Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

2cents · May 12, 2021

bsCallout said:
Slightly more nuanced than that? Because that interview seemed to say as much.

Sorry, it wasn’t apparent to me that your post was in direct response to that video. Are you asking if that is the justification for the proposed Sheikh Jarrah evictions specifically? Or for more broader issues?

Green_Red · May 12, 2021

2cents said:
The rockets are coming from Gaza, not the West Bank.

My mistake

Kopral Jono · May 12, 2021

The Corinthian said:
What's your position on what's happened over the last few days?

Disgusting and cruel and, in the long run, damaging to actual, legitimate Israeli grievances. You can be as pro-Israel as you like but there just isn't a single secular justification for settler colonialism, which is what these evictions ultimately are. Notice the word 'secular' because on paper at least Israel is a secular democracy, albeit one where Judaism is put on a pedestal.

And while I'm at it: I'd like to point out that some of the stuff said on here (and on other social media platforms) with regard to Israel's right to exist is embarrassing. I'm saying this with the full realisation that what's happened over the past few days is indefensible.

Green_Red · May 12, 2021

The UN have to do something about this, it's the reason it was set up in the first place. How can governments wax lyrical about Al-assad and Syria, or Putin and Crimea, and then do nothing about this?

Britain has sold over £400 million worth of arms to Isreal since 2015. No wonder the BBC framed the news story around the rockets being fired from Gaza.

Peter van der Gea · May 12, 2021

Imagine Redcafe was around in the 1930's. I shudder to think about what some of the posts would be.

neverdie · May 12, 2021

Green_Red said:
The UN have to do something about this, it's the reason it was set up in the first place. How can governments wax lyrical about Al-assad and Syria, or Putin and Crimea, and then do nothing about this?

Britain has sold over £400 million worth of arms to Isreal since 2015. No wonder the BBC framed the news story around the rockets being fired from Gaza.

Economics, racism, and strategy. There's a lot of interconnected capital between Western states and Israel. Israel is seen as Western and European. Israel's position is strategically advantageous to the US, UK, and others. Bear in mind that the US and UK supported the apartheid regime in South Africa right up until its dying days for lots of similar reasons.

FootyGirl88 · May 12, 2021

swipe left

RexHamilton · May 12, 2021

I know Israel has its defenders, and I see some legitimate arguments from the Israeli side. However, I think we'll all look back on this "conflict" in decades to come and wonder how the world stood by and allowed the Palestinians to be treated like this.

Sara125 · May 12, 2021

Seeing some shocking scenes on twitter. Saw an air strike collapse a 13 storey building. Not sure how anyone can be on Israel’s side in all this.

Sultan · May 12, 2021

Statement from our local MP Cat Smith this morning

There will be an urgent question asked in the House of Commons at 11:30am today about the current situation in Israel and Palestine. I applied to the ballot to speak and raise the points below but was not successful. Over recent days many constituents have written to me about the ever-deepening crisis so I wanted to share my thoughts here.

I totally condemn the invasion of private Palestinian homes in Jerusalem, the attempts to evict their occupants on the basis of racially-discriminatory laws and the invasion of the Al-Aqsa Mosque. The violence perpetrated by Israeli forces against people at prayer was especially outrageous.

These are not isolated events but symptoms of the policies of settlement expansion and the ongoing effort to alter the demographic make-up of Jerusalem to minimise its Palestinian population. All this activity is a violation of international law - it must cease immediately.

We have once again seen violence effect communities across Palestine and Israel. No party should take action which puts civilians at risk - be that Israeli children needing to shelter from rocket fire or Palestinian residents in Gaza, confined under siege and now once again bombed by Israeli forces. I call on all involved to rapidly de-escalate this crisis and work towards a long term agreement.

I have seen for myself when visiting the region what terrible damage over half a century of ‘temporary’ occupation has done.
Jerusalem is a city holy to three faiths - it must be protected and treasured by all. The need for a solution that delivers freedom, justice and equality for all her people is more urgent than ever.

Now is the time for action not words from the UK government and wider international community. The UK has rightfully frequently condemned Israeli settlement expansion and land expropriations in Jerusalem, but condemnation is not enough. To stop these violations of international law we need concrete political actions.

A good first step would be to implement the policy adopted by the most recent Labour Party conference. This resolved to adhere to an ethical policy on all the UK’s trade with Israel, in particular by applying international law on settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories and stopping any arms trade with Israel that is used in violation of the human rights of Palestinians.

