fecks sake. This is like that Limmy v Ben Shapiro vid...
... As a reminder, they are fecking trapped in a literal open air prison, where the feck are they meant to evacuate to?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
... As a reminder, they are fecking trapped in a literal open air prison, where the feck are they meant to evacuate to?
Deery
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In one of the most densely populated areas in the world to blow up a tower block they know exactly the hurt that would cause and they’ve blown up schools in the past it’s not new to them.Inside an urban area in which legitimate military targets are consciously placed. These buildings were collateral damage or error (as it seems the orphanage was) or intended (as it seems the tower was).
The horrors are owned by both sides.
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
I am certainly not saying this cycle started with the Hamas rocket attacks. I completely understand the pushback that is necessary due to the abhorrent removal of Palestinians from their homes. I won’t opine further on the irrational escalation of this due to the opportunistic outrage of the more radicalized elements in the region.It's a tough question to answer, but my viewpoint is this - while Hamas are to blame for starting the latest volley of missile strikes between Israel and Gaza, they didn't start this cycle of violence. As has been a recurring theme, this was started with a systemic process of looking to uproot Palestinians from their homes, this time in Sheikh Jarrah, as well as subjecting them to further humiliation in Jerusalem, provoking the (expectedly) radicalised elements of the Palestinian population to hit back with what they deem to be the most effective way, as destructive as it is for them. Its worth remembering that while this all started in the late 40s, Hamas were only formed in 1988, filling in the vacuum to represent an increasingly repressed and desperate Palestinian population, who's resistance prior to the likes of Hamas was largely a secular one taking a far less extreme modus, and one that was systemically sapped thanks to the US' allies like the United States.
I just find it infuriatingly frustrating when the narrative starts with Hamas' rocket attacks. I find it disingenuous and devoid of the context of the whats and whys of everything that's currently happening.
Disingenuousness can also be seen a bit in the response to civilian deaths in Gaza. It’s not like such is unexpected when terror tactics are employed, no matter how or why they are used.
Gehrman
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Well what's the logic then? Keep firing rockets without expectation that they will be targeted?fecks sake. This is like that Limmy v Ben Shapiro vid...
... As a reminder, they are fecking trapped in a literal open air prison, where the feck are they meant to evacuate to?
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rotherham_red
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Never mind that, they've bombed the international media in Gaza too.In one of the most densely populated areas in the world to blow up a tower block they know exactly the hurt that would cause and they’ve blown up schools in the past it’s not new to them.
Foxbatt
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You also can read earlier reports in various news papers including quotes from Israeli sources and ex governor of Gaza ( former Brigadier Gen in IDF) who said that they let Hamas thrive because they wanted to fight the PLO and let Hamas fight the PLO instead of Israel fighting them. He said many times, they did not confiscate their arms nor did they stop them as they were always fighting the PLO. In fact they, Hamas let the IDF know where they are going to fight the PLO and the IDF always let them through.It's a tough question to answer, but my viewpoint is this - while Hamas are to blame for starting the latest volley of missile strikes between Israel and Gaza, they didn't start this cycle of violence. As has been a recurring theme, this was started with a systemic process of looking to uproot Palestinians from their homes, this time in Sheikh Jarrah, as well as subjecting them to further humiliation in Jerusalem, provoking the (expectedly) radicalised elements of the Palestinian population to hit back with what they deem to be the most effective way, as destructive as it is for them. Its worth remembering that while this all started in the late 40s, Hamas were only formed in 1988, filling in the vacuum to represent an increasingly repressed and desperate Palestinian population, who's resistance prior to the likes of Hamas was largely a secular one taking a far less extreme modus, and one that was systemically sapped thanks to the US' allies like the United States.
I just find it infuriatingly frustrating when the narrative starts with Hamas' rocket attacks. I find it disingenuous and devoid of the context of the whats and whys of everything that's currently happening.
This is exactly why they wanted to get rid of the PLO and let Hamas come up so they then have an excuse to keep the Palestinians subjugated.
Foxbatt
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An Israeli killed Ishaq Rabin.Well I'm short on historical examples. Dalai Lama is well and good but he never got Tibet back for obvious reasons(5 mil population vs 1,5 bil)
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
I understand why the rocket tactics are used & somewhat agree with their use, but it does smack a bit of disingenuousness when civilian deaths are so outraged over when the resultant response causes some.That sounds a lot like you're saying, well if they fight back then civilian deaths are their own fault. They can't realistically move those rockets anywhere else.
While being horrific, these deaths are not inevitable. When tactics like these are employed, collateral damage occurs.
