What to do with the kids

flappyjay

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After seeing Elanga and Amad have a decent game in our second string last night, I have been asking myself what are going to do with them. They are not ready to start but I think they are ready to start getting decent minutes.

Then there is Pellestri, Shoretire and Hannibal. They are all around the age Rushford and Greenwood started getting chances so it wont be surprising if it's in the back of their minds that they should start getting some minutes too. What does Ole and his staff do, loan is the easy option but they rarely turn out well.
 

Bilbo

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flappyjay said:
After seeing Elanga and Amad have a decent game in our second string last night, I have been asking myself what are going to do with them. They are not ready to start but I think they are ready to start getting decent minutes.

Then there is Pellestri, Shoretire and Hannibal. They are all around the age Rushford and Greenwood started getting chances so it wont be surprising if it's in the back of their minds that they should start getting some minutes too. What does Ole and his staff do, loan is the easy option but they rarely turn out well.
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Loans can be great if you are lucky enough to find the right club in the right circumstances. I bet if we could guarantee 30 games a season at a good level somewhere then we'd be loaning out a lot more players, but too often we see a club bringing players in to fill out a squad and they don't play. I'd far rather they be learning from our own coaches than sitting on a bench somewhere else.
 

Rood

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some will have to go on loan - they can be hit and miss but the likes of Garner and Laird have had successful loans this season

Amad is the only one who I think is ready for the first team but if we bought Sancho then probably he has to go on loan too
 

charlenefan

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Way too soon for most of them to be going out on loan. These are the only ones I'd want to be sent out

Laird
Garner - Forest
Levitt
Williams - Southampton/Newcastle
Pellistri
Mengi - Derby

Amad is an interesting one because you can see first team football over in the Bundesliga would see him tear it up but you don't typically let a talent like that go out on loan you keep him and utilise him yourself
 

Peter van der Gea

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Rood said:
some will have to go on loan - they can be hit and miss but the likes of Garner and Laird have had successful loans this season

Amad is the only one who I think is ready for the first team but if we bought Sancho then probably he has to go on loan too
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Dunno, Shaw has gone up a level with competition, and we've got space for both Sancho and Amas to rotate on the right
 

Rood

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Peter van der Gea said:
Dunno, Shaw has gone up a level with competition, and we've got space for both Sancho and Amas to rotate on the right
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Well there is Dan James and Greenwood is still playing on the right often so if Sancho came then no point in Amad staying
 

JJ12

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Wait to see over pre season who has progressed and who hasn’t.

I’d like to see if Laird or Garner have progressed enough to be squad players here.
 

flappyjay

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JJ12 said:
Wait to see over pre season who has progressed and who hasn’t.

I’d like to see if Laird or Garner have progressed enough to be squad players here.
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I would think Laird is at least ready to be back up for Wan-Bissaka. Williams didn't feel me up with confidence at all.
 

Peter van der Gea

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Rood said:
Well there is Dan James and Greenwood is still playing on the right often so if Sancho came then no point in Amad staying
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Dan James is a left forward, not really a right winger, a bit like Rashford. He isn't the best at cutting in on to his left foot to shoot. I also think he's going to grow into more of a Park Ji-Sung utility player rather than a specialist battling it out for a particular spot.

Greenwood, I think, will have more and more time up top, learning directly from Cavani
 

Eckers99

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Crashoutcassius said:
Rashford and greenwood played well when they got their chances... So I'd suggest they do that as and when they get chances
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There were more opportunities for those 2, as the first team was much weaker than its (hopefully) likely to be over the next 2 years.

As others have said, a few of them probably need loans but only if the circumstances are right. When it works, as it has with Garner, everybody benefits.
 

Robbo*

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flappyjay said:
I would think Laird is at least ready to be back up for Wan-Bissaka. Williams didn't feel me up with confidence at all.
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I agree - I think Laird can deputise for him next season, without us needing to worry about signing Trippier etc
 

Tallis

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flappyjay said:
After seeing Elanga and Amad have a decent game in our second string last night, I have been asking myself what are going to do with them. They are not ready to start but I think they are ready to start getting decent minutes.

