Why are English sides dominating in Europe?

Zen86 · May 13, 2021

Withnail said:
I'm getting the impression you haven't even watched the clip.

I'm not arguing with the clip?

Iker Quesadillas · May 13, 2021

GBBQ said:
I don't buy that, of the top 10 most expensive signings ever, only 1 is a transfer to an English club (Pogba to United for less than 50% of the cost of Neymar to PSG). some of these clubs are bankrolled by states or have their debts excused in order to bring in galacticos.

Look at the ballon d'or; since Ronaldo won it in 2008 only one UK based player has made the top 3 and that was Van Dijk. The "best" players are still playing at the glamour clubs.

No club has a better financial leverage than PSG yet for all the stars they have bought they still don't have a champions league to their name. Its down to management, Klopp and Pep have done amazing things at their clubs, Tuchel (who took PSG closest) looks to be getting a tune out of the Chelsea team, Solskjaer has instilled a mindset that sees us believing we can win most games even when we're a goal down. Rogers has kept Leicester fighting for CL after their improbable win under Ranieri, Bielsa is doing great things with Leeds and even 9th place Everton have a manager who won the CL 3 times.

So it's not money, it's management. It just so happens that the best managers in the world, mostly foreign, manage in the PL. For free.

Withnail · May 13, 2021

Zen86 said:
I'm not arguing with the clip?

I've been discussing what Neville said with the other poster. You then interjected. I assumed you knew the context initially.

lefty_jakobz · May 13, 2021

sglowrider said:

English sides are dominating because they have more money than any other league. If you want to criticise the likes of PSG’s Chelsea’s and City’s of the game, look at the EPL.

150m for the team that finished 17th in the league, when £20m on a player to sit on the bench no wonder football is fkd

bsCallout · May 13, 2021

Because it's ENGERLANDDD!

Takes the best bits from around the world and make it their own.

We love foreigners(when they play for our team) and we use them to make our country good at something.

Thank you foreign investors, foreign players, foreign managers. You're all English now.

mu4c_20le · May 13, 2021

Iker Quesadillas said:
Chelsea being good this year is part of the odds I am referring to, as well as the money.

The PL sent four teams to the CL. One didn't do its job (United) and two weren't having great seasons. But Chelsea can afford to fire their manager halfway through the season and hire one of the most promising managers in the world to take over. He came in, improved them, and now they're in a final.

Chelsea hadn't been to a semifinal in ages, and we don't know when they'll play another one. So, like I said, you need good-to-great PL teams to have one good season. Hardly abnormal, at least not yet.

Ok, but the PL has always sent four teams to the CL. You act as if this is a recent thing. The fact remains that had you and Barca spent the 200-300m more wisely, then most likely you'd be the ones dominating Europe right now, because the pandemic has affected everyone. City are nervy bottlers in the CL and Chelsea weren't anything special. So like I said, you guys were spending as if the world was ending and ironically it almost did, and had you spent better you'd be the top dogs right now.

romufc · May 13, 2021

tomaldinho1 said:
I'd agree with this in that there are actually very few 'proven' top level managers and most are in the PL. I also don't think the PL is even that good this year, football as a whole has struggled due to the fixture lists and covid, if you picked the top four from the PL based off squad depth & luck with injuries, you'd basically get City, United/Chelsea and one other (probably not Leicester which I think is testament to Rodgers, maybe Spurs or Liverpool), I don't think you'd find any City, United, Chelsea fans saying their respective managers are reinventing the wheel (i.e. City are obviously happy to have won the league but also would have been disappointed not to have won it).

I do think the weakness of the La Liga/Serie A teams coincided with the fact clubs, as soon as covid hit, became focused on minimising losses. Unless you are City, Chelsea or PSG...no coincidence they made up 3/4 semi finalists it would be super high risk to appoint an expensive manager and then you have to back him, there is a definite trend of clubs appointing former players without elite level experience right now - Lampard, Ole, Arteta, Pirlo, Xavi apparently waiting in the wings at Barca. I think it'll become more and more common because it makes so much sense; supporters are more patient, managers less likely to want to/be able to move and they are much cheaper.

Exactly. Even City, I know alot of people think they are some special team, this season haven't been that great if you think about it. The City of 18/19 was different class. The Chelsea team is above average you would say.

The Manutd team cannot assert itself onto an opposition because it lacks midfield dominance. I mean everyone was rating the PSG team but even we beat them so I do not think there is any special team around Europe

The PL is where is is because of the managers. The managers are being hired because there is no elite manager out there. I cannot think of any available manager right now that you think yeah he's special I will have him.