Kaos
Full Member
I don't disagree and I'm not absolving Hamas of their role in inviting carnage to the people of Gaza, but as with similar conflicts in the region there seems to be a selective focus on the symptom, not the cause behind the cycle of violence. I just wish there was a fraction of the condemnation from the media and the West towards the events that preceded this as opposed to honing now with the virtue signalling behind the selective narrative of Hamas terrorising the poor people of Israel and putting Palestinians at risk.I am certainly not saying this cycle started with the Hamas rocket attacks. I completely understand the pushback that is necessary due to the abhorrent removal of Palestinians from their homes. I won’t opine further on the irrational escalation of this due to the opportunistic outrage of the more radicalized elements in the region.
Disingenuousness can also be seen a bit in the response to civilian deaths in Gaza. It’s not like such is unexpected when terror tactics are employed, no matter how or why they are used.
Bingo. They created their own perpetual boogeyman.This is exactly why they wanted to get rid of the PLO and let Hamas come up so they then have an excuse to keep the Palestinians subjugated.
The Corinthian
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You know Hamas and the people of Gaza aren’t the same right?Well what's the logic then? Keep firing rockets without expectation that they will be targeted?
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
Objectively, if there is a legitimate military target of significance in a civilian tower block in a foreign city, what would expect an opposing force to do?In one of the most densely populated areas in the world to blow up a tower block they know exactly the hurt that would cause and they’ve blown up schools in the past it’s not new to them.
Kaos
Full Member
Yep. I've always said that Hamas and the Israeli government have been unusual bedfellows. Peace and stability do not suit either of their respective agendas. Gaza can burn, and the rockets can fire over the skies of Haifa all the while Netanyahu grins as the focus is off his corruption scandal and election woes while Hamas' leaders preach from their luxury premises in the Emirates.You also can read earlier reports in various news papers including quotes from Israeli sources and ex governor of Gaza ( former Brigadier Gen in IDF) who said that they let Hamas thrive because they wanted to fight the PLO and let Hamas fight the PLO instead of Israel fighting them. He said many times, they did not confiscate their arms nor did they stop them as they were always fighting the PLO. In fact they, Hamas let the IDF know where they are going to fight the PLO and the IDF always let them through.
This is exactly why they wanted to get rid of the PLO and let Hamas come up so they then have an excuse to keep the Palestinians subjugated.
rotherham_red
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I'm not the galaxy brain telling someone to evacuate from a place that they can't even leave.Well what's the logic then? Keep firing rockets without expectation that they will be targeted?
How about the international community actually grows a backbone for once and forces Israel to back down. How about they force the peace by insisting upon breaking the systems and structures they have built up to perpetuate the settler colonialism that ensures that the Palestinians are subjugated in their own lands? How about Israel not forcing out people from their homes so that Avi the Brooklynite can have his holiday home? How about Israel not desecrating the third holiest site in Islam during the holiest month of the Islamic year?
Before speaking on Hamas, let's consider the actual nation state's role in this shitshow. Especially since the vast majority of these rockets are intercepted and don't even land in the country. Or that the rockets themselves are mainly nothing more than souped up home brew fireworks, and certainly not the military hardware that "the most moral army in the world" possesses.
Gehrman
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No but if they keep firing rockets into Israel and they know Israel is going to blow up those rocket launchers what is the expectation?You know Hamas and the people of Gaza aren’t the same right?
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
It certainly would be refreshing to see a more balanced narrative on the preceding events that portrayed the true guilt & error of both sides in this issue.I don't disagree and I'm not absolving Hamas of their role in inviting carnage to the people of Gaza, but as with similar conflicts in the region there seems to be a selective focus on the symptom, not the cause behind the cycle of violence. I just wish there was a fraction of the condemnation from the media and the West towards the events that preceded this as opposed to honing now with the virtue signalling behind the selective narrative of Hamas terrorising the poor people of Israel and putting Palestinians at risk.
Gehrman
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I would completely agree with specifcally the US taking a hard approach to Israel's transgressions, so to speak to keep them on a leash.I'm not the galaxy brain telling someone to evacuate from a place that they can't even leave.
How about the international community actually grows a backbone for once and forces Israel to back down. How about they force the peace by insisting upon breaking the systems and structures they have built up to perpetuate the settler colonialism that ensures that the Palestinians are subjugated in their own lands? How about Israel not forcing out people from their homes so that Avi the Brooklynite can have his holiday home? How about Israel not desecrating the third holiest site in Islam during the holiest month of the Islamic year?
Before speaking on Hamas, let's consider the actual nation state's role in this shitshow. Especially since the vast majority of these rockets are intercepted and don't even land in the country. Or that the rockets themselves are mainly nothing more than souped up home brew fireworks, and certainly not the military hardware that "the most moral army in the world" possesses.