Then there is Pellestri, Shoretire and Hannibal. They are all around the age Rushford and Greenwood started getting chances so it wont be surprising if it's in the back of their minds that they should start getting some minutes too. What does Ole and his staff do, loan is the easy option but they rarely turn out well.
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It’s a tough one. Pellistri is already on Loan at a top division side and think we can find him a loan next season where he continues to get minutes. I suspect Amad is good enough to get some minutes as a rotation option andfrankly we may need some bench depth even if we sign sancho.

I suppose we can get a loan for Elanga. Shoretire I think is too young to go out on loan. So maybe he gets some minutes in senior football and continues in U23.

For Hannibal - I think we should try to incorporate him in our senior team. Get him 10-20 minutes every week or so and start in cup games.
 

justsomebloke

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flappyjay said:
After seeing Elanga and Amad have a decent game in our second string last night, I have been asking myself what are going to do with them. They are not ready to start but I think they are ready to start getting decent minutes.

Then there is Pellestri, Shoretire and Hannibal. They are all around the age Rushford and Greenwood started getting chances so it wont be surprising if it's in the back of their minds that they should start getting some minutes too. What does Ole and his staff do, loan is the easy option but they rarely turn out well.
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I thought there was a huge difference between the two. I don't think Elanga showed anything to indicate he's ready for this level. But Diallo I think has shown also previously that he has something to offer already. A goal against AC Milan, and an assist yesterday.
 

Crimson King

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justsomebloke said:
I thought there was a huge difference between the two. I don't think Elanga showed anything to indicate he's ready for this level. But Diallo I think has shown also previously that he has something to offer already. A goal against AC Milan, and an assist yesterday.
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I agree. Still have hopes for Elanga, but Diallo has shown a few glimpses of that bit extra. I think he's ready to start getting minutes here and there. Maybe coming in for Greenwood towards the end of games if the results already in the bag.

I imagine we have to wait until next season though. Hopefully he gets a full pre season and feels settled by the time it kicks off.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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There are numerous factors at play.

1. Who will be leaving to create opportunities?
2. Who is going to be bought which reduces opportunities
3. The development of each player at a physical, technical and emotional level
4. What clubs are suitable for loans....90% are not
5. What clubs will actually play our kids
6. The standard of U/23 football in any given season
7. The ability post-COVID to organise friendly games to push the kids on
8. The actual amount of playing time the kids are getting (Williams and Tuanzebe have virtually lost a season)
9. What they will learn as squad players just staying with the first team environment
10. The motivation of each player

That's why Academy development is so difficult. The fact that we get it right in 98% of cases still staggers me.
 

bosnian_red

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If they're too good for u21 but not good enough for the first team, then loan. If they can make an actual impact in the first team and not just a token youth player appearance, then keep them around.

We should be at the point where we make a push for the title next season. Players should only get in if they are worth their spot. Even if its as a rotation player in cup games, they have to be able to handle those games well and not look like kids. We aren't a club like Dortmund where we resign ourselves to be a permanent development club because Bayern are too far ahead so need to go down this route, the development route was fine for the position we were in a few years ago but now we're ready to step up IMO. That's why we need to get Sancho. Amad will eventually break through properly, but he's years away from actually being good enough physically for that. We don't just leave a spot open on the hope he'll get there. He'll become a quality squad player in time and then hopefully step up into a starting 11 or key player, just like Foden has recently for City over Sterling. But he's too far away to leave a spot open for that.
 

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Amad looks tiny. I wouldn't want to send him anywhere right now.

Get him on a diet of Greggs vegan sausage rolls and keep him far away from the cloggers in the lower leagues.

If I were a United physio, I'd put him on a weight training program for the next 6 months and write off any chances of him getting into the first team for the foreseeable.
 

sincher

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We need to trim the squad quite a bit in the summer and that will make a difference. I would expect most of De Gea, Romero, Grant, Castro-Pereira, Dalot, Jones, Pereira, Lingard, Levitt, Mata, Mellor and Chong to move on, and perhaps the likes of Williams, Tuanzebe, Matic and James too.

Depending on who comes in that could easily mean promotions into the main squad for Laird and Garner, for example, and more chances for Amad and maybe a few games for Shoretire. We should look at loans for Pellistri and Elanga and probably others.
 

sincher

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Mr. MUJAC said:
There are numerous factors at play.