Bayern have got Nagglesman but ofcourse he will win the league next year, almost any manager can win the league in Germany with Bayern so again he won't really be tested.

GBBQ · May 13, 2021

Iker Quesadillas said:
So it's not money, it's management. It just so happens that the best managers in the world, mostly foreign, manage in the PL. For free.

I never said it wasn’t important. I just said the differentiator is that currently the best managers are in the PL. how is money a deciding factor when all the top teams have it? Are Madrid and PSG plucky underdogs working on a shoestring budget??

Gonçalo Motta · May 13, 2021

Mainly because the usual european giants are in a downfall.

Both RM and Barcelona are a shadow of the teams they used to be, this Juventus side is weak af and PSG team is great on paper but it still doesn't have what it takes to make that final step.

On the other hand, the English teams either kept improving or maintain an high level.

I still believe this English sides are a few levels below the peak versions of BM, RM or Barcelona of this last decade though.

giorno · May 13, 2021

Thunderhead said:
eh? apart from the first 30 mins in the first leg they were easily the better team, created more, nullified Naymar in both legs, stopped Mbappe in the first leg, didn't concede a shot on goal in the second leg and you're saying they were lucky!

First leg, one goal was a cross that went in, the other a free kick that went through the barrier. Second leg, the first goal came after a blocked shot that fell perfectly to mahrez, Marquinhos hit the bar from 5 yards out and Di Maria missed an open goal by inches...

Iker Quesadillas · May 13, 2021

mu4c_20le said:
Ok, but the PL has always sent four teams to the CL. You act as if this is a recent thing.

The quality used to be worse. For a long time, one of those four teams was a semi-broke Arsenal.

GBBQ said:
I never said it wasn’t important. I just said the differentiator is that currently the best managers are in the PL.

The managers you mentioned included Bielsa (who is not in Europe), Ancelotti (who has not really done anything at Everton), and Rodgers (who has never done anything in Europe, including when he managed Liverpool). Ole has not really done much in the Champions League and, while I think he's doing a good job at United, he is not really one of the top managesr in the world. Guardiola has been at City for five years and this is the only time he's gotten them past QFs. Two years ago, when the PL had four finalists for the CL/EL, the managers were Klopp (world-class), Pochettino (not quite), Emery (not), and Sarri (not).

I don't think the record supports 'the managers being the difference.'

how is money a deciding factor when all the top teams have it?

Because the money (both the one made through the league and the one fed through foreign owners) allows the PL to have more top teams. The more top teams you have the better the odds are that you will "dominate" in Europe.

Ekeke · May 13, 2021

Money yes, but also the use of it. Madrid and Barcelona's spending over the past 5 or 6 seasons or so has been very questionable although I would say Madrid have spent a lot on Brazilian potential and in the next several years that might pay off. I can see that happening at least with Vinicius. But right now most of them arent ready to deliver in europe. With Barcelona they have Pedri but other than that I'm not sure what they have will develop a great deal from what they're doing now.

Mark_Barca · May 13, 2021

People go on about money etc which obviously helps but it's often forgotten how much luck is involved in cup competitions. Nearly every single winner/finalist has benefited from luck or some shocking referee calls.

City vs Dortmund - Two shocking decisions went against Dortmund
Chelsea vs Atletico - Atletico denied clear penalty and red card to Azi
United vs Milan - Kessie goal ruled out

Considering VAR is available and to have some shocking decisions this season, is absurd.

Poborsky's hair · May 13, 2021

People underestimate the power of money in the EPL. It has the most money and while PL top teams always had top players, now there is enough money to have great squads so they can sustain the overwhelming pressure in the league and be competitive in Europe.

Also Ronaldo and Messi are past their peak and their teams are in decline also thanks to their stupid wage structures which will mean they will struggle for another 5 years to recover.

Also Europa league is a second tier cup competition where too big teams play wider squads and don't take it too seriously or at least I always had a notion of that but now league competitions being dominated by one or two teams teams who survived there can focus more on that cup, hence allmost all english finals.

Next year it can be different because it's still cup competitions and the domestic competition will be as fierce as ever but I think current climate suits big squads more than ever..

Sayros · May 13, 2021

I don't see English teams as dominating to be honest, I thought the Spanish teams did for a while, mainly Real Madrid with their constant European conquests, but it was following a Barcelona period of dominance as well. In England, there really hasn't been a team that's had a stranglehold on the Champion's League in the way Madrid has.

