Our Progress

Ludens the Red · May 29, 2021

Bilbo said:
I forgive his deficiencies because his strengths and what he is doing for the club outweigh them, and no manager is perfect.

You saying that it is blatantly obvious he'll never win here IS an agenda. You've made up your mind already. Its unfair to write off a manager and a team that have made progress and doing so is evidence of an agenda I'm afraid.

As someone who’s said this I do take exception here.
If someone said “Fred will never be world class” or that “Lindelof will never be as good as Maguire” would this be evidence of an agenda? It all falls into the same category no? Lindelof and Fred have both made progress too.

It’s odd, like lots of people on here(one in particular) will slag off players night and day and say we have to make this, this and that signing but when anybody who wants the manager changed speaks he doesn’t wanna hear it.
I’m not saying you do it but I don’t understand the logic behind constantly going around demanding x,y and z player is replaced but turning around and having a go at anyone who demands a managerial change. We all have our opinions on what United need to do to become better, essentially that opinion revolves around replacing current members of the staff with staff who we think can do better.

meamth · May 29, 2021

Garethw said:
No Manchester United fan has an agenda against Ole for god’s sake! The agenda is against the club seemingly accepting mediocrity.

it’s blatantly obvious that Solskjaer will never be the manager to return this club to winning PL titles and CL’s.

Would you be this loyal to Roy Hodgson if he was manager and had an identical record to Solskjaer? Or do you forgive Ole’s major deficiencies because he’s a playing legend?

It's not obvious. How the heck do you know that? Gut feeling?

I find his trajectory, man management and squad harmony until now is impressive work. How many underqualified managers achieved what he achieved at a big club?

hobbers · May 29, 2021

meamth said:
How many underqualified managers achieved what he achieved at a big club?

Quite a few since he hasn't actually achieved anything yet.

Bilbo · May 29, 2021

Garethw said:
I’m mentioning Hodgson as a manager of similar ability level to Solskjaer for comparison.
People would be far less forgiving of the manager had he not played for the club.

Its only fair that, if you keep refuting the opinion that you have you have agenda, perhaps you should also listen to people when they say that their opinion on Ole has nothing to do with him being a player here

SAFMUTD · May 29, 2021

Eddy_JukeZ said:
There are people on this forum still excusing the loss vs Villareal because of our depth.

It's maddening to read.

Under their logic we need 3-4 more starters to beat a team like Villarreal, I can only imagine what the would say if asked what's needed to win the UCL.

SAFMUTD · May 29, 2021

meamth said:
How many underqualified managers achieved what he achieved at a big club?

By achieve you mean having a happy squad? Because besides that he hasn't achieve a thing.

Bilbo · May 29, 2021

Leroy The Red said:
As someone who’s said this I do take exception here.
If someone said “Fred will never be world class” or that “Lindelof will never be as good as Maguire” would this be evidence of an agenda? It all falls into the same category no? Lindelof and Fred have both made progress too.

No i don't think its the same thing. There are way more variables involved when it comes to being & judging a manager.

Gazza · May 29, 2021

Bilbo said:
I forgive his deficiencies because his strengths and what he is doing for the club outweigh them, and no manager is perfect.

You saying that it is blatantly obvious he'll never win here IS an agenda. You've made up your mind already. Its unfair to write off a manager and a team that have made progress and doing so is evidence of an agenda I'm afraid.

It's absolutely not. It's a prediction, based on factors that have been discussed in this thread. "Agenda" is such a lazy buzzword on here.

stw2022 · May 29, 2021

Everyone who has an opinion different to mine has an agenda. Sadly that’s genuinely the stating point for so many

Ludens the Red · May 29, 2021

Bilbo said:
No i don't think its the same thing. There are way more variables involved when it comes to being & judging a manager.

It’s not exactly the same but it originates from the same place. United fans wanting a better player/manager.

If a player makes the same mistakes and doesn’t develop his game enough to help the team move forward, there’s an argument to be made that potentially they should be replaced.