1. Who will be leaving to create opportunities?
2. Who is going to be bought which reduces opportunities
3. The development of each player at a physical, technical and emotional level
4. What clubs are suitable for loans....90% are not
5. What clubs will actually play our kids
6. The standard of U/23 football in any given season
7. The ability post-COVID to organise friendly games to push the kids on
8. The actual amount of playing time the kids are getting (Williams and Tuanzebe have virtually lost a season)
9. What they will learn as squad players just staying with the first team environment
10. The motivation of each player

That's why Academy development is so difficult. The fact that we get it right in 98% of cases still staggers me.
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The only bit I would question here is the 90% figure in 4. Why do you think so few clubs are suitable?
 

Rood

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Peter van der Gea said:
Dan James is a left forward, not really a right winger, a bit like Rashford. He isn't the best at cutting in on to his left foot to shoot. I also think he's going to grow into more of a Park Ji-Sung utility player rather than a specialist battling it out for a particular spot.

Greenwood, I think, will have more and more time up top, learning directly from Cavani
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I dont disagree but the fact is that James and Greenwood still get most of their games on the right and I dont see that changing much unless others leave so if we signed Sancho then Amad has to go on loan
 

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Rood said:
I dont disagree but the fact is that James and Greenwood still get most of their games on the right and I dont see that changing much unless others leave so if we signed Sancho then Amad has to go on loan
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I think if Sancho is signed then Diallo will be his understudy. Greenwood will rotate with Cavani for the striker's position and then James will be a squad option. I just don't see Greenwood or James being the long term solution and Sancho should be able to handle 90% of games next season with Diallo getting the sub appearances, dead rubbers and some cup games.
 

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If we get Sancho, that'll leave us with 8 wingers (including the youngsters like Elanga, Shoretire, Amad etc.), so we'll definitely need to ship some out.

I can see James leaving permanently, as he's already behind 3 or 4 players this season.

Then maybe loans for Elanga and Pellestri (Don't think he's shown enough at Alaves on loan to come into contention next season). Amad has shown enough to be a rotation player for the next season. Shoretire can continue coming on occasionally or playing cup games as he did this season.

Mejbri is more of a central player, so can get a few games in cups or if Bruno needs a rest.
 

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I would be great if we could send two together to clubs that would actually play them. I’d love to see Hannibal and Amad at an EL level team in a less physical league tearing it up next year. It would be perfect development. What will most likely happen is they will stay here like Williams. Play in case of injury and in the cups. It’s hard to make a mark when your game time is so stop start. I would say the following season we will probably be looking at loans for one or both or them to get a full season of senior football intro their legs if they haven’t meaningfully broken through here.
 

Ludens the Red

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flappyjay said:
After seeing Elanga and Amad have a decent game in our second string last night, I have been asking myself what are going to do with them. They are not ready to start but I think they are ready to start getting decent minutes.

Then there is Pellestri, Shoretire and Hannibal. They are all around the age Rushford and Greenwood started getting chances so it wont be surprising if it's in the back of their minds that they should start getting some minutes too. What does Ole and his staff do, loan is the easy option but they rarely turn out well.
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Any young player we have who we think has a future should be loaned out to the Championship end of. Going anywhere else imo shouldn’t even be entertained anymore.
It’s the perfect league to develop in and you will actually play games.
Proof is in the pudding, look at how Garner has done, Henderson, Lingard and Cleverley previously.
Anytime we send out kids abroad they never seem to play enough games and develop.

The Championship is ruthless. 46 games against all kinds of teams. Wednesday nights at Stoke included. It’ll put some hairs on your chest.
 

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There is a lot of over optimistic stuff written about United's kids. Greenwood is exceptional and he struggles to get consistency in the first two years in the first team, so did Ronaldo! Of the others the only one who is of the same level is Shoretire, and he could go through the same process as Greenwood. Amad is promising, the others are Okish. The returnee Garner will get a place in the squad and we have to wait to see how it goes from there, he has always been highly regarded. That is three including Greenwood, plus maybe Amad ( big maybe).
None of the above except Garner are players equipped to fill the two positions that need reinforcing, a left footed central defender and a no6 who can pass and tackle and follow runners. Forget wingers and CFs these are the two positions that require attention. It will cost £100m plus to fill them with 'City-level' players. That is the budget.
 