The English league though is definitely the dominant one with their TV revenue, and I do think there's a point to having these great managers around as well. But leagues go through ups and downs, I believe the TV rights were already higher in England but they didn't dominate in the 2010's as much.

Poborsky's hair · May 13, 2021

Mark_Barca said:
People go on about money etc which obviously helps but it's often forgotten how much luck is involved in cup competitions. Nearly every single winner/finalist has benefited from luck or some shocking referee calls.

City vs Dortmund - Two shocking decisions went against Dortmund
Chelsea vs Atletico - Atletico denied clear penalty and red card to Azi
United vs Milan - Kessie goal ruled out

Considering VAR is available and to have some shocking decisions this season, is absurd.

In general I agree and it's true, after all we remember that semi's was it when Chelsea was criminally disavantaged by their referee who never had a shot later against your team. Yes small margins but both ways, we should take it as it is and longterm the trend is starting to show I reckon.

But yeah we can have discussion next year when the luck is ridden by other non English teams in Europe but the odds are clearly favouring English teams now..

Thunderhead · May 13, 2021

giorno said:
First leg, one goal was a cross that went in, the other a free kick that went through the barrier. Second leg, the first goal came after a blocked shot that fell perfectly to mahrez, Marquinhos hit the bar from 5 yards out and Di Maria missed an open goal by inches...

That's just football, did you watch the games? If you did you can't honestly believe that City were lucky

giorno · May 13, 2021

Thunderhead said:
That's just football, did you watch the games? If you did you can't honestly believe that City were lucky

It was an even tie and every single bounce went city's way

That's what i call luck

Thunderhead · May 13, 2021

giorno said:
It was an even tie and every single bounce went city's way

That's what i call luck

Absolute rubbish, the second game 5 shots on target v 0, both hit the woodwork, City were by far the better team over the 2 legs, more shots on target, more big chances created, you make your own luck, PSG defensive deficiency can't mask the fact that city were by far and away the better team

Wolf1992 · May 13, 2021

romufc said:
Its quite funny money is being mentioned as the key factor.

Yes the PL has more money but he likes of Barca, Real, Juve, Inter, Milan and PSG have spent the same amounts as some of the PL clubs. They pay some ridiculous wages as well.

The biggest thing is managers. The PL has the best managers which is the reason English teams are dominating.

Juve have a manger who has never managed before
Barca have a failed Everton manager.

Just have a look at Chelsea for example, looked really mediocre under Lampard, as soon as a better manager took over, they look a different prospect.

Money is still the first reason.

Pep is managing City because of money, unless you think he is there cause he always loved City's rich history in English football.
Liverpool took Klopp from Dortmund cause they offered him 3 times more money than what he was earning in Germany.

If money is well spent EPL might dominate even more.
And let's not forget that EPL mid table teams can outspend/outbid all teams out there except RM,Barcelona,Bayern,Juventus, and PSG.

romufc · May 14, 2021

Wolf1992 said:
Money is still the first reason.

Pep is managing City because of money, unless you think he is there cause he always loved City's rich history in English football.
Liverpool took Klopp from Dortmund cause they offered him 3 times more money than what he was earning in Germany.

If money is well spent EPL might dominate even more.
And let's not forget that EPL mid table teams can outspend/outbid all teams out there except RM,Barcelona,Bayern,Juventus, and PSG.

Ofcourse money is the reason but its not the sole reason.

You say Pep is managing city cause of money, thats true but don't think that Neymar is at PSG because of sporting reasons and not money.

I mean that's not the only reason Klopp took over because he could have got the same money elsewhere, are you trying to tell me Barca, Real, Juve won't pay the same wages for the manager? I mean the highest paid manager is Simoeone...

Finally, this thread is not about why English football dominates, its English sides dominating in Europe. When was the last time a mid table team done well in Europe?

Wolf1992 · May 14, 2021

romufc said:
Ofcourse money is the reason but its not the sole reason.

You say Pep is managing city cause of money, thats true but don't think that Neymar is at PSG because of sporting reasons and not money.

I mean that's not the only reason Klopp took over because he could have got the same money elsewhere, are you trying to tell me Barca, Real, Juve won't pay the same wages for the manager? I mean the highest paid manager is Simoeone...

Finally, this thread is not about why English football dominates, its English sides dominating in Europe. When was the last time a mid table team done well in Europe?