I have written to the Foreign Secretary to make these demands and will seek to raise them in Parliament.

Suv666 · May 12, 2021

Palestinian kids throws stone at tank. Shot dead. Centrists - 'Another life lost in Israel-Palestine conflict when will both sides stop fighting'

ZupZup · May 12, 2021

Kopral Jono said:
And while I'm at it: I'd like to point out that some of the stuff said on here (and on other social media platforms) with regard to Israel's right to exist is embarrassing.

What comments and what is embarrassing? Personally, I don't believe Israel has an inherent 'right to exist'. What does that even mean? I don't believe any state does.

Did Yugoslavia have a right to exist? East Germany maybe?

Sultan · May 12, 2021

The Israeli influence in our local politics is so entrenched our local MP told me right up to about 10 years previously you would need a miracle to become an MP if you were not part of the friends of Israel lobby group. The majority of the MP's do still belong to the group, however, the rules are now slightly relaxed.

Besides a very few MP's there will unlikely much action from UK/EU/US governments. Basically, all the condemnations will arrive after the Israeli military has done its work.

Kopral Jono · May 12, 2021

FootyGirl88 said:
swipe left

I get that she's angry, justifiably so, but I don't even know where to begin on this. The region is nowhere near the top when it comes to oil reserves for starters, let alone 'more oil reserves than anywhere else'.

calodo2003 · May 12, 2021

Kopral Jono said:
I get that she's angry, justifiably so, but I don't even know where to begin on this. The region is nowhere near the top when it comes to oil reserves for starters, let alone 'more oil reserves than anywhere else'.

Very much this. Poorly worded when other obvious issues could be discussed.

2cents · May 12, 2021

Kopral Jono said:
I get that she's angry, justifiably so, but I don't even know where to begin on this. The region is nowhere near the top when it comes to oil reserves for starters, let alone 'more oil reserves than anywhere else'.

That whole thing is so dumb it’s like it was written by someone trying to discredit the Palestinian narrative.

The Corinthian · May 12, 2021

Kopral Jono said:
Disgusting and cruel and, in the long run, damaging to actual, legitimate Israeli grievances. You can be as pro-Israel as you like but there just isn't a single secular justification for settler colonialism, which is what these evictions ultimately are. Notice the word 'secular' because on paper at least Israel is a secular democracy, albeit one where Judaism is put on a pedestal.

And while I'm at it: I'd like to point out that some of the stuff said on here (and on other social media platforms) with regard to Israel's right to exist is embarrassing. I'm saying this with the full realisation that what's happened over the past few days is indefensible.

Thanks for your response. I agree with the full paragraph totally.

The second half - I can't comment on other poster's behalf with what they mean, but there has been a clear dialogue, for over a century on Israel's right to a land and on what basis. Do you not think Palestine had the right to exist as it had done for centuries prior to 1947?

Sweet Square · May 12, 2021

Synco said:
Justifiable or neglectable, not good. That has been repeatedly said, another one two posts below yours now.

It goes on since Monday, and the thread was full of it... hard to believe you've not heard about it (or Israeli airstrikes for that matter) by that time anywhere.

So if I posted that Palestinians have the right to armed struggle anytime since Monday, you would have seen this as pro Hamas ?

Maybe you need to stop being so paranoid.

Raoul · May 12, 2021

Green_Red said:
The UN have to do something about this, it's the reason it was set up in the first place. How can governments wax lyrical about Al-assad and Syria, or Putin and Crimea, and then do nothing about this?

Britain has sold over £400 million worth of arms to Isreal since 2015. No wonder the BBC framed the news story around the rockets being fired from Gaza.

The UN is feckless in situations like this as long as the security council states can’t agree on policy.

Sultan · May 12, 2021

@Amir @Kopral Jono

Hope you keep safe and life quickly gets back to normality for both sets of people.

Can you kindly explain to those interested why the Palestinians are being evicted to make room for settlers: Is there not enough room in Israel, is it demographics, security?

Where are the majority of these settlers coming from in the world?

Is it as simple as claiming to be of Jewish descent to be fast-tracked to settle in Israel given a house and state aid and are these settlers being shifted to take over jobs the Palestinians were doing previously?

Listening to some of the settlers they seem very fundamentalists in their beliefs and approach.

Kaos · May 12, 2021

Raoul said:
The UN is feckless in situations like this as long as the security council states can’t agree on policy.

Yep.