If a manager repeats mistakes over ten years into his managerial career those same arguments can be legitimately made.
For example -

2020 Europa league Semi final

- Team losing control in the game, looking tired and out of ideas. No subs or tactical changes until 87th minute...Lose game.

2021 Europa League final

- team losing control in the game, looking tired and out of ideas. No subs or tactical changes until 100th minute.....Lose game.

FA Cup semi final 2020

- Use first team in previous rounds against weaker opposition. Make loads of changes against strong opponent, fall two goals down then bring on first team players anyway. Lose game.

FA Cup Quarter Final 2021

- Use first team in previous rounds against weaker opposition. Make loads of changes against strong opponent, fall two goals down then bring on first team players anyway.

Bilbo · May 29, 2021

Gazza said:
It's absolutely not. It's a prediction, based on factors that have been discussed in this thread. "Agenda" is such a lazy buzzword on here.

stw2022 said:
Everyone who has an opinion different to mine has an agenda. Sadly that’s genuinely the stating point for so many

I agree it's an overused word, and on here is probably the only time I ever use it.

A prediction or an opinion is one thing. Saying its 'blatantly obvious' that a manager who has lifted this team to 2nd alongside multiple deep cup runs will never win anything is veering dangerously towards agenda IMO

Bilbo · May 29, 2021

Leroy The Red said:
It’s not exactly the same but it originates from the same place. United fans wanting a better player/manager.

If a player makes the same mistakes and doesn’t develop his game enough to help the team move forward, there’s an argument to be made that potentially they should be replaced.

If a manager repeats mistakes over ten years into his managerial career those same arguments can be legitimately made.
For example -

2020 Europa league Semi final

- Team losing control in the game, looking tired and out of ideas. No subs or tactical changes until 87th minute...Lose game.

2021 Europa League final

- team losing control in the game, looking tired and out of ideas. No subs or tactical changes until 100th minute.....Lose game.

FA Cup semi final 2020

- Use first team in previous rounds against weaker opposition. Make loads of changes against strong opponent, fall two goals down then bring on first team players anyway. Lose game.

FA Cup Quarter Final 2021

- Use first team in previous rounds against weaker opposition. Make loads of changes against strong opponent, fall two goals down then bring on first team players anyway.

I think you're cherry picking a little bit here. I could easily write a similar post detailing Peps repeated failings in the Champions League, and he's a genius.

I'm not discounting what you're saying here though, and as I've said I do think Ole makes mistakes. The big losses are always going to hurt and will be picked apart by many but its one side of a story isn't it? No mention of the great wins, the best performances, the numerous times we've come out a different side after half time and won matches we were struggling in.

Ole needs to improve certain aspects of his management. I think he needs to win a trophy next season. If he doesn't then it might well be time to say 'thanks so much and let's see what someone else can do with this squad'. Let's see what happens

acnumber9 · Oct 27, 2021

Apologies for the bumping of old thread but this debate came to mind when I saw somebody on Twitter talking about how Solskjaer dragged us off the floor and brought us back to back Champions League qualification. When Solskjaer took over we were sitting sixth in the league and had just been beaten 3-1 by Liverpool with Pogba sitting on the bench. We finished second in Mourinho’s second full season and had qualified for back to back Champions League’s. Talk of dressing room unhappiness was rife.

Fast forward to now, we are sitting sixth in the table having finished second in Solskjaer’s second full season. We have just been beaten 5-0 at home by Liverpool with Pogba sitting on the bench and talk of dressing room unhappiness is rife. In both seasons the writing had been on the wall since about halfway through the season we finished second. The parallels are remarkable.

Just remembered another parallel. Both were given a new contract before the shit hit the fan.

OleBoiii · Oct 27, 2021

acnumber9 said:
The parallels are remarkable.

There are 3 very distinct differences, though:

1. We're in October, not mid December. Even if you don't think that he can turn this around(I also have my doubts), there's still a significant difference between being 3 points behind top 4 with 29 games to go and being 11 points behind top 4 with 21 games to go.

