can find themselves in contempt of court for prejudicing a potential jury. This is a boundary that has been pushed and pushed in the UK media for years and now with online reporting it is very difficult to police as all the speculation is already out there.
 

Penna

Kind Moderator (with a bit of a mean streak)
Staff
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
49,681
Location
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
Now charged.

Her being named sits very uneasy with me, there are accounts supporting her work (she'd even refer children to special care nursery who would otherwise have been discharged because she thought they needed additional care beyond the neonatal unit) and that the trust itself was having a hard time of it (she even championed more funding for a new neonatal unit) but the Police must have something for her to be now charged.

@Penna Isn't there at least one parent around too on a neonatal unit? Only heading home to change etc? So opportunity for sinister activity is limited somewhat? If I was a mother and my child was in NICU I'd never leave their side.

That's the most sinister aspect for me, someone so professional but potentially masking something incredibly dark.

Trial by media with people already calling her another Beverley Allitt, I guess time will tell; horrendous crimes or tragedies of a failing and underfunded trust who need a scape goat...
Well, in my experience there were often times when there were no parents with a child. Babies can be in the NICU for a very long time, dads have to work, mums are often recovering from the birth or have other children to care for. I did a lot of night shifts and those were mostly when no parents were there at all, unless a baby was critically ill.

Other relatives weren't allowed in, so if mum or dad weren't there, no-one was there.
 

Santos J

Full Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
7,366
Case is being sent to crown court now, been remanded and due to appear tomorrow.

Alleged victims were named this morning which seems strange or is that standard? 2 are seemingly siblings too and within a day of each other, poor family. :(
 

Hugh Jass

Shave Dass
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
11,292
Actually more common than you think. I read a true crime book called The Good Nurse, a while back about a nurse killing patients.

Harold Shipman then was a doctor.
 

Tottenhamguy

Full Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
1,006
Supports
Tottenham Hotspur
Nurse Lucy Letby appears in court in baby murders case

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-57057864


A nurse accused of murdering eight babies and attempting to murder another 10 has appeared in court.
Lucy Letby, 31, of Arran Avenue, Hereford, is charged with murdering five boys and three girls at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.
She is also accused of the attempted murder of another five boys and five girls.
Ms Letby appeared at Manchester Crown Court via videolink.
The 31-year-old spoke only to confirm her name and that she could hear proceedings.
The hearing dealt with case management ahead of a trial next year.
Ms Letby was arrested in 2018 and 2019 as part of a police investigation at the hospital, which began in 2017.
She will remain in custody and is due to appear at the same court on 17 May.
 

Deery

Dreary
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
18,590
feck sake today was a good day why’d you have to go and bump this thread to remind me how evil the world can be.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
30,429
Supports
Everton
This case is really hard to comprehend currently as there is little to no information about how they suspect her.
 

Rhyme Animal

Thinks Di Zerbi is better than Pep.
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Messages
11,193
Location
Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
Awful case. It’s horrible because if she’s guilty then you feel such incredible anger toward her, and if she’s innocent then you feel such pity toward her…

It’s very strange, and I hope either way the evidence makes it clear cut.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
29,858
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
I'd never heard of this case and kind of wish I hadn't know. That has grimmed me out.

It must be awful for the families and god help the poor feckers picked for the jury.
 

Eyepopper

Lowering the tone since 2006
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
66,926
The evidence so far is that she was on duty when it happened. I hope that the prosecution has a lot more than that up their sleeve.
News earlier said she was the only member of staff who was on duty when every attack happened.

Also said they found paperwork relating to some of the deaths when they raided her home.
 

Hugh Jass

Shave Dass
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
11,292
Terrible. Terrible really. feel so bad for the families of the babies.
 

LARulz

Full Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
18,194
This was her 3rd arrest right? So I can only imagine this time they had indisputable evidence. Would there not be CCTV cameras or something in these rooms?

If it's all true, I just cannot fathom what is going on in someone's mind for all this to happen/be normal