The big dogs at the UNSC will just veto the bejesus out of anything that condemns their vassal states, and by proxy their own regional interests - see Russia/China with Assad and of course the US with Israel. The whole thing is hopelessly futile when it comes to establishing some form of unilateral consensus.

sun_tzu · May 12, 2021

Raoul said:
The UN is feckless in situations like this as long as the security council states can’t agree on policy.

As long as the permanent members have a veto the security council is a pretty useless approach to many international conflicts as there is hardly a sutuation in the workd where at least one of the five has not got a vested interest in some way ... and given Russian and Chinese relations with the USA then thats pretty much guaranteed that its going to be hard to get it though - the best you can hope for is your geopolitical rivals abstain if you cut a side deal over something else

Sultan · May 12, 2021

Where's @Fearless?

He only ever logged on when there was an issue in Israel.

Hope you're well and safe mate.

VorZakone · May 12, 2021

Let me ask this to the pro-Israeli side: what would you like the Palestinians to do?

If you think it's fair that they stand up for their own interests, how should they do it in order for you to say "fair enough, there is nothing for me to condemn the Palestine side".

I'm getting the impression that y'all expect the Palestinians to just do nothing at all and let the Israeli's walk over them.

Kaos · May 12, 2021

Sultan said:
Where's @Fearless?

He only ever logged on when there was an issue in Israel.

Hope you're well and safe mate.

Please don't awaken him from his forum slumber. There's only so many 'cuntastine' jibes and whataboutisms I could stomach before repeatedly slamming my head into my monitor.

esmufc07 · May 12, 2021

It’s just a sad situation all round with no end in sight. Problem is it’s exactly what Hamas and the extreme right in Israel want. For Hamas it helps to delegitimise Israel and for the extremists in Israel it allows the conflict to continue and the opportunity for more land grabs. Not sure how you solve it at all, if it ever will be solved. Hamas don’t give a shit about Palestinians, they just want to see Israel destroyed. Sad all round. Just hope these tensions can be escalated quickly before evolved into an all out war. Some heartbreaking images coming out.

2cents · May 12, 2021

Sultan said:
@Amir @Kopral Jono

Hope you keep safe and life quickly gets back to normality for both sets of people.

Can you kindly explain to those interested why the Palestinians are being evicted to make room for settlers: Is there not enough room in Israel, is it demographics, security?

Where are the majority of these settlers coming from in the world?

Is it as simple as claiming to be of Jewish descent to be fast-tracked to settle in Israel given a house and state aid and are these settlers being shifted to take over jobs the Palestinians were doing previously?

Listening to some of the settlers they seem very fundamentalists in their beliefs and approach.

Apologies @Sultan as you didn’t ask me, but this is my basic understanding of the issue:

The buildings in question are owned by an organization which aims to settle Jews in Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem (and I’d assume elsewhere). This organization purchased the buildings/land in the 80s (I think) from two Jewish Trusts which owned the land originally going back to the 19th century. From 1948-1967 East Jerusalem was occupied by Jordan and the Jewish owners and residents were forced to leave. Jordanian authorities subsequently used the buildings to house Palestinian refugees coming from the other direction. After Israel conquered East Jerusalem in 1967, they transferred ownership back to the two Jewish Trusts, and an arrangement was apparently eventually reached whereby the Palestinian residents would be permitted to stay indefinitely in exchange for rent and recognition of the owners. However it seems the Palestinian families dispute aspects of this, or claim they agreed to it under false pretenses. Anyway, the settler organization which subsequently purchased the buildings/land from the trusts is seeking to have the families evicted on the basis that they have not paid rent in decades and that they have extended/modified the properties without legal authority.

The moral (and probably legal) problem for Israel is that while the state has a process whereby Jewish owners of land which came under Jordanian control in 1948 could reclaim that land following 1967, no such process exists for Arab owners of land who were dispossessed and forced out of Israel in 1948, and who subsequently came under Israeli control in 1967 - such as the residents in question in this case. So a loophole exists and is being exploited by organizations with a particular ideological agenda, stamped with the legal authority of the state. And as the organization’s agenda does not significantly conflict with the state’s interest, and in fact may be understood as serving it depending on your outlook, Israeli authorities are happy to acquiesce. The case, then, has acquired a symbolic significance beyond the immediate practicalities.

As for the settlers themselves, in this case I would assume they are extremely ideologically driven, given the environment in which they seem determined to embed themselves in.

*(edit): loophole is the wrong term here. It’s an unequal law being used to enforce what it is essentially designed for - advance the Jewish presence across the land.