2. The team is in a much better state now. Whoever takes over will have a much easier job than Ole had.

3. Mourinho was pretty damn miserable. He looked like he gave up even before the season started.

acnumber9 · Oct 27, 2021

OleBoiii said:
There are 3 very distinct differences, though:

1. We're in October, not mid December. Even if you don't think that he can turn this around(I also have my doubts), there's still a significant difference between being 3 points behind top 4 with 29 games to go and being 11 points behind top 4 with 21 games to go.

2. The team is in a much better state now. Whoever takes over will have a much easier job than Ole had.

3. Mourinho was pretty damn miserable. He looked like he gave up even before the season started.

On point 1 we had 14 points after 9 games. This season we have 14 points after 9 games.

On point 2 we do have a better team now. Which makes the results and performances even worse.

On point 3, that is true but he came off the back of a transfer window where we signed Fred and Dalot. Solskjaer just got Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo. Puts it in perspective.

Flytan · Oct 27, 2021

OleBoiii said:
There are 3 very distinct differences, though:

1. We're in October, not mid December. Even if you don't think that he can turn this around(I also have my doubts), there's still a significant difference between being 3 points behind top 4 with 29 games to go and being 11 points behind top 4 with 21 games to go.

2. The team is in a much better state now. Whoever takes over will have a much easier job than Ole had.

3. Mourinho was pretty damn miserable. He looked like he gave up even before the season started.

1) This isn't about just the start of the season. It's about his whole tenure since he was made permanent manager. This is just the culmination of not having a real plan for years.

2) Do they? I think he had one of the easiest jobs in the world. Mourinho turned the whole squad against him. All he had to do was come in and smile and it was job done. The issue was he had expectations because he was then promoted to manager. The squad just got battered 5-0 by Liverpool and have been mismanaged for years

3) He did. The board should have sacked him the moment they denied his request for Maguire. They didn't. They wanted to change how they were doing transfers, which is fair and modern, the issue is you can't take that power from a man like Mourinho without him losing his mind and becoming toxic. They should have waited until the next manager or fired him when they decided to change how the club was structured.

telstar96 · Oct 27, 2021

The club in theory is in a better state than it was when Mourinho left, especially with the number of players that were disgruntled at the time.

Fair play to Ole for resurrecting the careers of some of those players, Luke Shaw being the most obvious example.

Having said that, if these poor results keep happening, all that good work will begin to unravel, similarly to how José’s team descended into crisis towards the end of his reign. There are already murmurs of players being either unhappy or unsatisfied with Ole’s performances. The longer Ole stays, it will come to a point whereby the state of the team won’t be in a position any better than when José left, potentially even worse given that the squad isn’t getting any younger.

OleBoiii · Oct 27, 2021

acnumber9 said:
On point 1 we had 14 points after 9 games. This season we have 14 points after 9 games.

But that doesn't mean that we are guaranteed to copy the remaining fixtures as well.

There's a reason for why Mourinho wasn't sacked after 9 games. It's not a whole lot of data and there's too much left of the season to definitely conclude that he can't turn it around. At some point the data look bleak enough to warrant a sacking, which is what it ended up doing for Mourinho. I'm sure that Ole will get the same treatment if we're in a similar position in mid December(if he survives that long).

acnumber9 said:
On point 3, that is true but he came off the back of a transfer window where we signed Fred and Dalot.

Ole's 2020 summer wasn't much better than this and his start to the season was even rougher. He still kept his chin up. Mourinho is just a very miserable man when things aren't going exactly the way he wants it.

frostbite · Oct 27, 2021

OleBoiii said:
There are 3 very distinct differences, though:

1. We're in October, not mid December. Even if you don't think that he can turn this around(I also have my doubts), there's still a significant difference between being 3 points behind top 4 with 29 games to go and being 11 points behind top 4 with 21 games to go.

2. The team is in a much better state now. Whoever takes over will have a much easier job than Ole had.

3. Mourinho was pretty damn miserable. He looked like he gave up even before the season started.

After reading you first line, the following 3 very distinct differences came to my mind:

1. Mourinho had won a european cup with us.
2. Mourinho had won a domestic cup with us.
3. Mourinho had not relegated any teams.