Deery
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It turned out there was no guns in the schools they blew up.Objectively, if there is a legitimate military target of significance in a civilian tower block in a foreign city, what would expect an opposing force to do?
I’d like to know for certain what I was bombing was a legitimate target anyway that’s for sure.
The Corinthian
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What control do the people of Gaza have in this situation? What do you think they can do? You really are clueless sometimes.No but if they keep firing rockets into Israel and they know Israel is going to blow up those rocket launchers what is the expectation?
Kaos
Full Member
This is what the cynic in me ponders. It seems awfully convenient to Israel to justify its airstrikes with an insistence that they're only targeting military positions and doing so with a view to minimise casualties. Why exactly should we take their word for it considering how all too eager they've been to perpetually dehumanise the Palestinians everyday? Why should we hence believe that concern for Palestinian 'collateral damage' is suddenly a concern for them? Its not like Joey B or any of their allies will scrutinise those claims.It turned out there was no guns in the schools they blew up.
I’d like to know for certain what I was bombing was a legitimate target anyway that’s for sure.
If population density wasn't an issue, do you think they would move their rocket launchers to fields where the Israelis could easily see and destroy them ? Of course not. They would remain hidden among buildings and the people who live in those buildings. More broadly, you would have to believe Hamas leadership have an actual strategy for firing the rockets in the first place. They know that the only conceivable positive result for them would be greater global public outrage over Israeli actions, which generally wouldn't happen without the spectacle of mass carnage.That sounds a lot like you're saying, well if they fight back then civilian deaths are their own fault. They can't realistically move those rockets anywhere else.
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Gehrman
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Which again puts some responsibility on Hamas. It's kind of naive to expect Israel to just wait for Hamas to run out of ammo.What control do the people of Gaza have in this situation? What do you think they can do? You really are clueless sometimes.
it's really not expensive to build bomb shelters either.
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calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
‘Guns’ aren’t the only legitimate military targets out there. There’s quite a bit that is involved in military infrastructure.It turned out there was no guns in the schools they blew up.
I’d like to know for certain what I was bombing was a legitimate target anyway that’s for sure.
All care should be taken in ascertaining targets, no doubt.
Deery
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Well put, I always take it with a pinch of salt when I hear the Israeli army are bombing a military target that turned out to be something very valuable to the Palestinians.This is what the cynic in me ponders. It seems awfully convenient to Israel to justify its airstrikes with an insistence that they're only targeting military positions and doing so with a view to minimise casualties. Why exactly should we take their word for it considering how all too eager they've been to perpetually dehumanise the Palestinians everyday? Why should we hence believe that concern for Palestinian 'collateral damage' is suddenly a concern for them? Its not like Joey B or any of their allies will scrutinise those claims.
lefty_jakobz
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They have killed 4 kids playing football on the beach back in 2014, one rocket fired and a couple of the boys were still moving so another was fired to ‘make sure’...unfortunately for Israel the worlds media was stationed in hotels along the beach and watched in horror what had happened. Guess how much attention that got? Yep not much.Never mind that, they've bombed the international media in Gaza too.
rotherham_red
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I remember that well - sickening.They have killed 4 kids playing football on the beach back in 2014, one rocket fired and a couple of the boys were still moving so another was fired to ‘make sure’...unfortunately for Israel the worlds media was stationed in hotels along the beach and watched in horror what had happened. Guess how much attention that got? Yep not much.
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
You don’t think that Israel is causing the most damage it could inflict on Gaza militarily, do you? They are showing severe discrimination in their use of force. That cannot be debated.This is what the cynic in me ponders. It seems awfully convenient to Israel to justify its airstrikes with an insistence that they're only targeting military positions and doing so with a view to minimise casualties. Why exactly should we take their word for it considering how all too eager they've been to perpetually dehumanise the Palestinians everyday? Why should we hence believe that concern for Palestinian 'collateral damage' is suddenly a concern for them? Its not like Joey B or any of their allies will scrutinise those claims.
Their continued dehumanization policies are another matter entirely. Unfortunately, widespread societal suffering in a mass scale doesn’t have the same effect in the media as ordnance exploding or rockets being fired. It’s an absolute shame that more consistent, persistent, ongoing broad media campaigns that reach a wider audience that expose the horror in the region aren’t effective or influential.
lefty_jakobz
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Unfortunately there is no msm in the West that isnt sympathetic to the Israeli narrative.You don’t think that Israel is causing the most damage it could inflict on Gaza militarily, do you? They are showing severe discrimination in their use of force. That cannot be debated.