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Alot of these players now need game time to get better. I think a lot depends of what signing we make in the summer, but I think all these players would probably be looking at loans if they aren't gonna get regular miniutes here
 

marktan

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charlenefan said:
Way too soon for most of them to be going out on loan. These are the only ones I'd want to be sent out

Laird
Garner - Forest
Levitt
Williams - Southampton/Newcastle
Pellistri
Mengi - Derby

Amad is an interesting one because you can see first team football over in the Bundesliga would see him tear it up but you don't typically let a talent like that go out on loan you keep him and utilise him yourself
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Good post. The club in general has been getting a lot better with loans, especially after the Januzaj fiasco. Garner was moved very quickly to Forest and has excelled, Chong is another one that's been managed well. Tuanzabe a couple of seasons ago at Villa another success, alongside Henderson, Johnstone etc, though we've had success in the past with the likes of Evans and welbeck .

I think the key is active managing from the coaches / transfer staff to find suitable loans. There's no point sending say Diallo to Dortmund as they already have 5 young attackers and he'd never play, which is what happened when Januzaj went there.

Very few are at the technical and physical level of Rashford or Greenwood early on, so these loans really help the youth players get minutes to develop before either returning to United or establishing a career elsewhere. Personally for me Diallo whilst he is technically very good, he needs a lot of coaching on how to play as an attacker, if he's not getting that at the youth level it's probably better for him to go out on loan as you say to somewhere like Bundesliga where there's more space. Even the Championship would help him with a good manager like at Forest rather than sitting on the bench, it's worked well with say Mount at Derby 2 seasons ago.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Rood said:
Well there is Dan James and Greenwood is still playing on the right often so if Sancho came then no point in Amad staying
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(IF we actually buy Sancho):

Dan James won't be preferred to Amad on the right if Amad keeps on improving.

And Greenwood could conceivably start plenty of games up front next season (Cavani, for me, is the obvious starter - but he won't start every game).

The real question is how Pogba and Rashford will be deployed. If either of those (or both) are considered as possible on the right, that would impact Amad's minutes heavily.

But James - no. There's no way James gets minutes over a steadily improving Amad.
 

kundalini

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Elanga - loan, most probably for 2 or 3 seasons, then if he demonstrates he can perform at PL, Serie A, Ligue 1, La Liga or Bundesliga level, then come back to United to compete for mins

Garner - probably another Championship or PL loan, assuming Matic stays

Mejbri - loan to Eredivisie in Netherlands or Jupiler Pro League in Belgium, possibly Championship

Laird - Championship loan, assuming one of Dalot or Williams stays as back-up to Wan-Bissaka

Levitt - loan for another season to a club that will take him, then release unless he has an amazing season

Shoretire - U23s

Amad - first team squad, starts in FA Cup and EFL Cup, PL mins if he performs well in domestic Cup games

Pellistri - watch all his La Liga mins very carefully to see if he might be ready for PL. His performance against Atletico Madrid suggested he could be close. If not quite there, another season on loan in La Liga.

Chong - another season out on loan. Needs a huge improvement if he is to get another chance at United or indeed a contract extension.

The vast majority of our talented youngsters should go out on loan and return when they are ready to compete for PL mins at United, having had a decent season in one of the top 5 European Leagues (PL, Serie A, Bundesliga, La Liga, Ligue 1). We should expect to loan out players until they are 22 or 23. In some instances they will be ready earlier but we shouldn't rush the process.
 
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jeff_goldblum

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Elanga looked like many academy/reserve players do when they get their first team debut, struggled a little with the lack of space and time you get afforded at this level and with more experienced defenders who aren't as easily beaten. Having said that, he made some great runs which his teammates didn't pick out so maybe if he'd had a chance to play with the likes of Fernandes and Pogba in the team he'd have had more of a chance to impress. He shouldn't be written off on that showing.

Diallo looks more comfortable at this level to me, he's very good in tight spaces which helps a lot and he seems a good short passer. My one reservation with him is that if he receives the ball under pressure he tends to be a little risk averse. You often see him turning away from danger and making a sideways or backwards pass instead of pushing forward. Having said that, that's basically how he got the assist so maybe not the worst thing. He should be fighting with James for that squad role on the right.
 

diarm

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I think you play them one at a time, in a strong team against the lower table sides.

It was hard on Amad and Elanga last night because they're were responsible for so much of the attacking play. But put one of them in against a Burnley or Brighton who are more focused on stopping Pogba, Bruno, Rashford and Cavani and they suddenly have way more space to gain confidence.
 
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