Objectively, I think the situation is worse now!

acnumber9 · Oct 27, 2021

OleBoiii said:
But that doesn't mean that we are guaranteed to copy the remaining fixtures as well.

There's a reason for why Mourinho wasn't sacked after 9 games. It's not a whole lot of data and there's too much left of the season to definitely conclude that he can't turn it around. At some point the data look bleak enough to warrant a sacking, which is what it ended up doing for Mourinho. I'm sure that Ole will get the same treatment if we're in a similar position in mid December(if he survives that long).

Ole's 2020 summer wasn't much better than this and his start to the season was even rougher. He still kept his chin up. Mourinho is just a very miserable man when things aren't going exactly the way he wants it.

There’s also no guarantee we won’t do worse. Mourinho hadn’t just lost 5-0 at home to Liverpool. He also hadn’t spent as much money as Solskjaer and wasn’t in the job as long.

Ole is a more cheerful personality no doubt. I’m just drawing attention to some crazy parallels.

Adam-Utd · Oct 27, 2021

acnumber9 said:
There’s also no guarantee we won’t do worse. Mourinho hadn’t just lost 5-0 at home to Liverpool. He also hadn’t spent as much money as Solskjaer and wasn’t in the job as long.

Ole is a more cheerful personality no doubt. I’m just drawing attention to some crazy parallels.

Mourinho - horrible man management, boring football but managed some good results

Ole - decent man management, entertaining football, lacking tactically and ultimately nothing to show for it

Both not good enough.

Idxomer · Oct 27, 2021

Adam-Utd said:
Mourinho - horrible man management, boring football but managed some good results

Ole - decent man management, entertaining football, lacking tactically and ultimately nothing to show for it

Both not good enough.

No.

OleBoiii · Oct 27, 2021

frostbite said:
1. Mourinho had won a european cup with us.
2. Mourinho had won a domestic cup with us.
3. Mourinho had not relegated any teams.

Concerning your first 2 points: Mourinho had to win the EL or otherwise he would have gotten the sack seeing as he finished 6th in the league despite spending loads of money and getting a full season. That's a pretty strong motivator, wouldn't you say? As for the domestic cups, they have always been a very poor metric of a team's quality. At least for the top teams, as they don't field their strongest XI before they reach a semi/final.

I'd take finishing 2nd in the league and no trophy over 6th place and the EL trophy any day of the week.

As for the third point: Mourinho never managed a team in Cardiff's position either, so it's hardly relevant. Ole is not getting us relegated, for feck's sake.

redrobed · Oct 27, 2021

I’m of the opinion that Ole needs to go but it’s not nearly as extreme as many are making out. The squad is a lot better than when he joined. There was progression - he got us to 3rd - then 2nd - the problem is this season he absolutely had to be part of a title race. To at least feel like we’re still in it come April. The reality is now of we keep Ole we’ll come somewhere between 4th and 6th. Even if we get Conte - we come 4th. It’s this season the wheels have fallen off.

Regulus Arcturus Black · Oct 27, 2021

OleBoiii said:
Concerning your first 2 points: Mourinho had to win the EL or otherwise he would have gotten the sack seeing as he finished 6th in the league despite spending loads of money and getting a full season. That's a pretty strong motivator, wouldn't you say?

So he only won it cause he had to :lol:

OleBoiii · Oct 27, 2021

Regulus Arcturus Black said:
So he only won it cause he had to

That's not what I said? But of course both him and the team are going to be more motivated to win a minor trophy if it's the only way of getting CL football the next season.

RuudTom83 · Oct 27, 2021

Losing the shootout 10-11 was critical in Ole tenure, that trophy would have put a lot of the daft arguments to bed.

laughtersassassin · Oct 27, 2021

laughtersassassin said:
It's very overstated.

Anyway I'm not bothered at this stage. Just win the final so we can try push on.

Lose the final and it's not a good season even if people want to pretend that it is.

Im not happy to be right but right I was.

Regulus Arcturus Black · Oct 27, 2021

Was always something of “false progress” anyhow.