Annihilate Now! · May 12, 2021

Dan_F said:
I had the news on in the background last night, and there was nothing on this till 10.20 (20 minutes of other stuff beforehand). Even then it was a 3 minute segment and very much framed as, these are the the Hamas rockets being fired into Israel, then worked backwards to what happened before that.

From the BBC News headline story at the moment:

The deadly exchange of fire between Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip and the Israeli military has escalated significantly, with the UN fearing a "full-scale war".

Click to expand...

More than 1,000 rockets have now been fired by Palestinian militants over 38 hours, Israel said, most at Tel Aviv.

Israel has carried out hundreds of air strikes, destroying two tower blocks in Gaza on Tuesday and Wednesday.

At least 43 Palestinians and six Israelis have been killed since Monday.

That includes 13 Palestinian children caught up in the conflict.

In what other story anywhere in the world would the death of children be in the 4th paragraph?

Kaos · May 12, 2021

esmufc07 said:
It’s just a sad situation all round with no end in sight. Problem is it’s exactly what Hamas and the extreme right in Israel want. For Hamas it helps to delegitimise Israel and for the extremists in Israel it allows the conflict to continue and the opportunity for more land grabs. Not sure how you solve it at all, if it ever will be solved. Hamas don’t give a shit about Palestinians, they just want to see Israel destroyed. Sad all round. Just hope these tensions can be escalated quickly before evolved into an all out war. Some heartbreaking images coming out.

You're right about the situation being mutually beneficial for both Israel and Hamas, but the only way it could be solved is if the those with the balance of power have the appetite to do so. Right now that's the United States, and so long as it continues to back Israel to the hilt when it comes to its settlement colonisation program, the cycle of violence continues.

Sweet Square · May 12, 2021

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The Corinthian · May 12, 2021

Ali Dia · May 12, 2021

Sweet Square said:
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Nothing to see here. The good guys strike again.

2cents · May 12, 2021

VorZakone said:
Let me ask this to the pro-Israeli side: what would you like the Palestinians to do?

If you think it's fair that they stand up for their own interests, how should they do it in order for you to say "fair enough, there is nothing for me to condemn the Palestine side".

I'm getting the impression that y'all expect the Palestinians to just do nothing at all and let the Israeli's walk over them.

I think Palestinians have a right to resist oppression, violently if necessary. However I believe the means they have chosen have often been counter-productive. And there is obviously stuff to “condemn” but that’s a less interesting conversation to me.

I’ve banged this drum a few times on here, but with the two-state solution dead (if it ever lived) I would like to see a mass Palestinian campaign to be granted Israeli citizenship. It’s a simple message which I think would resonate very well among Western publics and perhaps help shift the terms of the debate away from “occupation” and “terrorism.” However there are currently so many obstacles to such a movement it’s unforseeable for the time being.

Jippy · May 12, 2021

Annihilate Now! said:
From the BBC News headline story at the moment:

In what other story anywhere in the world would the death of children be in the 4th paragraph?

It's a pretty straight up article and the structuring of the story is normal, with the threat of 'full-scale war' quote the new info and obvious lead angle. Not sure how you'd expect it to be written.

Deery · May 12, 2021

I think this puts me firmly in the Joshua corner..

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harms · May 12, 2021

vidic blood & sand said:
You approve of aggression against the Jewish people for occupying a very small area that has huge historical and spiritual significance for them?

What size of an area is a nation allowed to occupy before it becomes frowned upon?

Annihilate Now! · May 12, 2021

Jippy said:
It's a pretty straight up article and the structuring of the story is normal, with the threat of 'full-scale war' quote the new info and obvious lead angle. Not sure how you'd expect it to be written.

Is it? considering most people just read the headline and top line of an article - what would be the takeaway?

After that the story then goes on to detail 3 Israeli deaths with nothing similar about the Palestinian deaths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-57083595

I dunno, might be just tin foil hat stuff after seeing other reports/lack off reporting.

space · May 12, 2021

So happy more people on social media are seeing the truth - probably the biggest shift I've seen in my life. End settler colonialism, end imperialism, end apartheid - Free Palestine!

space · May 12, 2021

Annihilate Now! said:
Is it? considering most people just read the headline and top line of an article - what would be the takeaway?

After that the story then goes on to detail 3 Israeli deaths with nothing similar about the Palestinian deaths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-57083595

I dunno, might be just tin foil hat stuff after seeing other reports/lack off reporting.

No you are right - the BBC has been doing this forever. Anyone who says otherwise is being purposefully blind.

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