Their continued dehumanization policies are another matter entirely. Unfortunately, widespread societal suffering in a mass scale doesn’t have the same effect in the media as ordnance exploding or rockets being fired. It’s an absolute shame that more consistent, persistent, ongoing broad media campaigns that reach a wider audience that expose the horror in the region aren’t effective or influential.
In the UK all of our papers and tv are owned by 5 companies whom all happen to have Israeli interests at their heart
Smores
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Agree on both points. For me blaming Hamas for Israel causing civilian deaths takes a very limited view of the situation.If population density wasn't an issue, do you think they would move their rocket launchers to fields where the Israelis could easily see and destroy them ? Of course not. They would remain hidden among buildings and the people who live in those buildings. More broadly, you would have to believe Hamas leadership have an actual strategy of firing the rockets in the first place. They know that the only conceivable positive result for them would be greater global public outrage over Israeli actions, which generally wouldn't happen without the spectacle of mass carnage.
The only relevant questions are whether the response is proportional and necessary, whether policy can defuse the tensions and what peaceful forms of protest do the Palestinians have open to them as an alternative. All of those are questions for one side that we know have no interest in de-escalation.
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
1. Is this actually true? Some Palestinians are being removed for such? If so, fecking hell.I'm not the galaxy brain telling someone to evacuate from a place that they can't even leave.
How about the international community actually grows a backbone for once and forces Israel to back down. How about they force the peace by insisting upon breaking the systems and structures they have built up to perpetuate the settler colonialism that ensures that the Palestinians are subjugated in their own lands? How about Israel not forcing out people from their homes so that Avi the Brooklynite can have his holiday home? How about Israel not desecrating the third holiest site in Islam during the holiest month of the Islamic year?
Before speaking on Hamas, let's consider the actual nation state's role in this shitshow. Especially since the vast majority of these rockets are intercepted and don't even land in the country. Or that the rockets themselves are mainly nothing more than souped up home brew fireworks, and certainly not the military hardware that "the most moral army in the world" possesses.
2. Resultant effects of weapons trumps intent or will?
Dr. Dwayne
Self proclaimed tagline king.
Personally, I kind of expect Mossad to put on some dresses and start doing what they do best: assassinate their enemies.Objectively, if there is a legitimate military target of significance in a civilian tower block in a foreign city, what would expect an opposing force to do?
Bombing a large tower block to rubble is punitive and vengeful.
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
Don’t think it’s ‘blaming Hamas,’ it’s understanding that collateral damage is bound to occur when certain tactics are used.Agree on both points. For me blaming Hamas for Israel causing civilian deaths takes a very limited view of the situation.
The only relevant questions are whether the response is proportional and necessary, whether policy can defuse the tensions and what peaceful forms of protest do the Palestinians have open to them as an alternative. All of those are questions for one side that we know have no interest in de-escalation.
They don't have other tactics available though. What you say is true but in this context it's a bit oblivious because you give the impression that there is an alternative.Don’t think it’s ‘blaming Hamas,’ it’s understanding that collateral damage is bound to occur when certain tactics are used.
Indeed. They could insert their famed special forces to do the work on the ground.Personally, I kind of expect Mossad to put on some dresses and start doing what they do best: assassinate their enemies.
Bombing a large tower block to rubble is punitive and vengeful.
Instead... Israel only uses ground troops in the West Bank... but frequently uses artillery and air strikes in Gaza with 10x the population density. Make it make sense.
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
In a smaller seaside town, no doubt.Personally, I kind of expect Mossad to put on some dresses and start doing what they do best: assassinate their enemies.
Bombing a large tower block to rubble is punitive and vengeful.
It is certainly punitive. There’s also vengeance involved, no doubt, but there’s limited possibilities inside of an area that’s basically a foreign Manhattan.
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Hey, at least she admits to what I was no-so-subtly pointing out last night.
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
I agree with the tactics from mostly a necessity standpoint.They don't have other tactics available though. What you say is true but in this context it's a bit oblivious because you give the impression that there is an alternative.
But tactics like these have consequences.
calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
It’s basically for preservation of the SF operators as well as logistics / reach.Indeed. They could insert their famed special forces to do the work on the ground.
Instead... Israel only uses ground troops in the West Bank... but frequently uses artillery and air strikes in Gaza with 10x the population density. Make it make sense.
It would be like inserting operators into Manhattan at multiple locations simultaneously on the regular.
Realist81
Full Member
Guns aren't the only legitimate military target. Maybe the football was full of nitroglycerine or a bioweapon keyed to only target Jews.They have killed 4 kids playing football on the beach back in 2014, one rocket fired and a couple of the boys were still moving so another was fired to ‘make sure’...unfortunately for Israel the worlds media was stationed in hotels along the beach and watched in horror what had happened. Guess how much attention that got? Yep not much.