Took over a team that had months earlier finished a season on 81 points.
Ole went on to finish that half season on 66 points, followed by 66 points, followed by 74 points, with no trophy to show either.
And that after spending an absolute fortune, all the time looking disorganised as feck and as likely to go on a losing streak as a winning one. He’s on course now for 59 points, but I think this squad would eventually find another good run of form if he stayed and he’d get us his yearly 70-ish points.
That’s what Ole is, he’ll never turn a side into more than the sum of it’s parts. Give him more and more WC players and his squad will grab a few more points, but that’s the ceiling.

Bobcat · Oct 27, 2021

The squad has come leaps and bounds the last couple of years and right now thats the only progress worth mentioning really

Inb4 someone says signing Bruno, Varane and Sancho are "no brainers". People thought Miki, Sanchez and Di Maria also were "no brainer" signings at the time, and they all turned out to be pretty fecking bad in the end.

Silver lining here is that a competent coach could really do some damage with these players

GlasgowCeltic · Oct 27, 2021

It was honest of Ole to admit the 2nd place happened due to VVD injury

Ixion · Oct 27, 2021

GlasgowCeltic said:
It was honest of Ole to admit the 2nd place happened due to VVD injury

At the end of last season it was obvious we were not the 2nd best side in the country after Liverpool stuffed us at OT and Chelsea won the CL.

KeanoMagicHat · Oct 27, 2021

Our first team is unbalanced but has a lot of talent in it, a new manager could win a lot of games with the personnel we have, if they're brave enough to make a few tough calls and set up a functional shape. There's a lot of untapped potential there.

Flytan · Oct 27, 2021

RuudTom83 said:
Losing the shootout 10-11 was critical in Ole tenure, that trophy would have put a lot of the daft arguments to bed.

Yeah how dare we expect trophies after the club invests hundreds of millions

Tom Cato · Oct 27, 2021

acnumber9 said:
On point 1 we had 14 points after 9 games. This season we have 14 points after 9 games.

On point 2 we do have a better team now. Which makes the results and performances even worse.

On point 3, that is true but he came off the back of a transfer window where we signed Fred and Dalot. Solskjaer just got Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo. Puts it in perspective.

Point 2. We have better players.

Do we have a better team?

Stactix · Oct 27, 2021

Tom Cato said:
Point 2. We have better players.

Do we have a better team?

Definetly not.

Kurton · Oct 27, 2021

SAFMUTD said:
By achieve you mean having a happy squad? Because besides that he hasn't achieve a thing.

Even that's not true, there's only happy players that are his favorites.

UnitedSofa · Oct 27, 2021

redrobed said:
I’m of the opinion that Ole needs to go but it’s not nearly as extreme as many are making out. The squad is a lot better than when he joined. There was progression - he got us to 3rd - then 2nd - the problem is this season he absolutely had to be part of a title race. To at least feel like we’re still in it come April. The reality is now of we keep Ole we’ll come somewhere between 4th and 6th. Even if we get Conte - we come 4th. It’s this season the wheels have fallen off.

No way, there’s still a long season ahead and we can still challenge, what’s the point of writing it off now if we get Conte? If you’re gonna write off the season might aswell stick with Ole as he’ll probably manage top 4 by the skin of his teeth

Kurton · Oct 27, 2021

Bilbo said:
I think you're cherry picking a little bit here. I could easily write a similar post detailing Peps repeated failings in the Champions League, and he's a genius.

I'm not discounting what you're saying here though, and as I've said I do think Ole makes mistakes. The big losses are always going to hurt and will be picked apart by many but its one side of a story isn't it? No mention of the great wins, the best performances, the numerous times we've come out a different side after half time and won matches we were struggling in.

Ole needs to improve certain aspects of his management. I think he needs to win a trophy next season. If he doesn't then it might well be time to say 'thanks so much and let's see what someone else can do with this squad'. Let's see what happens

Why do you only take champions league failures for Pep, when not take the league, FA cup, league cup?

RuudTom83 · Oct 27, 2021

Flytan said:
Yeah how dare we expect trophies after the club invests hundreds of millions

Interesting response.

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