No mid-table team is going to dominate Europe, but better teams give you a better competence for a league, which helps to perform better in Europe.
Mid table teams in England have way more money than mid table teams in the rest of european leagues... that's why right now, the EPL is the best league.

In the 90s EPL teams didn't have the money they have now, and the league was monopolized by Man Utd, and eventually Arsenal, but they struggle a bit in Europe as the competence they had locally wasn't good enough to prepare them for a high level european stage...the same thing that is happening right now to Serie A.

Stacks · May 14, 2021

André Dominguez said:
Because other leagues can't compete at the moment against a very good and strong EPL marketing which gives english clubs a even higher financial leverage?

the Tifo video on Bayern suggests they are higher than us on the deloitte money list and are making big moves commercially

André Dominguez · May 14, 2021

Stacks said:
the Tifo video on Bayern suggests they are higher than us on the deloitte money list and are making big moves commercially

As I said in another post, you also have to look at the league as a whole, and every EPL club has good transfer funds, which makes the internal competition higher than other league, which makes every team delivers their A game every week. Also, you have hired a some of the best techcnical staff in the world, which boosts available talent even more.

In other leagues, two thirds of the clubs are struggling to pay their bills, let alone manage to hire players above 4/5M €.

Iker Quesadillas · May 14, 2021

romufc said:
I mean that's not the only reason Klopp took over because he could have got the same money elsewhere, are you trying to tell me Barca, Real, Juve won't pay the same wages for the manager?

There are more teams with money in the PL that can pay those wages. More teams, more chances. That's why the English 'domination' in the CL so far consists of five finals appearances for four clubs.

I mean the highest paid manager is Simoeone...

He wasn't when he was hired.
La Liga was a two-team league and then some variety below, until Simeone turned Atletico into the comfortable 3rd best team.

Finally, this thread is not about why English football dominates, its English sides dominating in Europe. When was the last time a mid table team done well in Europe?

Arsenal.

André Dominguez said:
In other leagues, two thirds of the clubs are struggling to pay their bills, let alone manage to hire players above 4/5M €.

Exactly. Granada was in this year's EL. The days when the PL would send its Granada equivalents to the EL are mostly gone.

Jacob22 · May 14, 2021

Money, corona and all the big teams in Europe are underperforming.

ForEverEleven · May 14, 2021

Money. With the financial advantage english clubs have, they should be dominating much more even.

miked99 · May 14, 2021

English clubs aren't dominating in the slightest. Current CL holders: German. Current EL holders: Spanish.

No-one cares if you get to a final or a semi-final, then lose. You dominate by winning repeatedly and that's it. Dominating is what Spanish clubs did for the best part of a decade where their clubs were winning the CL and the EL almost every season.

Until English clubs do that, they aren't dominating. They might well go on to do that in the coming years, but it's way too soon to say that.

Stacks · May 14, 2021

miked99 said:
English clubs aren't dominating in the slightest. Current CL holders: German. Current EL holders: Spanish.

No-one cares if you get to a final or a semi-final, then lose. You dominate by winning repeatedly and that's it. Dominating is what Spanish clubs did for the best part of a decade where their clubs were winning the CL and the EL almost every season.

Until English clubs do that, they aren't dominating. They might well go on to do that in the coming years, but it's way too soon to say that.

I you have on club winning it over and over again from the same country does this mean the nation is dominating?

DixieDean · May 14, 2021

miked99 said:
English clubs aren't dominating in the slightest. Current CL holders: German. Current EL holders: Spanish.

No-one cares if you get to a final or a semi-final, then lose. You dominate by winning repeatedly and that's it. Dominating is what Spanish clubs did for the best part of a decade where their clubs were winning the CL and the EL almost every season.

Until English clubs do that, they aren't dominating. They might well go on to do that in the coming years, but it's way too soon to say that.

Agreed. I don't get this knee jerk. It wasn't that long ago that English sides were crap in Europe.

giorno · May 15, 2021

Iker Quesadillas said:
Arsenal.

Only true this year, and then largely down to luck of the draw. The first really good team they came up against beat them

Exactly. Granada was in this year's EL. The days when the PL would send its Granada equivalents to the EL are mostly gone.

Not really, not yet. 17/18: arsenal, everton. 18/19: chelsea, arsenal, burnley. 19/20: united, arsenal, wolves. 20/21: spurs, arsenal, leicester. 21/22: looks like liverpool, spurs and west ham right now

Why are English sides dominating in Europe?

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